The Illogic of Transgender Logic

By Michael Brown Published on August 10, 2017

In keeping with standard transgender talking points, Planned Parenthood wants parents to teach their preschoolers that “their genitals don’t determine their gender.” Instead, gender is whatever you make it to be. As I’ve heard endlessly from LGBT activists, “Gender is not what’s between your legs, it’s what’s between your ears.”

But if that’s the case, when a biological boy is convinced he’s really a girl, why is he put on hormone blockers to stop the onset of puberty so he won’t develop as a boy? And why, when he’s old enough, does he get “sex change surgery” to change his genitals? I thought genitals didn’t determine gender?

Why can’t he just be a girl with male private parts? Why mess with his private parts if genitals have nothing to do with gender? And why put him on hormones for life so that he won’t grow a beard as a female? Isn’t that gender stereotyping? Who says that women shouldn’t have beards?

After all, we read today about “menstruating men” and “men” having babies. Why not bearded ladies? (Now that I think of it, Tom Neuwirth, aka Conchita Wurst, has basically said, “Yes, why not?”)

And why should a woman who has sex change surgery to become a man have her breasts removed? Why not keep her female organs intact and identify as a man who nurses his baby? (Now that I think of it, that’s been done too.)

You Can’t Have It Both Ways

Those who say that gender is a social construct turn around and reinforce that very construct.

We are told that the idea that boys like boy toys and girls like girl toys is sexist and bigoted. As Planned Parenthood explains, “In so many ways, society tells us how girls and boys are supposed to look, speak, dress, and act. In their attempt to sort out the world around them, your preschooler may form rigid ideas about gender and what it means for them.”

But when a little girl prefers boy toys and boy clothes and says, “I’m really a boy,” transgender activists say, “You see! We know she’s really a boy because she likes boy toys and boy clothes.”

I thought this was a bigoted way to think! I thought these were all social constructs. Why not say to the little girl, “But there’s no such thing as boy toys and boy clothes”? Something is not lining up.

It’s like PETA activists celebrating their latest victory with a meal at a Brazilian steak house. Or like lesbian activists celebrating the Obergefell decision by going out and marrying men. Here, in the case of transgender activists, those who argue that genitals don’t matter spend tens of thousands of dollars altering them. And those who say that gender is a social construct turn around and reinforce that very construct.

Once again, I do not belittle those who struggle with their gender identity. Instead, I long to see them find wholeness from the inside out.

I’m simply saying you can’t have it both ways. Either biological markers matter or they don’t. As for those with chromosomal or biological abnormalities, those difficult exceptions prove the rule: The biological norm for 99 percent of the population is male or female.

Even ‘Gender Anarchy’ Makes More Sense

According to GLAAD, “Gender identity is a person’s internal, personal sense of being a man or a woman (or boy or girl.) For some people, their gender identity does not fit neatly into those two choices. For transgender people, the sex they were assigned at birth and their own internal gender identity do not match.”

Why fixate so much on the “plumbing” if that is not what determines gender?

But what is “internal gender” if the categories of male and female are totally man-made? (Remember: We’re not just talking about biological sex here. We’re talking about gender categories.) And why fixate so much on the “plumbing” if that is not what determines gender?

It makes better sense to argue for “gender anarchy.” At least there’s a consistency there (although one that is in complete denial of the reality of God-given and God-established sex distinctions). Who needs husbands and wives or mothers and fathers or boys and girls? Let’s all be the same! That will even the playing field. Gender won’t exist at all.

When We Deny Reality, Social Madness Ensues

A British educational website offers, “Ten ways to challenge gender stereotypes in the classroom,” including, “Challenge stereotypes when you hear them.”

You can do this by asking, “Why can’t a boy wear pink? My Dad does.” Or, “Why can’t a girl like football? My wife plays for our local women’s team.”

But what if the boy who likes to wear pink says, “I’m really a girl! That’s why I love pink.” These same activists tell us, “Well, that proves that he really is a she and should be encouraged to identify as a girl. Let’s get him on hormone blockers.”

But I thought that liking pink wasn’t a girl thing after all?

Again, I don’t write this to belittle those who struggle, especially children. I write this to highlight the social madness that ensues when we deny the realities of biological sex and try to make gender into nothing and something at one and the same time.

So, parents and educators, when this stuff comes to a school near you, take a stand for sanity and truth. Your kids deserve it.

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  • Trilemma

    Why can’t he just be a girl with male private parts?

    I think that may be the best way to approach transgenderism. Everyone has to learn to live with their body. From some of the statistics I’ve seen, the best treatment for transgenderism is puberty.

    • Joel

      Well notice a lot of the focus today is on children and the push to affirm their feelings. That way they can pre-emptively stop the natural changes their bodies would otherwise go through during puberty. Puberty won’t help a biological male identifying as a female much when they are taking testosterone blockers.

      • Trilemma

        Maybe with more research we will be able to predict which individuals would still identify as transgender after puberty and only use hormone blockers with them.

  • Patmos

    “Gender identity is a person’s internal, personal sense of being a man or a woman”

    This is not even 2+2=5, this is 2+2=Coconut.

    It’s genuinely insane, and downright cruel, that people are trying to treat transgenderism as normal. The LGBT Movement is as backwards as could possibly be. They are entirely hypocritical for ignoring all the abuse that contributes to people being sexually confused and sexually perverted, and completely selfish for turning a blind eye towards those who are able to overcome the effects of any such abuse.

    The deaf, dumb and blind bleeding heart mentality behind the progressive mind that supports this stuff is going to lead nowhere, being void of any sort of wisdom, and will merely cover up the underlying darkness for temporary so called gains under the guise of tolerance.

    The light of Christ extinguishes all darkness, and the grace of God opens the door to that light, by the way of his word. If anyone be in Christ they are a new creature, old things are passed away and behold, all things become new.

    • Charles Burge

      Spot on. In order to “identify as” something, you need to have some idea of what are the distinguishing characteristics of the thing you are identifying as. In other words, if I’m going to “identify” as a woman, then I need to have in my mind some sort of definition of what a woman is. But wait… if I had that, then I would immediately realize that I am not, in fact, a woman. I don’t think any force but Satan could garble people’s minds so much that the can’t even see what’s directly in front of them.

    • RebelwithaCause

      “This is not even 2+2=5, this is 2+2=Coconut.” – thanks for making me laugh out loud.

      “The deaf, dumb and blind bleeding heart mentality behind the progressive mind that supports this stuff is going to lead nowhere” If only this was true. It is unfortuately leading to the collapse of the West, the rise of totalitarianism and an inevitable dystopia for the majority which will lead, as all marxists systems do, to oppression and state sponsored murder.

  • Jim Walker

    PP : Next time when you are eating a cumcumber, you are actually eating a pineapple.
    If you are not tasting the pineapple, your tongue is bigoted.

  • G Hazel

    this puts into words what I’ve been thinking for some time. There are a few people out there who are embracing getting rid of “gender” entirely and that’s actually more consistent with the overall theme of LGBT. If you’re not happy with social constructs of “gender” assignments, then just ignore them. BE Max Klinger, without shame or distinction.

  • azsxdcf1

    Madness. Sanity. Truth. Good words to use when debating these issues. Thank you, Dr Brown. Let’s all get real. Anybody remember REALITY? God will not be mocked.

    • Pigdowndog

      “God will not be mocked.”
      Yes he will. I mock him all of the time.
      Great fun!
      Shame he’s not real then it would be better fun.

      • Joel

        If you mock him all the time and he’s not real then what does that say about you? Just having some fun with you, but I at least can suppose you are real.

        • Pigdowndog

          I mock “him” as it winds the god-botherers up which is great fun.
          I’m the equivalent of a 17th century Bedlam visitor but not as cruel.

