Pastor and Wife Let Son Identify as Girl Since Age 2, Prepping Him for Puberty Blockers

By Nancy Flory Published on August 2, 2017

A New Jersey pastor and his wife have permitted their 10-year-old son to identify as a girl since the age of two. According to the child’s mom, they did that because he “loved pink and sparkles, and all things girly and that was fine with us.” They report that at one time he tried to jump out of a second-story window to take his life. They are getting ready to put the boy on puberty blockers. Some medical experts are calling that child abuse.

Pink Hair at the Age of Two

At the age of two Ben Bruesehoff’s parents, Pastor Christopher Bruesehoff and Jamie Bruesehoff of Holy Counselor Lutheran Church in Vernon, New Jersey, began dying their son’s hair pink. They explained that it was because he “gravitated toward typically feminine things.” He now calls himself “Rebekah.” He wears girls clothing and sports long, pink hair. “Rebekah has always been gender non-conforming,” said the pastor’s wife. Ben added, “I felt like I was a girl because I liked the color pink and I liked girls’ clothes and how they wore their hair and stuff.”

Once Ben started identifying as “Rebekah” he became happy, his mom explained. “When I see pictures of Ben I just think of it as part of my past and now I’m me,” Ben said.

A Denomination That Embraces the LGBT Agenda

They could have concluded that their son’s suffering was the sign of a psychological problem. Instead, the pastor and his wife have embraced his gender confusion. Their church is part of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America (ELCA), which embraces homosexual behavior. As it states on its website:

Because Jesus always judged cultural and biblical rules and laws using his principles of love and forgiveness, and rejected biblical rules that violated those principles, his followers are obligated to do the same. Those who say homosexual behavior is morally wrong in principle and should not be tolerated in the church must justify that judgment in terms of the principles of love and forgiveness. We cannot rely on St. Paul to do that for us in the 21st century. … St. Paul’s condemnation of homosexual behavior must be examined in light of Jesus’ principles as they apply in our culture, and not just blindly followed.

Further, the ELCA added: “If heterosexual Christians can manage to get around Jesus’ judgments, they certainly ought to be able to get around St Paul’s.” The statement likely refers to Romans 1:18-27, where Paul makes clear that homosexuality is a shameful sin. In effect, the ELCA is saying, “If you sin, I can sin, too.”

The Stream reached out to Pastor Bruesehoff. We did not receive a response prior to publication.

Embracing the Transgender Movement

The pastor and his wife embrace the transgender movement as a whole. In her article on Medium, Jamie Bruesehoff wrote that they were supporting Gavin Grimm in her case. Grimm is a female who identifies as male. She sued for the right to use the boy’s restroom at her high school.

My husband, Rev. Christopher Bruesehoff, was one of nearly 2,000 faith leaders to sign an amicus brief supporting Gavin Grimm and the rights of all transgender students, standing in solidarity with the trans community. We are proud to be a part of this historic case, the first concerning transgender equality to ever go before the U.S. Supreme Court — and we hope to see the Supreme Court rule on the right side of history in this case this spring.

Like an Athlete Taking Steroids

Ben is now getting ready for puberty blockers. He will have to decide about sex reassignment surgery — after he turns 18. His mom explained the process:

Rebekah really doesn’t want to think about the medical side of it. She doesn’t want to develop into a man. Medically transitioning involves a lot of different stuff and every transgender person chooses their own adventure. For Rebekah, the first step would be puberty blockers which will pause puberty and prevent her from going through male puberty and developing secondary male characteristics like facial hair, a deeper voice and an Adam’s apple that are irreversible.

The next step would be cross hormones. Rebekah is a natal male and so she would take estrogen to develop and go through female puberty. As far as surgery she hasn’t indicated a desire for that, but that is a decision she gets to make down the road anyway. That’s not something she would do before she is 18.

“Institutionalized Child Abuse”

Michelle Cretella is President of the American College of Pediatricians (ACP). She wrote recently that affirming transition for gender-dysphoric children is dangerous and unnecessary. Hormone blockers expose children to greater risk of:

  • bone fractures
  • obesity and
  • testicular cancer in boys.

Cross-sex hormones put children at risk of:

  • cardiac disease
  • high blood pressure
  • blood clots
  • strokes
  • diabetes and
  • cancers.