  • Olaf

    Your argument is do deep. So deep that 99.99% of the gender activists will not be able to understand it.

  • Stephen D

    Yes you are exactly right. In order for a boy to act out the fantasy that he is ‘identifying’ as a girl, he must do things that are standard markers of girlhood – wear a dress, have lots of pink-coloured things, put a ribbon in his hair, etc, and finally have his hormones and genitals reconstructed. In other words, he must adopt the standard stereotype so derided by the promoters of gender fluidity.

    • Rob Klaers

      You do know that pink wasn’t always a girl’s color, right? It was once seen as very masculine back in the 1800’s.

  • … and the extent to which gravity pulls me toward the soil does not determine my weight. Today, I identify as “featherweight.”

    • GLT

      Brilliant, sir. Simply brilliant.

      • glenbo

        >>”Brilliant, sir. Simply brilliant.”<<

        How does a person born intersex determine which
        "plumbing" parts to keep and which to surgically remove?

    • glenbo

      >>”Today, I identify as “featherweight.””<<

      Truly the stupidest remark about gender dysphoria made by someone who knows nothing about the subject.

      You voted for Trump, didn't you.

      • Mark Bradshaw

        Why is that a “stupid”? @Damon’s statement succinctly illustrates the massive problem with the idea that one can simply claim to be something they are actually not.

        Transgender (formally known as Gender Identity Disorder) is a psychological condition where the person does not feel the same gender as they actually are. If a biological man can claim to be a woman, then what is to stop a person from claiming (and feeling) to be anything else – like a cat, or a dog, or a rock?

        • glenbo

          Where do you get your information of gender dysphoria from?

          • Mark Bradshaw

            The DSM-5 articles found as a result of a Google search.

          • glenbo

            >>”The DSM-5 articles”<<
            Are mental disorders protected under the ADA?

          • Mark Bradshaw

            Yes. But the transgender community either has to realize that they suffer from a psychological disorder and rely on the ADA, or reject both. Which is it?

            And, general rejection of transgenderism has NOTHING to do with rejecting the actual disease/disorder – it has to do with policies being implemented that refuse to recognize it as such and attempt to normalize it – as if one can be something they are not.

          • glenbo

            >>”Which is it?”<<
            Are transgendered people disabled and therefore protected because they have a mental disorder?
            Or are they not mentally disordered?
            Which it is?

          • Mark Bradshaw

            Transgender people (people claiming to be transgender) suffer from a psychological disorder which makes them believe they are something they are NOT in reality. I have no problem recognizing that psychological disorder and treating it accordingly.

            The problem that I DO have is normalizing it and enabling their delusion. I have a problem being forced to recognize (under penalty of law) their delusion.

            I choose to live in reality where facts matter.

          • glenbo

            >>”I have no problem recognizing that psychological disorder and treating it accordingly.”<>”The problem that I DO have is normalizing it and enabling their delusion. “<<

            Why?

          • Mark Bradshaw

            Yes. It is a disability and should be treated as such.

            Because it is NOT normal. It is a delusion, but is not viewed as such. Enabling that delusion is not viewing it for what it is, but viewing it not as a disease/psychological condition.

          • glenbo

            >>”Yes. It is a disability and should be treated as such.”<<
            By your assertion, transgendered people must be protected under the ADA. (Americans with Disabilities Act.)
            Therefore, you cannot discriminate against them in any way.

          • Mark Bradshaw

            IT is not about discrimination. It is about being forced to pander to the delusions of people who believe they are something they are not. Refusing to buy into their delusion is NOT discrimination. Refusing to allow them to use the restroom/locker room of the gender they THINK they are is NOT discrimination. Not using the pronouns of their choice is NOT discrimination.

          • glenbo

            >>” It is about being forced to pander to the delusions of people who believe they are something they are not.”<>”Not using the pronouns of their choice is NOT discrimination.”<<
            What do you accomplish by not using another's preferred pronouns?
            What harm do you incur by using another's preferred pronouns?

          • Mark Bradshaw

            “What have you been “forced” to do?” —– AGAIN, I am forced to accept laws and regulations and policies that pander to the delusion of transgenderism. I am being compelled by policy to accept as normal the delusions of those claiming to be transgender.

            “What do you accomplish by not using another’s preferred pronouns?” —– Freedom of expression. The more important question is what does requiring specific speech accomplish – the answer is compelled speech (which is limitation of free speech).

            “What harm do you incur by using another’s preferred pronouns?” —– See above answer. Additionally, if laws here fall inline with Canada’s regarding use of pronouns – fines and jail. Forced/compelled speech is the ANTITHESIS of free speech.

          • glenbo

            Your claims of having been harmed by others having rights is absolutely fictitious and ridiculous.

          • Mark Bradshaw

            I have NEVER claimed to have been DIRECTLY harmed, but only to be subject to the harmful effects of such laws and policies. AGAIN, your reading comprehension skills are severely lacking.

          • glenbo

            >>” only to be subject to the harmful effects of such laws and policies.”<<
            Subject to?
            How so?

          • Mark Bradshaw

            Subject to the governmental/institutional/organizational penalties for violating such policies/laws.

            People who violate policies/laws/regulations are subject to penalties for those violations. These penalties can range from fines, expulsion, sanctions, etc… to actual legal adjudication (including incarceration). And, in the case of business owners, penalties can also include being forced to do something that goes against your conscience (or the alternative of going out of business).

          • glenbo

            >>”People who violate policies/laws/regulations are subject to penalties for those violations.”<>” And, in the case of business owners, penalties can also include being forced to do something that goes against your conscience (or the alternative of going out of business).”<<
            Wait…Are you saying Christian business owners actually have the ability to make rational choices to avoid breaking anti-discrimination laws?
            WOW!
            So what's the problem????

          • Mark Bradshaw

            “Awesome. You are catching up on the definition of unlawful discrimination.” —– Yes. And those laws allow for discrimination against people of faith.

            “Wait…Are you saying Christian business owners actually have the ability to make rational choices to avoid breaking anti-discrimination laws?” —– I am saying that Christian business owners are being compelled to either follow discriminatory laws and live their lives contrary to their faith, or go out of business. I am saying that laws that purport to be anti-discrimination are actually discriminatory against people of faith.

            The problem is laws (anti-discrimination laws) that protect only people in protected classes, while allowing for discrimination against those that are not in those classes.

  • JM

    There has always been male and female. Transgenderism is just something the LGBT created.

    • Rob Klaers

      If it was something that the LGBT created as you say, then perhaps you can explain how a number of Native American tribes recognized as many as 5 genders and with only two sexes.?

      And even sex isn’t binary.

    • glenbo

      >>”Transgenderism is just something the LGBT created”<<
      What evidence do you have to prove this statement isn't an outright lie?
      Where do you get your knowledge of gender dysphoria from?

    • Boris

      According to the Bible God is a tranny.

  • Mensa Member

    “You’re Wrong, Planned Parenthood. Genitals Do Determine Gender”

    I agree with Dr. Brown — if you dumb-down being a man to his genitals. But I was raised to believe that being a man was more than that.

    • Joel

      I have read a couple of your posts and sometimes hate the way people lash out at you. It is not very Christian like even though they may disagree. However, I have also read enough of your posts to know you are intelligent, and smart enough to know you are equivocating here. You and I (and Dr. Brown) both know that the most basic definition and indicator of male and female is based on the plumbing. This is consistent with all life that has a sex. If I showed you a photo of my dog positioned right and told you it was a girl, you would think I was a bit off by my statement and based on what is between his legs. What you constitute as “being a man” is a bit more complex of course, and not the same thing.