There’s also a risk for sterility.

Further, some 75 to 95 percent of gender-dysphoric children “ended up happy with their biological sex after simply passing through puberty.”

The bottom line, said Cretella, is that dosing kids amounts to “institutionalized child abuse”:

Today’s institutions that promote transition affirmation are pushing children to impersonate the opposite sex, sending many of them down the path of puberty blockers, sterilization, the removal of healthy body parts, and untold psychological damage.

God Doesn’t Make Mistakes

The ACP says on its website, “When an otherwise healthy biological boy believes he is a girl, or an otherwise healthy biological girl believes she is a boy, an objective psychological problem exists that lies in the mind not the body, and it should be treated as such.

In her article, Jamie said God created Ben to be Rebekah. And God does not make mistakes. She wrote:

We may not entirely understand the science around why people are born transgender or even what it all means for our daughter’s future, but we know that God created each and every one of us in God’s own image. God does not love our daughter in spite of her gender identity. God did not put her in the wrong body. This is who she has always been, who God created her to be, and like I’ve heard from so many who want to dispute transgender identities, God doesn’t make mistakes.

She’s right. God didn’t make a mistake. He made Ben.

 

 

The Stream will soon be publishing an open letter from Joseph Sciambra to Pastor Bruesehoff. Sciambra just completed a powerful three-part series for The Stream on his journey from gender confusion to wholeness in Christ. He empathizes with young Ben. He’s been there.

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  • Eric

    This is child abuse plain and simple.These people need professional help, and their children should be placed in foster care. I have a family member this was done two, he is grown up and hug positive now and is a alcholic constantly trying to deal with his identity. Evil.

    • Proud_NIMBY

      EXACTLY.

    • a.Christian.for.Ron.Paul

      I’m sorry to hear about your family member!

      However, I don’t agree that Ben should be placed in foster care nor that the government should have that type of authority. It would just be a matter of time before a system like that were abused. For example, Christians would get their children taken away from them for teaching them about Christ and the list would go on and on. There would be more issues caused from the disruption of the family unit than benefits from it.

      Instead, governments (both federal and state-level) should stop sponsoring the trans insanity. Christians should also rise to the occasion and preach and live the Gospel. Those two things would have the biggest impact.

      • Eric

        I understand your disagreement. I would counter if a parent lost a daughter and had another child who was a boy , then they dressed him up like a girl, dyed his hair at 2 years old, gave him drugs , and taught him he was a girl , all this over the grief of losing their daughter , no one would argue that family needed help. This has hapoened too many times throughout history.
        But today, if a parent decided there 2 year old daughter wants to be a girl because they like the color pink , dye her hair and dress her as a girl and change her name at 2 years old , you think that’s ok because our government and politics of the day says it’s normal ?
        This is crazy . Where’s the logic ? He’s 2 , hes still in a diaper but you know he wants to be a girl. This is insanity.

      • Stephen M. Zumbo

        And now the local government here in Tucson, apparently.

  • Jim Walker

    What puzzles me is how can a pastor and wife be so stupid?
    The LGBT-approving community wants to make toys gender neutral yet this pasta & wife gives girly toys and girly colors stuff to their boy just because he is attracted to them at age of 2 ? What irony…

    • Mensa Member

      >> What puzzles me is how can a pastor and wife be so stupid?

      Parents who harass their trans kids to suicide seem like the stupid ones, to me.

      • Jim Walker

        Wow… a 2 year old kid who seemed attracted to colorful girl’s toys = 100% certified LGBT ? I thought you do not support transgenderism and homosexuality ? You said it in your own words in another thread.

        • Mensa Member

          I said what?

          I remember saying that I don’t support transgenderism and homosexuality. Those are human conditions. I don’t support or reject it. I leave that to the person who has that condition.

          I also remember saying that I try to show the love of Jesus to transgender and gay people. I hope you do the same.

          • Jim Walker

            Jesus loves the sinner, not the sin.

      • Nobody Specific

        Except once again no-science. For someone supposedly so smart you seem very willing to take completely unsupported conclusions and run with them. There is no evidence that risk suicide in anyway correlates with others accepting a persons identification as trans. Actually the little bit of research done in that area indicated there was no correlation. Even if there was that isn’t an indication of causation.