      • glenbo

        >>”You and I (and Dr. Brown) both know that the most basic definition and indicator of male and female is based on the plumbing.”<<
        How does a person born intersex determine which "plumbing" parts to keep and which to surgically remove?

        • Joel

          I figured this would be asked. Of course this is an incredibly small number of people compared to the population and is considered an abnormality not the norm. The point of this is just because there some people are born with a known defect, that wouldn’t change the basic definition. The fact that we select for intersex helps support this. To directly answer your question though, it sounds most reasonable to decide based on their genes. Whether they are xx or xy will determine how their body will react through their life.

          • glenbo

            >>”Of course this is an incredibly small number of people compared to the population”<>”The point of this is just because there some people are born with a known defect, that wouldn’t change the basic definition”<<
            Change the definition of what?

            What if the chromosomal genotype and sexual phenotype is other than XY-male and XX-female? How is the person's gender determined? What then does the medical
            community recommend?

          • Joel

            Hi Glenbo. Thank you for the response, although I can’t say I understand the purpose of your questions. To answer though, I don’t recall the exact number of intersexual births, so maybe you can enlighten me. I have heart the statistic in the past and it is a small fraction of a percent from what I recall.

            In your second question I was referring to changing the basic definition of male and female. Sorry if that was not clear.

            So for your third question you are referring to people who are both intersexual and also not xx or xy, correct? To be honest, I think believe the medical community recommends to chose and hope for the best. I’ve never heard a statistic on this combination, but feel free to enlighten me if you know.

          • glenbo

            >>” I can’t say I understand the purpose of your
            questions.”<>” I don’t recall the exact number of intersexual
            births, so maybe you can enlighten me.”<>” In your second question I was referring to
            changing the basic definition of male and female. Sorry if that was not clear.”<>” To be honest, I think believe the medical
            community recommends to chose and hope for the best.”<>”I’ve never heard a statistic on this combination”<>”You and I (and Dr. Brown) both know that the
            most basic definition and indicator of male and female is based on the plumbing.”<<

            True, but not for someone who is transgender.

            I responded to this assertion by you as you stated: “the
            most basic definition and indicator of male and female is based on the plumbing.”

            My question has not been answered. I shall ask it again:

            How does a person born intersex determine which
            "plumbing" parts to keep and which to surgically remove?

            Please do some research on this subject (or any subject) before you presume to be an authority on this issue. Otherwise, you have no business speaking in any authoritative capacity on a subject you are obviously
            knowledgably deficient in.

            When you fail to do so, you come off as not only being
            disingenuous, but also having a disingenuous intention.

          • Joel

            Thank you for your response again Glenbo. I have to ask though, are you angry about something? Your questions come off as more of an interrogation where you are trying to catch me in something, than a conversation. My apologies if you feel I am coming across disingenuous here. I have actually read quite a bit on this subject and probably much more informed than the average person. I may not be the foremost authority on all things related to this subject, but I don’t think I really need to be in order to be posting here. With that, I don’t recall making a single claim that is very controversial or even outside of fairly common knowledge on the subject.

            I also think you are showing your lack of knowledge on the subject a bit. Intersexual is not the same as transgendered. Thansgendered is where someone has a disconnect between the gender they mentally feel they are and the physical gender their body shows. While it is possible that a person who was born intersex is also transgendered, many transgendered were not born intersex. Furthermore, there are also intersex people who never have an issue which the gender that corresponds to the genitalia they have as adults. This is also the reason I said it was best to base which genitals to keep for intersex off their chromosomes. If their body at puberty is already genetically programmed towards a typical male or a typical female, do you think it would be better to go with it or against it?

            I don’t think that I need to argue that the basic definition for a male or female has always been based off whether someone has male genitalia or female genitalia. Maybe you have some other ideas for this, which I’m glad to hear. However, I think you would be hard-pressed to prove a point contrary to this. It’s also not that I could not have looked up the statistics on the number of intersex people (as can you), but as I’ve mentioned I have already heard the number and know it is incredibly small. If you know otherwise, prove me wrong. That way you can discredit me as you mentioned, but I don’t think you can.

            Finally, in reference to your main question about how to choose the gender for transgender people. This is actually the first time you’ve mentioned this if you look back, but I assume this is likely getting in the heart of the issue. I would say you have the question wrong. To show why I say this we need to both acknowledge that there is a physical gender and mental gender as I mention above. I assume there will be no issues in acknowledging this since the transgender community does. With some exceptions such as intersex, the rest of the transgender community were born as a perfectly normal biological male or female. So, for them gender is not assigned or chosen but acknowledged based on their physical attributes. At birth, their mental gender has not yet developed.

            Furthermore, I think we can all agree that transgendered have a very serious issue. The issue is in that their physical gender does not comport with their mental gender. Either their physical gender is off and their mental gender is the correct one, or their mental gender is off and their physical gender is the correct one. The odd thing is that with transgender people it is almost universally assumed that their mental gender is right in their physical one is wrong. I can’t imagine what people such as our family, our friends, or our neighbors are going through when they have this disconnect, so don’t get me wrong as my heart truly goes out to them. However, why should we assume that the mental gender is correct in the physical gender is wrong when every single cell in their body shows their physical gender through their chromosomes in this cannot be changed even with surgery? We see statistically, that at least for some people, their mental gender will change. This is supported by the fact that we see a lot of people discussing gender fluidity now, that their mental gender changes from one time period to another. Again, I could not imagine what it’s like to live with this. However, if we’re looking strictly at the evidence we have about the subject, it seems the physical gender is the more immutable of the two. So in the end, I would say the biological sex seems to be the more logical choice. If you disagree, I am happy to hear your rational and consider it. Maybe, I am missing something critical you are aware of.

          • Natureboi

            Glenbo:
            The “experts” on human sexuality who say negative things usually get their “expert” knowledge from anti-LGBT organizations. This includes The Church. They refuse to do proper research from proper sources because the anti-LGBT sources verify what they want to believe which is deeply rooted in bigotry which is planted by religion
            These hate groups create phony “science,” (Regnerus “study”) as well as create phony “scientific organizations” (American College of Pediatricians.) in order to convince people being LGBT is “harmful.” There is no reason to do this other than to generate animus towards all LGBT people.
            None of the “experts” on LGBT issues (such as Joel) examine actual science (APA,AMA, AAP, ASA etc..) yet they freely toss around their negative opinions as so-called “fact.”
            All the authentic scientific medical, psychological and sociological organizations unanimously agree that being transgender (or gay) is not a harmful condition and that children should be allowed to express themselves as they see fit if they have gender dysphoria.
            You will not likely get people like Joel to admit how intersex people decide which gender to be physically because it forces them to admit that gender, for some people is a mental condition. To admit this is to undermine and collapse the entire anti-transgender movement.

          • Joel

            Thank you for responding, and my apologies for the slow response. I thought I sent this yesterday, but for some reason it didn’t go through but I’m having to type again. I could be wrong on this, but are you angry about something. I only say that because it seems like your questions, crossed more like an interrogation then a conversation.

            I am sorry if you feel like I am coming off as disingenuous. I have actually read quite a bit on this subject and likely know much more than the average individual. I am by no means one of the world’s foremost experts on the subject, but I don’t think I need to be in order to be posting on this site. Furthermore, I don’t recall that I have said anything so far that is that controversial or far outside of pretty common knowledge on the subject. Not will I in this post.

            For example, I don’t think that I need support to show that the basic definition of male and female has been from whether someone has male genitals or female generals. This has always been the understanding and is applied universally across plants and animals of all species. Additionally, I could have looked up the percentage of intersex people (as can you) to provide an exact number, but the larger point was that percentage is very small. If I am wrong, prove me wrong. That will affect my credibility more then you simply asserting that I lack credibility simply because I didn’t provide a specific number, but instead relied on common knowledge of the subject.
            So it’s not that I don’t think I can back up my claim, but that I don’t think I need to. If you were someone else wants to show me wrong, I challenge you to do it or stop questioning the accuracy.

            I think you also show your ignorance on the subject by pressing the intersex question. A transgender person is someone who is physical gender does not match their mental gender, while as you mentioned an intersex person is someone who is born with both genitalia. While it is possible that some transgender people were born intersex, not all intersex people will also be transgender. There will obviously be people born intersex who maintain the gene tails that matches their mental gender as adults. However, the people born intersex only account for a fraction of the total population identify as transgender. Significant portion of people identifying as transgender were born with perfectly functioning male or female genitalia and are completely unrelated to intersex.

            This gets to your question about which sex to choose for transgender people. Looking back this is actually the first time you’ve asked this question, but I would assume it’s the one that is driving the rest. Well I would say that’s the wrong type of question. Do you understand why I say this, we have to go back to the fact that were transgender people, their physical gender does not comport with their mental gender. I assume we can both agree upon this since the transgender community does. Now when the baby is born, the doctor doesn’t call the baby male or female based on a choice, but simply acknowledges what is already there. Their is not a choice or assignment as some people say.

            I believe we can all agree that transgender people have a very serious issue. The issue being that their mental gender does not match their physicel gender. This means that either their mental gender is right and their physical gender is wrong, or it means that their physical gender is right and their mental gender is wrong. What I find odd is that it is almost universally understood among the transgender community today is that the mental gender is right and the physical gender needs changed. I say this is odd to me because every cell in a person’s body says what gender they are physically through the xx or xy chromosomes. Now obviously there are some exceptions to this, such as people born intersex or with variations of the xx or xy. However, at best, those variations are a subgroup of the total transgender population, and as I mentioned earlier only a portion of the people with the physical variation will identify as transgender. Now statistically, we do see that the mental gender of people can change. You’ll see this in statistics of people identify as transgender as teenagers, and you will also see this among the transgender community itself. This is evident in the notion of gender fluidity, that the mental gender will change over time. So we have a physical gender which is pretty much immutable (even with surgery) and mental gender which by all accounts seems to be more maluable or fluid. Which do you think it would be wise to base a decision on?

            Don’t get me wrong, I can’t begin to understand how challenging and confusing it may be for a family member, a friend, or a neighbor to go through life experiencing this issue and my heart goes out to all who suffer from this disconnect. However, based on the basic known facts I listed above ( and I admit those could change as we learn more about this) it seems to me that one focuses on what can be changed and what cannot. It saddens me that people have to go through this, and I wouldn’t wish it on anybody. You may disagree with what I have to say above, so feel free to share where you think I’m wrong or if you think you have a better suggestion and I’ll be happy to read it, consider it, and change my view if I am in fact wrong. Have a good day!

          • Preston Camp

            glenbo: “What if the chromosomal genotype and sexual phenotype is other than XY-male and XX-female? How is the person’s gender determined? What then does the medical
            community recommend?”

            I’m not an expert, but a quick glance at the wikipedia articles for XO, XX, XXX, XY, XYY, XXY, and XXYY reveals that the first three (X, XX, XXX) have female secondary characteristics, while the latter three (XY, XXY, XYY, XXYY) have male characteristics. So for a shorthand method, it seems like the absence or presence of a Y chromosome determines biological sex. Many folks who have the rare (non-XX/XY) combinations even have few symptoms, although in some cases they can be severe.

            There don’t appear to be viable options beyond those seven. People without either (OO), if they exist, won’t make it to birth, sadly. Ditto for someone with YY or XXXYYYYY. If people have these conditions, they are probably miscarried.

            Back to your question. There appear to be two reasonable ways to address this: either define each combination as a gender for a total of seven, or group the first three and the latter four together for a total of two. The first option seems unnecessary; folks who aren’t XX or XY probably have enough struggles and don’t need to be marginalized any further. And since they have female and male characteristics anyway, we can just group them with the rest of the men and women.

            So, as far as I can tell to the extent I’ve read, the question is pretty straightforward to answer. It’s a worthy question, glenbo. But not all worthy questions are hard. =]

            If anyone has any corrections or a complication to throw at my pat answer, please chime up.

          • glenbo

            Finally, someone who actually does research. Well done.
            >>”So, as far as I can tell to the extent I’ve read, the question is pretty straightforward to answer.”<<
            Can you please simplify your answer?
            What does the medical community recommend?

          • Joel

            I came across this response the other day, and thought it was ironic considering out conversation. If you knew this and was happy with his research, then why were you challenging me on my conclusions based on the same assumptions (just not drawn out to the same level of detail as his). That is one of the reasons I never answered questions like this in our discussion. You just keep coming with question after question, but I’m not a dog that has to go fetch your answers to every question you have simply so that we can arrive at the conclusion I had in the first place. I have a feeling you’ll ask me what I’m referring to (since I’ve gotten to know you much better now :-), so I will entertain you on this one.

            When discussing your previous question on how to best determine that biological sex of intersex I said, “To directly answer your question though, it sounds most reasonable to
            decide based on their genes. Whether they are xx or xy will determine
            how their body will react through their life.” To which you replied, “What if the chromosomal genotype and sexual phenotype is other than
            XY-male and XX-female? How is the person’s gender determined?” And Preston’s response showed that all variations still basically revert back to a biological male or female based on the presence of the Y chromosome which comports with the line of reasoning I was using that you still continued to question.

          • glenbo

            What does the medical community unanimously recommend?

        • Joel

          By the way thank you for the response as it is a very good question!

    • Howard Rosenbaum

      You’re correct. It goes further than mere genitalia. Theres those nasty little molecules to deal with. You know, DNA. Getting ones “male hood” blown off in a war zone will not a woman make , anymore than a “surgical strike” at the same target will. Perhaps the book & film “Catch 22” forecast the exasperation these “new” gender fluidity rules impose upon society. The idea as noted by Mr Brown that external changes are not non conformity to the established norms but are actually an affirmation of those norms should be self evident. Yet apparently it is not.
      You can’t say you’re crazy if you’re really crazy, because a crazy person would never know they were crazy. You can’t substantiate any claim to being gender fluid by reducing ones gender to the rejection of their homegrown parts while substituting them w/counterfeit counterparts. Even the real deal were it possible would create the same appearance of hypocrisy . So while gender fluidity seems crazy to those not so “enlightened” the reality is it’s really much more of a contrivance than a mental condition …

  • glenbo

    Can anyone tell me what the point of this completely uninformative article is?
    Other than to generate a negative attitude about a group of people whose condition is absolutely nobody’s business?
    Anyone? Please?

    • beth

      It actually is everyone’s business, especially when transpersons insist on accommodations.

      • glenbo

        >>”It actually is everyone’s business>>”

        No, beth. It is NOT “everyone’s business.

        >>”especially when transpersons insist on accommodations.”<<
        That's not your business either. You don't get to decide what accommodations others can use.

        • beth

          When I say accommodations, I am referring to automatic special considerations due those with a disability, such as ADD, ADHA, learning disabilities, hearing impairment, cognitive disabilities, epilepsy, CP, and other medical or health issues affecting learning or employment. All of these persons must have tremendous documentation verifying their medical condition and the requirement for time or space or special needs. Transpersons only need to announce that for that day they are trans and so they must be allowed in areas regarded are private. The next day they could be back to their birth assigned gender and not require a urinal. It’s that fluid.
          Further, Courts across the country have recognized that there is a constitutional right to bodily privacy. Children at school, employees at work — and even felons in prison — have the right to not be viewed in a state of undress by those of the opposite sex. Schools shouldn’t be passing policies that strip students of privacy rights that even felons enjoy.