        We are talking about children, pre-pubescent people here. This entire conversation is stupid. Even if for a moment you accept sex and gender are not entirely the same thing, a dubious claim in the first place, they are highly conflated issues in all people. Some who has not matured sexually can’t reasonably know they are a transexual or transgender.

        Parents have to make kids do all kinds of things they don’t want to that might make them feel less than accepted. I bet if you asked most childhood chemotherapy patients if they’d rather skip the treatment and go get ice-cream, the ice-cream is going to be pretty popular among the under 10 crowd. That does not make it the right choice, even if it leads to unhappy frustrated kids in the short term.

        Telling little Timmy he isn’t actually a Tabitha even if he wants to play with dolls and dress-up, is actually a parents responsibility!

  • Mensa Member

    My sympathies go out to these parents. It must be super-hard to know the best way to treat a small trans child.

    I don’t necessarily feel sorry for the child. I’ve known trans kids who were well-adjusted and happy. I imagine this only can happen if they are raised in a supportive, nurturing environment. This child seems to have that.

    But how can parents know what to do if their two year old “girl” is absolutely convinced they are a “boy.”

    At first, you might think it is just a phase. Wise parents ignore most phases and they usually just go away. Strong opposition often backfire, especially in teens.

    But if your child consistently identifies with the opposite gender from age two until puberty, it’s obviously not a phase!

    Surgical gender reassignment is super radical and lifelong, so I can’t imagine myself making that decision for a minor child. I’ve heard that hormone blockers are reversible, so I can see why parents my choose that route.

    If Dr. Cretella is correct, that’s alarming and probably not an option. But, I have my doubts. The “American College of Pediatricians” sounds big and official but I Googled it and it’s just a tiny special-interest group.

    • Eric

      I have a honest question. In my circles every homosexual I know and love struggles with substance abuse of which there are 3. I know only of 1 transgender. Now I hear a lot but these are people I know and love. You mentioned you have known trans kids , is this common in your circles or do you work in social services ?

      • Mensa Member

        I work in public schools, so I have known literally thousands of kids. Very few are transgender. I haven’t kept count but some obviously were.

        In my “outside” world, I have known only two or three, all in church. My church is not transphobic, so trans Christians will hear about us and seek us out. Obviously, this skews the statistics.

        But, Portland Oregon is fairly trans friendly so I see them regularly. Again, I think that is because trans people know they can move here and not be harassed as much.

        A couple of the big grocery store chains must have a non-discrimination policy because there seems to be a lot of trans clerks.

        • Mensa Member

          It’s worth pointing out that you are only aware of three gays people in your circles. There are surely many more. If you get in a room of more than about 20 or 30 people, there is probably at least one. And that includes your family reunions and church. I guarantee you that most of those other gay people aren’t all alcoholics.

          • Eric

            Oh, no doubt there are many more, I’m sure there are some at my work, church etc. I just mentioned those that I’m close too. I was curious , I read the polls but I’d rather hear it straight from other people ! Thanks for the quick reply!

        • Gary

          No such creature as a “glbtq Christiain”.

    • Patmos

      So what organization is paying you to troll this site? Just wondering.

  • SophieA

    This is disgraceful! Our son loved pink and shiny sparkles. We didn’t over react or fret. He grew up into a fine man but retains his penchant for pink and sparklely crystals. No big deal. External likes such as colors or sparkles do not define our sex or who we are. Unlike this “pastor,” we know that God informs our identity and we are who he says we are. Too bad some “pastors” haven’t this same insight.

    • Mensa Member

      I hope you understand that liking pink is not the same thing as being trans. Not even a cisgender girls like pink!

      Most likely, it’s a condition where ones genital structure doesn’t match ones brain structure.

      Be glad your son don’t have it. But that doesn’t mean it’s a sin for those who do.

      • SophieA

        Never said anything about sin. Resent that you put words aligned with your bias into my comment. Aren’t you too intelligent to make this mistake? And for your “Mensa” moniker, you should edit your reply to insure subject/verb agreement. Anyone can make a mistake even a “Mensa member.” Right?

      • a.Christian.for.Ron.Paul

        @MensaMemberAAA:disqus

        Did you read the article? Ben’s parents stated “loved pink and sparkles, and all things girly and that was fine with us.”

        Sophie stated “External likes such as colors or sparkles do not define our sex or who we are.”

        I hope you understand that your comment makes no sense. You’re attempting to correct Sophie’s understanding and defend Ben’s parents understanding, while simultaneously agreeing with Sophie’s understanding and providing reasoning against Ben’s parents’ understanding.

        It seems that your common sense accidentally came out 🙂 You should go with your common sense rather than going with the “transgender” insanity.

  • Anne E. Reid

    how tragic

  • Patmos

    “Because Jesus always judged cultural and biblical rules and laws using his principles of love and forgiveness, and rejected biblical rules that violated those principles…”

    ???

    So Jesus didn’t come to fulfill the law and the prophets, but to replace?

    The fact that this church is trying to divide the messages of Paul and Jesus as somehow being different means they are trying to divide the Holy Spirit. What? Are there two Holy Spirits now?

    That church is an absolute abomination, with no power behind it, no authority, and anyone who follows it is headed for the ditch it’s blind leaders are already in.

    Where in the world do people come up with this stuff?

    • a.Christian.for.Ron.Paul

      2 Timothy 4:3 “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires”

    • Stephen M. Zumbo

      And Jesus said He is God, and said to the Samaritan woman when he was correcting her wrong View of God’s requirements for worship and obedience, I who stand before you m he, worship God in spirit and in truth.

  • glenbo

    >>”God didn’t make a mistake. He made Ben.”<<

    So why does Ben identify as a girl? Can you answer this Nancy? Please, give me your best shot why a little boy would think he is a girl. I'm all ears!
    Is it Satan?

    Why would God create child with two heads?
    Why does God create children with cancer, microcephaly, or debilitating birth defects?
    Why does God create intersex children?
    Why did God create malaria?

    How interesting is it that some people such as Nancy Flory pretend to care about the welfare of certain children while simultaneously marginalizing them, belittling them and demonizing them in order to strip them of their civil rights.
    Why? Because she cares about their well-being!

    • Paul

      “So why does Ben identify as a girl? Can you answer this Nancy? Please, give me your best shot why a little boy would think he is a girl. I’m all ears!”

      Because his parents allow it.

      “Is it Satan?”

      Yes, his parents are fooled by Satans lies, and worse yet as a pastor is leading many more astray.

      • glenbo

        >>”Yes, his parents are fooled by Satans lies,”<<
        Cue cuckoo clock sound byte.

        • Mensa Member

          The ironic thing is that the bible is surprisingly positive about trans people.

          Eunichs were genetic males who lived as women. Often, they were castrated very early so that they didn’t develop male physical traits. Known now as transgender.

          In highly patriarchal, gender-segregated societies, transgender people would be very useful since they could move between both gender worlds.

          A transgender person was one of the first converts to Christianity! And without a word of criticism for being trans.

          • Kevin Quillen

            “Eunichs were genetic males who lived as women.”
            Proof please.

          • Kevin Carr

            Cite book, chapter and verse.

          • Bryan

            Eunichs were genetic males who were castrated (usually not their choice by the way) so that they wouldn’t boink the Pharoh’s/King’s/Emporer’s/etc. wife or concubines. They were still protectors and had other typically male roles but were not seen as threats because they could produce no offspring.
            Also, who was the trans person you are referring to in your last statement?

          • glenbo

            What annoys me about all these people is they truly have no understanding of being transgender. It help if you actually know someone who is trans or gay to understand. All these hate-filled people come from religion, ironically.. a religion that supposedly teaches “love.”
            They are anything but “loving. They are vile and filled with hate and misinformation.
            The ONLY “information” about LGBT these people have come from religion. If they listened to PBS and actually visited legitimate scientific websites instead of Info Wars, they would be far more tolerant of people who have not “chosen” to be the way they are.
            Nature does crazy things, such as create a child with two heads. Is this God’s image? Instead of realizing we are at Nature’s whim and nature is uncaring and cruel, (much like God) they choose to reject that which they are taught to. And why are they taught to hate LGBT people? The answer is simple.
            Put it all together, birth control, abortion and non-procreative sexual behavior.
            The church is only concerned about its job security, so those who fail to do so are demonized.
            All the LGBT people I know are not immoral evil people. None have harmed others in any way.
            But tell that to the church, and YOU will be demonized.
            I thought the Bronze Age ended. But I guess some people cannot leave the dark ages.