          • glenbo

            >>” Transpersons only need to announce that for that
            day they are trans and so they must be allowed in areas regarded are private.”<>” Schools shouldn’t be passing policies that strip
            students of privacy rights”<>” The next day they could be back to their birth
            assigned gender. It’s that fluid”<<

            Can you please show me where you get your knowledge of gender dysphoria from?

          • Mark Bradshaw

            “Can you please show me where you get your knowledge of gender dysphoria from?” —– It is NOT just about Gender Identity Disorder. It is about CLAIMS of being transgender – which includes WAY MORE than just man or woman. It includes gender identities like (in NY City alone):
            Bi-gendered
            Cross-dresser
            Drag King
            Drag Queen
            Femme Queen
            Female-to-Male
            FTM
            Gender Bender
            Genderqueer
            Male-to-Female
            MTF
            Non-Op
            HIJRA
            Pangender
            Transexual/Transsexual
            Trans Person
            Woman
            Man
            Butch
            Two-Spirit
            Trans
            Agender
            Third Sex
            Gender Fluid
            Non-Binary Transgender
            Androgyne
            Gender Gifted
            Gender Blender
            Femme
            Person of Transgender Experience
            Androgynous

  • Sunny1285

    Why not decide the everyone wears pants on Monday, Wednesday, Friday and dresses of Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday. Sunday everyone wears their birthday suit.

    • glenbo

      >>”Why not decide the everyone wears pants on Monday, Wednesday, Friday and dresses of Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday. Sunday everyone wears their birthday suit.”<<
      Yes!!!
      And while you are at it, you can tell everyone which God to mandatorily worship and which religion takes hold of our government and subsequently how we can live our private lives!

  • glenbo

    >>>”Is it harmful to allow a pre-teen biological male to take hormone blockers to counteract puberty and they go through a surgery?”<<

    Yes.
    It should not occur until said individual reaches the age of consent.

    Same thing goes for "conversion therapy."

    But you didn't answer my question:

    How does a person born intersex determine which
    "plumbing" parts to keep and which to surgically remove?

    • Joel

      Hi Glenbo. Thank you for your response and your honesty. As far as your question goes, I have typed a response to the full post twice that keeps getting taken down (not by me). I’ll do a partial excerpt to this particular question and then I will see if I can do the full post again as it pertains to what I said to Natureboi. Here is the specific answer:

      “I think you also show your ignorance on the subject by pressing the intersex question. A transgender person is someone who is physical gender does not match their mental gender, while as you mentioned an intersex person is someone who is born with both genitalia. While it is possible that some transgender people were born intersex, not all intersex people will also be transgender. There will obviously be people born intersex who maintain the genitals that matches their mental gender as adults. However, the people born intersex only account for a fraction of the total population who identify as transgender. Significant portion of people identifying as transgender were born with perfectly functioning male or female genitalia and are completely unrelated to intersex.”

      Looking back, I have also answered this question directly. I think on ought to select based on their chromosome pairing. That way their “plumbing” will continue to match the rest of their physical body through adulthood.

      • glenbo

        >>” I think you also show your ignorance on the
        subject by pressing the intersex question.”<>” While it is possible that some transgender people
        were born intersex, not all intersex people will also be transgender.”<>” However, the people born intersex only account for
        a fraction of the total population who identify as transgender.”<>” Significant portion of people identifying as
        transgender were born with perfectly functioning male or female genitalia and are completely unrelated to intersex.”<>”I think on[e] ought to select based on their
        chromosome pairing. That way their “plumbing” will continue to match the rest of their physical body through adult hood.”<<

        Incorrect.

        Not all intersex individuals have a typical XX or XY
        genotype as there are many variations.

        This brings us back to my original question as well as three
        more:

        1) What does the medical community universally recommend
        parents do when a child is born intersex?

        2) How does a person born intersex determine which "plumbing"
        parts to keep and which to surgically remove?

        3) Why are some people transgender?

        4) What is the source of your knowledge on both subjects?

        • Joel

          Hi Glenbo. Thank you for the response and although I appreciate the dialog, I don’t know that perpetual questions are all that helpful. You seem to think that I am missing something critical. Can I suggest that you let me know? What am I missing?

          • glenbo

            Let the child grow into his/her intellectual gender before
            doing any surgery.

            This proves that gender can be just as psychological as
            biological.

            Who is anyone else to decide other than those who are at the
            center of it.

          • Joel

            Thank you for the clarification Glenbo. I would say we aren’t too far off from each other here. I also acknowledge their is a intellectual, or mental gender as well as a physical gender. When the two (intellectual gender and physical gender) are mismatched is exactly what is called transgendered. The main question I would have for someone who approaches it as how you do above, is why ought we assume that the intellectual gender is correct and the physical gender is wrong and needs changed? I think the idea being promoted today of gender fluidity gives us more cause to question this assumption. If someones intellectual gender can change over time, however someone’s biological gender technically never changes even with surgery (surgery doesn’t change their chromosomes, so their body continues to treat them as their biological sex, which is why sexual reassignment surgery is followed by hormone therapy for life), then wouldn’t it be a more logical decision to work on changing what seems to be more fluid and not try to change something that cannot?

            I’m all about giving adults the freedom to choose what they want, and if an adult who is well informed about the positives and negatives of the options chooses to proceed, who am I to stop them. However, I care about these people too and what what is best for them. Given that they have a misalignment between the intellectual and biological genders, I would also be curious how effective surgery is for the people who go through it. If there is a significant portion for whom surgery doesn’t correct their mental well being, or even worse, they later intellectually revert back to their original biological gender, then we’ve effectively left them with an irreversible surgical procedure where another means of treatment would have been better suitable. I this is the case are we really helping someone who deals with this?

            I’ve tried to post a previous response to you that I mention above and even in a response to Natureboi about this that I think would add some further clarification, but unfortunately it keeps getting removed for some reason. I assume that you haven’t had the chance to read either of the three before they were taken down.

            I’m just curious to get your thoughts on this. At least we both seem to agree that this is something that shouldn’t be pursued with children and teens and that is something I personally think is very important and seems to be ignored.

          • glenbo

            >>” The main question I would have for someone who
            approaches it as how you do above, is why ought we assume that the intellectual gender is correct and the physical gender is wrong and needs changed?”<>” I think the idea being promoted today of gender
            fluidity gives us more cause to question this assumption.”<>” If someone’s intellectual gender can change over time—— wouldn’t it be a more logical decision to work on changing what seems to be more fluid and not try to change something that cannot?”<>” I’m all about giving adults the freedom to choose what they want”<>” unfortunately it keeps getting removed for some reason.”<<

            Shorten your posts.
            Post only half, then go to edit and post the other half.

            What others do with their bodies and lives is none of your business, especially when you subscribe to anti-LGBT hate.

          • Joel

            Hello Glenbo. I hope you are enjoying your day. I did just read your response and wanted to do a quick follow up. Are you mad at me or angry about something. I may be wrong, but it feels like your questions are more interrogational as opposed to conversational, and that you are trying to trap me in something. Kind of like the use of the word “promoted” as I’ll get to.

            First I want to follow up to your assertion that “One cannot make assumptions as to the mental condition of others. “We” cannot assume what is “correct” for anyone other than ourselves.” Now that strikes me as a very peculiar thing to say in that you would have to ignore all psychiatry, psychology, or any other mental science in order to make this claim. I like to use clear cut examples to help bring things to the forefront. As a clear cut example, couldn’t someone use this same thinking to justify someone who claims to be a duck, the tooth fairy, or a teanage mutant ninja turtle and truly believes it. Forgive me if this is a bit brash and I’m not trying to equate this with what transgender people go through, but your logic would work for them as well. If someone actually made these claims, we would think they are a bit “off” at the very least, and if they are a danger to themselves or others we would put them in an institution. However, you are saying that we cannot assume what is correct for them or any assumptions on their mental condition, is that correct?