          • Stephen M. Zumbo

            Again, speaking the truth about God’s design is not being hateful. And again I question the fact that you have not considered, and the people in the lgbtq movement I have spoken to refuse to consider that the reasons for their actions don’t necessarily line up with the truth, including God truth, which is the source of all other truth including scientific truth and medical truth and mental health truth. Basing your decisions on wrong presuppositions will always lead to wrong conclusions. the reason I can say that is because God is a god of logic and Truth. The fact that many of those don’t see that means that we need to think more deeply and with better presuppositions. You are correct in that being angry with people without cause is wrong. God says be angry and sin not. You are not correct in thinking that there is no God and that nature is all there is. God is not cruel if he knows what best and he tells us what’s best, and we continue to ignore it or go against it. God has said what will happen if we deny what he has said. The results we get when we go against God are not God’s fault. You’re right when you say that the church is made up of people. People do wrong and and they do even church people. If you don’t believe in God or his word, however, you have no real basis for calling people in the church wrong. Their decisions, and words, and actions are no better or worse than yours. Why does it matter? if we’re all just evolved Pond scum, then why does it matter what anybody says or does to about anybody else. Anybody who demonizes anybody else, however, is wrong. if they kill somebody or harm somebody because of what they think or feel, that is wrong. But the fact that someone gets their feelings hurt has now become an issue, rather than the truth about what those people with their feelings hurt are trying to do to themselves against God’s written will for them. Mutilating themselves physically and chemically because of a Feeling is wrong when it goes against what their God ordained genetics say they are.

          • glenbo

            How do I determine God is more than just a figment of your imagination?

          • Stephen M. Zumbo

            the Ethiopian eunuch was not a transgender person, as far as We Know. We don’t know why he was made a eunuch. We don’t know if it was his choice, or the choice of the queen who the eunuch served. Come to think of it, if he was a eunuch in a Royal household, he probably was required to be a and to remain eunuch to preserve the Kings concubines and not to be tempted by them. If he was a transgender and the queen had a male harem , then maybe he would have never been eligible for the position , or been seen as a threat to the queen, and lost his job or even his life by the Queen’s edict.

            Ironically, the eunuch is held up as a example of someone who wanted to know the truth about God and his son and salvation as presented in the scriptures. The Apostle Philip explains the scripture, the eunuch requests to be baptized. He should be honored for that desire to know God’s truth and to Humble himself and obey God. Are the people that see him as a transgender person willing to do that, even if it cost them their belief in transgenderism has a civil right?

            The spread of the Gospel is the point of that scene. Promotion of transgenderism or even mere emasculation is not.

        • Paul

          Predictable response from someone who wants to ignore biblical teaching

          • glenbo

            >>”Predictable response from someone who wants to ignore biblical teaching”<<
            Why would I ignore something that condones slavery, rape and child murder?
            Why would I ignore something that cannot explain why people I love dearly are to be killed?
            What reason can you give me to believe it is true?

          • Paul

            Clearly you don’t know the Bible to begin with if you think it condones what you claim. But it makes for a nice inflamatory soundbite.

            Trying to convince you of its truth would be a waste of time right now, I simply acknowledge you reject it and see how that influences your world view

          • glenbo

            >>”Trying to convince you of its truth would be a waste of time”<>”I simply acknowledge you reject it”<<
            I have no reason to accept it, and neither do you.
            Why do you "reject" the Quran?

          • Paul

            “All I need is a shred of proof it is true. Just a little shred.”

            You expect anyone here to believe that? LOL

          • glenbo

            >>”You expect anyone here to believe that?”<<
            It's okay to admit there is no evidence it is true.
            Therefore, I am not bound by its dictates, nor is anyone else unless you choose to be.

          • Paul

            But I’m supposed to be bound by whatever moral relativism guides you?

          • glenbo

            No, sir. Not at all.
            Nobody is binding you to anything. I don’t see how allowing LGBT people equal rights “binds” you to anything immoral. To say it does is absurd.

            But you cannot forcibly bind others with your moral compass.
            My source of morality is irrelevant, unless you can prove I am doing something immoral.

          • Paul

            When people are being sued and fined for not servicing fraudulent weddings then yes people are being bound by force to the immorality of homosexuality

          • glenbo

            >>”When people are being sued and fined for not servicing fraudulent weddings then yes people are being bound by force to the immorality of homosexuality”<<
            Nope.
            Nobody is bound to do anything.
            You have choices. Don't blame the gays if you choose to make stupid and bad decisions.

          • Paul

            Ah yes, blaming the victim. Classic dodge.

          • glenbo

            >>”Ah yes, blaming the victim. “<<
            How is one a "victim" if one makes bad choices?

          • Paul

            I have wondered the same thing about all the people who profess to be homosexual, trans, and every other form of sexual deviant.

          • glenbo

            >>”I have wondered the same thing about all the people who profess to be homosexual, trans, and every other form of sexual deviant.”<<
            Oh My Frikkin' Gawd!
            I'll put "choosing" to be transgender aside, along with my future question on intersex children.
            Question:
            Are sexual attractions able to be chosen at will?
            If you continue avoiding questions, I will dismiss this dialogue.

          • Paul

            Yes people make choices of what they do with their bodies and with whom. Choices, choices, we all make them. If I were to cheat on my wife that is a choice, hiding behind whatever attraction I may feel is a lame excuse for a bad choice. You’re quick to condemn the choice of conscience of a baker, punish them untill they comply, but oh we can’t examine the choices of all these deviants, they are incapable of making a choice alparently.

          • glenbo

            >>”Yes people make choices of what they do with their bodies and with whom.”<<
            Wow.
            Now we are getting somewhere…finally.
            Okay, Paul…so you are asserting that sexual attractions can be chosen at whim? By anyone?
            Yes or no.

          • Paul

            I said people choose what they do with their bodies and with whom.

            I have always considered homosexuality a choice. A really bad choice of what to do with your body. Same with adultery, also a really bad choice. Lying, murder, worshiping other gods, all bad choices as well. Oh I know you don’t get the last one but that’s how I roll.

            Lot’s of people have been duped by the assertion that just because you feel like making a bad choice that somehow makes it right. That gets wrapped up in fancy words like disposition and attraction, but ultimately it is expressed as a choice. And when someone points out that it is a bad choice then the horns come out in defense of the bad choice, everyone else is phobic or bigoted. And now even prosecuted for pointing out the obvious.

          • glenbo

            So your answer to my question is yes.

            Thank you.

            >>”I have always considered homosexuality a choice.”<<
            Are you able to be sexually attracted to someone of your matching gender?
            Are you able to act on those chosen sexual attractions?

          • Stephen M. Zumbo

            because the lifestyle and actions of lgbtq people are wrong and immoral by God’s standard. Because our government now is saying otherwise and is forcing me to agree with that judgment, it is at least dangerous for me and possibly deadly, now or in the eternity. your source of morality is relevant, if it denies What God Says is wrong. ultimately, I don’t have to prove it that it is and why it is, God says it is wrong. it’s wrong for you to deny God exist in spite of the fact that he says he does and he proves it in the complexity and reality of the natural world deep in your heart and mind. read the book of Romans to see where all men stand before God if they don’t accept what he says about his world and his order. they suppress the truth, they try to push it out of their minds, they try to set up a world where it doesn’t exist and isn’t needed, merely so they can do the things that are unseemly, illogical, and deadly.

          • glenbo

            >>”forcing me to agree “<<
            Cue cuckoo clock sound byte.
            Dude, you are not "forced" to do ANYTHING.

          • Stephen M. Zumbo

            if you come back to this thread, you will see my comments over the last 8 hours that I believe answer your request, and with much more than a little Shred. I hope you are sincere in wanting answers. As I said earlier, God’s steaks his reputation on what he has said and done in the Bible. That is as his reason for writing and preserving it. as I also said above I do not believe the Quran is from God, mainly because Mohammed refused to do what he said people should do, Revere the Hebrew and Christian scriptures. If he had actually done so sincerely and carefully, he would have seen that the Bible and the Tanakh are not corrupt as he later claimed and as Muslims believe today. He would have humbled himself and put himself under the authority of the god of the Bible. Also, because God is God, we shouldn’t be able to understand everything he says and does. Certainly not without study and prayer and consideration of all that we’re learning. If everything God said and did in the scriptures was easy to understand then we would be God and not a finite creature of God. I hope you are sincere in your interest. If you are and you seek God diligently, God has promised that you will find him and find the truth.