            Second, this claims also assumes that there may not be a more effective way to help people suffering because their mental gender does not match their physical gender. You give no evidence to support this, but simply state that in essence that only an individual can decide what will work for them. Tell me, if I have cancer and I decide that eating Poptarts will cure me of it, do you think that will work? That is meant to be another clear case example in the form of a retorical question. 🙂 In the end, I think you have no business making that claim. I agree that there may be some latitude for the best approach to addressing this on an individual basis because people’s situations are different, but that doesn’t mean that there isn’t a best approach that would be more effective as a whole. I am a parent and as a parent, I’m more concerned about finding a solution that works for my children’s ailments than I am about finding one that they think is correct for them. If I’m fixing a headache and can find a medicine that tastes good and fixes the headache, then great. However, if I’m giving them an antibiotic and they don’t like the taste of it, but would rather have the headache medicine because it tastes better than the antibiotic, that doesn’t persuade me to change as I’m more interested in what works. If we care about our transgender family, friends, and neighbors then we should focus on what works as well. That may very well be that the intellectual gender, but my point is that we can’t rule the other out even if past attempts have been successful.

            Now to answer your question on the word promoted and clarify since you’ve already assumed (and written off my credibility :-)), what I mean is simply that this is what people are saying today. This wasn’t always the case as gender fluidity is a pretty new concept. I also say promoted, because it strikes me as odd. It doesn’t seem to me that transgender people feel that gender is so fluid, otherwise they wouldn’t go through all the difficulty, expense, and issues related with having sexual reassignment surgery if they thought there gender would revert back at a later time. The fact that it’s a fairly new concept and it seems to contradict the notion that has been common int he past of a “woman trapped in a man’s body” is why I used the word promoted.

            The other questions about my views on gay marriage and abortion, while I’m happy to discuss them if you would like, I would much rather stick to one issue at a time if that is alright with you. You tend to ask a lot of questions and I do my best to answer all of them, however, I don’t know that you fully addressed mine. To help, I’ll condense them into two.

            1.) If we are learning that intellectual gender is fluid and can change, while ultimately biological gender is more static, then wouldn’t it make more sense to focus our efforts on the intellectual aspect in order to get the two to match?

            2.) If we were to learn that sexual reassignment surgery is not producing lasting results for a significant portion of transgendered people, or if it was shown to be less effective then would it be the loving approach to promote to someone you care about?

          • glenbo

            >>”However, you are saying that we cannot assume what is correct for them or any assumptions on their mental condition, is that correct?”<>”The fact that it’s a fairly new concept and it seems to contradict the notion that has been common int he past of a “woman trapped in a man’s body” is why I used the word promoted

            “<<
            It's not a "new concept." It's a misunderstood concept, as you demonstrate.

          • Joel

            Did you notice the post that I made two hours ago was taken down? Interesting for an “open discussion” site especially because I didn’t say anything too controversial.

            I think you are on thin Ice with both these statements Glenbo. I can’t say what someone else can believe, however we can evaluate the truth of those beliefs. I’m pretty sure that is what you’ve been doing to me (though in the form of questions) and you’ve definitely evaluated the belief of organizations you say are anti LGBT above. Is being anti LGBT wrong? If so, you’ve contradicted your own statement. Furthermore, in saying this, you’ve just said that being transgender is a belief. Are you sure you want to stick with that statement?

            Also if gender fluidity is not a new idea, how long has it been around? I would also be curious for you to tell me how I am misunderstanding it.

          • glenbo

            >>” Is being anti LGBT wrong?”<>”If so, you’ve contradicted your own statement.”<>”Furthermore, in saying this, you’ve just said that being transgender is a belief.”<>”Also if gender fluidity is not a new idea, how long has it been around?”<>” I would also be curious for you to tell me how I am misunderstanding it.”<<
            Your hate-group paralleling statements speak for themselves.
            Perhaps you can cite your source of knowledge on the subject.

          • Joel

            I can point the contradiction out to you if you like. Earlier you posted “Person A cannot presume to know what is right or wrong for person B to believe.” Now if Person A (Glenbo) cannot presume to know what is right or wrong for person B (anti LGTB person) to believe, then how can you say being anti LGBT is wrong for anyone but you. It may be right or even good for person B under this logic.

            Now you also said something that seems interesting because you seem to oppose much of what I said above. You said that being transgender is a psychological condition that confilicts with biology. Now if it is a psychological condition, then wouldn’t one treat a psychological condition with psychology?

            Now looking back, I don’t think I’ve said one hateful thing about transgender people and I genuinely want what is the best for them. It strikes me as odd the you say that my statements parallel hate groups. Maybe, you are right that my statements parallel them, but that would make me question how hateful they are. The only think I’ve read in our back and forth in a prejudice manor you toward these groups. Maybe they are right or maybe they are wrong, as I don’t know all of their views, but simply calling them names doesn’t help our discussion. And asking me for the source of my knowledge on the subject is a bit of a silly question. I’ve read, listened to, and watched numerous articles from a number of media sources on this over the past couple of years, and also have studied some peer reviewed journals. If I could simply list one source, I don’t think I would be talking about it.

            In reference to religion, you say its nothing but a belief. The funny thing about that is it could be wrong or it could be right. Even within religion itself, either the Muslims are right and the Jews wrong, or the Buddhists are right and the Hindus are wrong, or the Christians are right and the Mormons are wrong, but they can’t all be right because they contradict each other. Therefore either one is right, or all the rest of them are wrong, in which case atheism is true. But before you go jumping to atheism, that means that you can’t say being anti LGBT is wrong, because there is nothing that is actually wrong in atheism as right and wrong in atheism is nothing more than one’s personal preference such as what flavor of ice cream they like. If there is even one thing in this world that is right/good or wrong/evil that holds true for everyone despite their personal opinions, then there has to be something that transcends us as the moral law giver.

          • glenbo

            >>” Now if Person A (Glenbo) cannot presume to know
            what is right or wrong for person B (anti LGTB person) to believe, then how can you say being anti LGBT is wrong for anyone but you. It may be right or even
            good for person B under this logic.”<>” Now if it is a psychological condition, then
            wouldn’t one treat a psychological condition with psychology?”<>” And asking me for the source of my knowledge on
            the subject is a bit of a silly question.”<>” you can’t say being anti LGBT is wrong”<>” there has to be something that transcends us as
            the moral law giver.”<<

            Religion is not a good source of morality.

          • Joel

            Hi Glenbo! I fully understood what you were saying in your post. I simply plugged in so what else per person A and person B in order to show the poor logic of your statement.

            I’m going to have a little fun with you too and take you up on your offer. Why don’t you tell me your source of knowledge on the subject? You said you were gladly site it.

            Finally, if God is a poor source of morality, why don’t you tell me what is a good source? I thought that question through long and hard, so be prepared to be challenged. 🙂

          • glenbo

            >>” I’m going to have a little fun with you”<>” Why don’t you tell me your source of knowledge on
            the subject? You said you were gladly site it.”<>“if God is a poor source of morality, why don’t you
            tell me what is a good source?”<<

            Empathy for our fellow man and the desire to ensure the well-being of ourselves and those we live with within our social circles.

            These attributes are innate within us as a result of
            evolutionary natural selection.

            Those who care for others protect each other and the clan thrives.

            Those who don’t won’t likely survive to pass these genetic traits on…traits that don’t magically appear, but have slowly emerged over multiple generations over vast time.