          • glenbo

            Sorry, not convinced the bible is true or that God is real…other than in your imagination.

        • Stephen M. Zumbo

          and they also fail as parents because they forgot or didn’t know that they should evaluate or overrule their feelings if they go against or don’t line up with God’s truth presented in the Bible. They are responsible for their actions, and you glenbow will be responsible for yours

          • glenbo

            >>”if they go against or don’t line up with God’s truth presented in the Bible.”<<
            How does one determine God is real?
            How does one determine the bible is true?

    • Patmos

      The only one demonizing here is you. If you can’t see that there’s something wrong when a little child’s mind doesn’t line up with reality, and the encouragement by culture for people to mutilate their bodies to appease this type of delusion, then you are part of the problem. This is not a social justice issue, this is a mental health issue.

      • glenbo

        >>”when a little child’s mind doesn’t line up with reality”<<
        What is your definition of "reality?"

        • Kevin Carr

          When a person is anorexic/bulimic, in their mind they see themselves as over weight, should they be affirmed in that belief or should they get help?

          • glenbo

            >>”When a person is anorexic/bulimic”<<
            So being trans is bad because…?

          • Paul

            …it is delusional.

          • glenbo

            >>”…it is delusional.”<<
            Where do you get your knowledge of gender dysphoria from?

          • Paul

            It’s basic common sense really.

            Delusional:

            maintaining fixed false beliefs even when confronted with facts, usually as a result of mental illness:

            The fact is the boy was born a boy, his chromosomes have not changed. He (and his parents) believe him to be something he is not.

            When I was a boy I used to play cowboys and indians with my friends. We did our best with what we had to dress and act our Hollywood movie version of the parts but knew deep down us city kids were neither cowboys or indians. If I maintained the fantasy day in day out for years my folks would have me visiting a shrink, not enabling my delusion.

            This boy needs psyciatric help to sort out his delusion not hormone shots to enable it.

          • glenbo

            >>”This boy needs psyciatric help to sort out his delusion not hormone shots to enable it.”<<
            Why?
            How is his condition any of your business?
            Who are you to dictate how a parent raises their children?
            And where do you get your knowledge of gender dysphoria from?

          • Paul

            I have no authority over that family, never said I did. But I am entitled to an opinion just like you. However in this country whether we like it or not the state intervenes in matters relevant to the well being of children. As a citizen and voter my opinion has the opportunity to influence public policy. If I gave my child diuretics to enable their anorexia you probably would be ranting about how I’m harming my child rather than defending my right to harm my child.

          • glenbo

            >>”As a citizen and voter my opinion has the opportunity to influence public policy.”<<
            I can assume you voted against same-sex marriage.
            Something that is also none of your business.

          • Paul

            Yes, me and a majority of Californians for that matter recognized that marriage is between one woman and one man in a Constitutional amendment.

          • Paul

            Yes, me and a majoity of Californians. And considering people are being sued and fined because they don’t recognize these fraudulent marriages clearly it is my business.

          • glenbo

            >>”Yes, me and a majoity of Californians.”<<
            What makes who someone loves and wants to marry your business?

          • Shaquille Harvey

            The why did it become government matter ? The why did it become those bakers businesses then ?

          • glenbo

            >>”The why did it become government matter ? The why did it become those bakers businesses then?”<<

            If an anti-discrimination law or any law is violated, the government is required to act.

            “Those bakers” broke the law.

            They are not immune from the law just because they think they hear voices in their head from imaginary beings.

          • Shaquille Harvey

            The law forces them to participate in ceremonies,that goes against thier religious liberty and free exercise of it and thier convictions,and thus is unconstitutional.

          • glenbo

            >>”The law forces them to participate in ceremonies,that goes against thier religious liberty and free exercise of it and thier convictions,and thus is unconstitutional.”<<
            Show me just ONE person who has been "forced" to do anything. Just one, please.
            Show me just ONE person who was denied the right to go to church , pray and believe in their imaginary gay murdering God.
            Just one, please.