            If we as a species failed to have empathy for our fellow man and failed to care about the well-being of each other, we as a species would not have likely evolved as far as we have in the last 150 to 250 thousand years
            of human’s known existence.

            But if you are going to say “God has written it on our hearts,” you first have to prove God exists.

            Then you have to prove that the human heart (a muscle that pumps blood) is able to store cognitive information.

            A bad source is one that is derived only out of fear of
            eternal punishment.

            A bad source is one that promotes immoral behavior, such as slavery, rape and child murder…for starters.

            If you need a dictator and a messed up instruction book to know how to be good, you are inherently a messed up person.

          • Joel

            That was my point in saying I am going to have some fun with you Glenbo, I don’t have a single source, but many that have helped me to get to where I am at today. I would suspect you couldn’t name a single source or even a few, which is why I turned the question around.

            Now I’ve heard your view on morality before and it doesn’t work for a couple of reasons. Let’s suppose that everything you say developed as it did, well that doesn’t make empathy or anything else you mentioned good in a moral sense, it simply means it was helpful for survival. Which also begs the question, why ought we say our survival is a good thing. Maybe we are a cancer to the planet.

            The second issue is that if your premise is true, it would make empathy or any of the qualities objectively true (true for all people independent of personal opinion) as being morally good. At best,even if I conceited my first point that this shows a moral good, then all you’ve demonstrated is that they were good for the specific people at that time. They wouldn’t necessarily be a moral good for us today, because our situation has changed and survival in that way is not as big of a challenge.

            The third issue is that you would have to show me how feelings like empathy and compassion for others get transmitted through DNA from one generation to the next. For evolutionary natural selection to work as you propose, you have to make this fit into DNA and I challenge you to find a respected scientist that backs that premise.

            You can’t get morality through natural processes because morality is about right and wrong and what one ought to do, and you can’t get an ought from DNA and chemical reactions in the body. Keep trying though and I’ll be happy to show that they don’t work, but the only option is to deny an actual morality, which also means that you have to give up an actual right and wrong, such as being anti-LGBT. I only bring that up because you already said it’s actually wrong and not just your opinion.

          • glenbo

            >>” I don’t have a single source”<>” Maybe we are a cancer to the planet.”<>” you would have to show me how feelings like
            empathy and compassion for others get transmitted through DNA from one generation to the next.”<>” The third issue is that you would have to show me
            how feelings like empathy and compassion for others get transmitted through DNA from one generation to the next.”<>” For evolutionary natural selection to work as you
            propose, you have to make this fit into DNA”<>” You can’t get morality through natural processes
            because morality is about right and wrong and what one ought to do, and you can’t get an ought from DNA and chemical reactions in the body.”<>” you have to give up an actual right and wrong,
            such as being anti-LGBT”<>” you already said it’s actually wrong and not just
            your opinion.”<<

            What did I way is “actually wrong?”

          • Joel

            Happy Thursday Glenbo! Did you even read what I said about sources? My point wasn’t that I have none, but that I have many and couldn’t simply reference one or even a few to show where my views came from. For example I have followed everything from the scientific literature to personal experiences on this as well over the years. That is why I say the question is funny. If you want to pick a particular statement and asked someone to back that up with a source then I understand that. However, to take a broad and complicated subject like this and say give me your source, as though it’s a single thing, doesn’t make much sense.

            Now with regard to morality, you mainly referenced my points on DNA, does that mean that you concede the first two that 1. Beneficial for survival doesn’t mean the same as morally good (I assume you agree since you indicated that you felt that humans are a growing cancer for the planet) and 2. That even if it was conceded that these things were good, it wouldn’t make them objectively good? I want to be sure, because as I see it these are more detrimental to your ideas then DNA is even though the DNA aspect can be a defeater in its own right. I will save us some time and suggest something That may be more beneficial to you. As opposed to claiming that morality is transmitted through evolutionary processes, I would suggest you say it’s handed down through generations through teaching and traditions because at least that is plausible. It doesn’t sound as though you are tied to the DNA and can see the issues with it. Natural selection is about passing on genetic traits and I don’t disagree with that. What you won’t be able to do is make morality a genetic trait. If you disagree, as I mentioned above find me someone who makes a good case for this. I’ve heard the top debaters on it and I don’t know anyone to go that route.

            I would suggest you reread my last paragraph to clarify your last two questions. The point was, absent of a moral law giver who’s authority covers everyone (i.e. God) there is no transcendent means of achieving an actual right or wrong. Therefore, on strictly relying on natural causes forces one to have to abandon the idea of an actual right or wrong, because the concepts of right and wrong become subjective and only applicable to each individual. My point was you could say being anti-LGBT was wrong, but you couldn’t expect to hold anyone else accountable to that because their morality may differ from yours.

            To answer your last question, two days ago at the very beginning of your post you said that being anti-LGBT is wrong. Now is it just wrong for you, or is it wrong for everyone? If it is wrong for everyone, then we have the issues I mentioned above where one cannot account for an objective morality apart from God.

          • glenbo

            >>”wouldn’t it make more sense to focus our efforts on the intellectual aspect in order to get the two to match?”<<
            1) Why? What makes it any of your business?
            Do you support sexual conversion therapy?
            2) Every case is unique and not your business to interfere.

          • Joel

            That was quick my friend. However, your answers are a dodge as you don’t answer either question. I think I’m interested in this for the same reason you are, because I care about these people. I want to see them helped, and when we are closed minded to potential opportunities to do so because of our preconceived prejudices then we are doing no one a favor. Do you realize that your answers seem to be so opposed to a possible different way of thinking about this that you can’t even bring yourself to answer a couple of questions that I phrased in a way that one couldn’t help but agree with them?

            To answer your question, I would only see sexual conversion therapy as a last resort if all other options had failed. That is the way I would do it if it were me given what I know. To be frank, I would even hesitate at that because it seems to me like sexual reassignment surgery is like putting a band aide on a gaping wound and not truly addressing things. If it was shown to work consistently over the long term though, then yes I would support it.

          • glenbo

            What is the point is denying gay people the right to be gay?
            What is the point in denying transgendered people the right to be transgender?
            What is accomplished in doing this?

          • Joel

            Glenbo that is a bit of a red herring my friend. I don’t think we’ve said anything about being gay or about preventing transgender about being transgender. Our whole conversation from my recollection has been about how to deal with the issue. It seems to me that transgender people don’t want to be transgender as they want their intellectual gender to match what people physically see. So, even these questions are avoiding the subject.

          • glenbo

            >>” It seems to me that transgender people don’t want to be transgender as they want their intellectual gender to match what people physically see.”<<
            Why don't they want to be transgendered?

          • Joel

            It seems as though you are more comfortable asking the questions than answering them Glenbo. I have to say this is really a bizarre question. If someone wants to remain in a state where their intellectual gender is different then their physical gender, they most certainly can. To even propose that discounts the incredible struggle and anguish transgender people go through in living a life as the wrong gender. Do you really think people WANT to live like that?

          • glenbo

            >>” Do you really think people WANT to live like that?”<<
            If you knew a trans or gay person (I know MANY) you would never think to ask this stupid question.
            But let me ask you this:
            Why WOULDN'T they want to live their lives as it was created?
            Why SHOULDN'T they want to live their lives at it was created?
            Why shouldn't they be ALLOWED to live their lives as they were created?
            What's it to you?

          • Joel

            Glenbo you keep bringing in gay people to the conversation and that is completely separate from transgender other than the acronym LGBT. Now I grant that are transgender people that are gay, but its not like one causes the other. I will admit that I can’t say that I can think of any of my friends who are transgender (to my knowledge at least), but I have many good friends who are gay. I don’t see what that has to do with any of this. Simply because you know many transgendered people (or if I did) that wouldn’t necessarily make us experts on all things transgendered.

            I also don’t know how you can say my question is stupid. I don’t know if you’ve noticed this, but my whole conversation so far has been about attempting to take things commonly know and admitted to by all sides and drawing inferences to those based on logic. The common knowledge that we both agree upon is that transgendered people have a mismatch between their intellectual gender and their biological gender. Its also common knowledge that they aren’t satisfied with this otherwise their would be no effort to do gender conversion therapy, sexual reassignment surgery, or even dress as another gender. No ones not allowing or preventing them from living the lives as they are created, but it’s the fact that they want to change from how they are created that we are even having this discussion. I like you and I’ve enjoyed our conversation Glenbo, but if you can’t even affirm that, then I don’t know why we’re even talking my friend.

          • glenbo

            >>” Its also common knowledge that they aren’t
            satisfied with this”<>” it’s the fact that they want to change from how
            they are created that we are even having this discussion.”<<

            It’s a “fact” that all trans people want to change from how they are created?

            What is the source of your knowledge on this?

            In order to continue this conversation on an intellectual
            and scientific manner, I would need for you to cite your source of information.

            It shouldn’t be that hard.

        • Joel

          Here was my previous response to the post from 8 days ago where you started our quoting me on how I did not understand the purpose of your post. I may be wrong, but I’m sending it as it may address what you think I am missing, or maybe not as I’ll have to wait for your reply to tell me. Hopefully, this one doesn’t get removed again. I don’t think I’m saying anything too controversial here, but here it is:

          Thank you for your response again Glenbo. I have to ask though, are you angry about something? Your questions come off as more of an interrogation where you are trying to catch me in something, than a conversation. My apologies if you feel I am coming across disingenuous here. I have actually read quite a bit on this subject and probably much more informed than the average person. (It sounds like you have too) I may not be the foremost authority on all things related to this subject, but I don’t think I really need to be in order to be posting here. With that, I don’t recall making a single claim that is very controversial or even outside of fairly common knowledge on the subject.

          (I obviously copied and pasted this paragraph earlier) I also think you are showing your lack of knowledge on the subject a bit. Intersexual is not the same as transgendered. Transgendered is where someone has a disconnect between the gender they mentally feel they are and the physical gender their body shows. While it is possible that a person who was born intersex is also transgendered, many transgendered were not born intersex. Furthermore, there are also intersex people who never have an issue which the gender that corresponds to the genitalia they have as adults. This is also the reason I said it was best to base which genitals to keep for intersex off their chromosomes. If their body at puberty is already genetically programmed towards a typical male or a typical female, do you think it would be better to go with it or against it?

          I don’t think that I need to argue that the basic definition for a male or female has always been based off whether someone has male genitalia or female genitalia. Maybe you have some other ideas for this, which I’m glad to hear. However, I think you would
          be hard-pressed to prove a point contrary to this. It’s also not that I could not have looked up the statistics on the number of intersex people (as can you), but as I’ve mentioned I have already heard the
          number and know it is incredibly small. If you know otherwise, prove me wrong. That way you can discredit me as you mentioned, but I don’t think you can.

          Finally, in reference to your main question about how to choose the gender for transgender people. This is actually the first time you’ve mentioned this if you look back, but I assume this is likely getting in the heart of the issue. I would say you have the question wrong. To show why I say this we need to both acknowledge that there is a physical gender and mental gender as I mention above. I assume there will be no issues in acknowledging this since the transgender community does. With some exceptions such as intersex, the rest of the transgender community were born as a perfectly normal biological male or female. So, for them gender is not assigned or chosen but acknowledged based on their physical attributes. At birth, their mental gender has not yet developed.

          Furthermore, I think we can all agree that transgendered have a very serious issue. The issue is in that their physical gender does not comport with their mental gender. Therefore, either their physical gender is off and their mental gender is the correct one, or their mental gender is off and their physical gender is the correct one. The odd thing is that with transgender people it is almost universally assumed that their mental gender is right in their physical one is wrong. I can’t imagine what people such as our family, our friends, or our neighbors are going through when they have this disconnect, so don’t get me wrong as my heart truly goes out to them.

          However, why should we assume that the mental gender is correct in the physical gender is wrong when every single cell in their body shows their physical gender through their chromosomes in this cannot be changed even with surgery? We see statistically, that at least for some people, their mental gender will change. This is supported by the fact that we see a lot of people discussing gender fluidity now, which is essentially the idea that their mental gender changes from one time period to another. Again, I could not imagine what it’s like to live with this. However, if we’re looking strictly at the evidence we have about the subject, it seems the physical gender is the more immutable of the two. So in the end, I would say the biological sex seems to be the more logical choice. If you disagree, I am happy to hear your rational and consider it. Maybe, I am missing something critical you are aware of.

          The previous post that was taken down stopped right there. Hopefully, this doesn’t confuse the issue too much as I’m sure from past experience that you will have a lot of questions. 🙂 As I mentioned in my last post, as opposed to the questions, I’m more interested in you telling me where my logic is bad here and maybe I’ll learn something from you. I am not anti-trans as you mentioned. I care about these people just as much as anyone else. Since as I mentioned above, we can all acknowledge they have an issue (between mental and physical gender), I’m mainly interested in identifying the best method of helping them with this disconnect and it doesn’t always seem to me as though we do.

  • glenbo

    In response to your removed post. Try to shorten them:
    Happy Thursday Joel!

    >>” Did you even read what I said about sources? My point wasn’t that I have none, but that I have many”<>” Beneficial for survival doesn’t mean the same as
    morally good”<>” What you won’t be able to do is make morality a
    genetic trait.”<>” The point was, absent of a moral law giver who’s
    authority covers everyone (i.e. God) there is no transcendent means of achieving an actual right or wrong.”<>” you said that being anti-LGBT is wrong.”<>” If it is wrong for everyone, then we have the
    issues I mentioned above where one cannot account for an objective morality apart from God.“<<

    Why is being LGBT wrong?

    God’s morality is NOT objective.

    It is subjective.

  • glenbo

    >>” Is human flourishing a good thing or a bad thing?”<<

    Overpopulation of any species in any environment is a bad
    thing as resources become limited and the masses suffer as a result.

    “Human flourishing” might be good for business and the
    church, but overpopulation has consequences.

    • Joel

      I understand what you are saying Glenbo, but you are presupposing an objective standard of good/ bad to make this statement. To help clarify what I mean, why is overpopulation bad? I am not saying I disagree with you, but there’s nothing about overpopulation that would make it morally wrong or bad. You could say overpopulation could kill off other species, plants, and ultimately us. To which, I could say “why is that bad?” You could respond, and I could ask “why is that bad?” This inns up being an infinite regress, which shows that either morality is subjective and specific to the individual, or it is objective and there is something outside of us that serves as the standard by which we judge good and bad.

      With your reply, you have made it subjective. Is that how you see things? Bear in mind that if it is subjective, then you can’t say anything is really right or wrong, good or bad or evil as they would all be a matter of your opinion. We can draw that out more depending on your answer.

  • Natureboi

    “I also believe that if you want to research the statistics on intersex, you will find that they are a very small percentage of births”

    Have you done this research?
    What is the “small percentage” of intersex births?
    Why does percentage matter?

    “knowing that they mentally may later identify as male again in a statistically significant number with no way to go back from what they did?”

    The relatively few trans people that elect to have surgery are usually quite sure about their psychological gender.
    It should wait until they at least reach the age of consent.
    But as Glenbo pointed out, what makes it your business?

    “This wouldn’t be something I encouraged someone I remotely cared about to do.”

    What do mean by “encourage?”
    Don’t you mean “allow?”
    I’m quite sure you wouldn’t want strangers telling you what you are allowed to allow your children to do.

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