          • Shaquille Harvey

            There was a Fire chief canned for writing literature for his church. This, along with outrageous fine for those who won’t participate in gay weddings, ensures the message is clear; Americans cannot practice any form of christianity that does not capitulate to gays, and be members of society. This is a clear violation of the 1st

          • glenbo

            He distributed anti-LGBT literature in the workplace among fellow firemen.
            This was against policy.
            Doing so creates a divisive and hostile environment for LGBT firemen,
            I am sick of your refusing to understand WHY these people got into the trouble they cause for themselves.
            It is NOT because they are Christians…it is because they practiced bigotry and discrimination and did offensive things BECAUSE of their foolish religion.
            They did this to them selves by practicing and spreading hate.
            You are an irrational person if you choose to not look ate both sides.
            I, however, understand the Christian side, that for some ridiculous irrational reason, Christians think are required to target a group for rejection and they don’t understand why they got into trouble for is.
            Put the hate, bigotry and discrimination away, there would be NO problems.

          • Shaquille Harvey

            “Kelvin Cochran distributed anti-LGBT literature in the workplace among fellow firemen.
            This was against policy.
            By doing so, he created a divisive and hostile environment for LGBT firemen. There was NO need to spread anti-LGBT propaganda in the workplace knowing it is offensive and divisive.”
            What evidence do you have for this ?

            “I am sick of your refusing to understand WHY these people got into the trouble they got into that they actually cause for themselves by spreading hate.
            It is NOT because they are Christians…it is because they practiced bigotry and discrimination and did offensive things BECAUSE of their foolish religion.”
            So following their faith is wrong because the gay activists say so !?
            So it’s wrong for Christian, who has in their right under religious liberty and things like free market to both practice their faith and make transactions with whoever they like but yet, to refuse a gay wedding because discrimination but acceptable to force Christians to go against their religious liberty and make attacks on them and thier faith? And yet these people want to talk about discrimination !?

            “They did this to them selves by practicing and spreading hate.
            You are an irrational person if you choose to not look at both sides.
            I, however, understand the Christian side, that for some ridiculous irrational reason, Christians think are required to target a group for rejection which accomplishes NOTHING and they don’t understand why they get into trouble for doing so. ”
            You claim to be rational and look at both sides, that including the Christian side, yet you conveinantly attack and use false rhetoric with Christians and especially all of Christendom.

            “They are NOT the victims, they are the aggressors.
            Put the hate, bigotry and discrimination away, there would be NO problems.”
            Well neither are the LGBT community when they have government force others to go against their convictions to provide services to get what they want.
            Also for that last statement do you actually think that’ll be the case ?

          • glenbo

            It’s been a pleasure debating you.

          • glenbo

            >>”Well neither are the LGBT community when they have government force others to go against their convictions to provide services”<<
            I asked you this already and you avoided this question.
            WHO has been FORCED to do WHAT?
            Stop frikin' playing with me and just answer the damn question:
            Who has been forced to do what?

          • Shaquille Harvey

            People like the Christian caterers and florists who declined to cater to a same sex wedding.

          • glenbo

            >>”People like the Christian caterers and florists who declined to cater to a same sex wedding.”<<
            And once again I will ask you:
            What have they been FORCED to do?

          • Shaquille Harvey

            And I answered people such as the Christian florist i.e. Barronelle Stutzman

          • glenbo

            >>”who were told to cater to homosexual wedding”<<

            Did they actually cater to a homosexual wedding?
            Were they indeed "forced" to cater to a homosexual wedding?
            If not, did you lie when you said they were "forced" to cater to a homosexual wedding?
            Are you lying to me?

          • Shaquille Harvey

            “Did they actually cater to a homosexual wedding?”
            No as it went against thier convictions.
            “Were they indeed “forced” to cater to a homosexual wedding?”
            Yes, some were forced and taken to court over it.
            “Did any of them actually cater to a homosexual wedding under “force?””
            If they told to cater something that goes against thier convictions and will and the free market philosophy then yes.
            “If not, did you lie when you said they were “forced” to cater to a homosexual wedding?
            Are you lying to me?”
            No

          • Shaquille Harvey

            Cater to a gay wedding

          • glenbo

            >>”Cater to a gay wedding”<<

            OH MY GAWD!

            Are you drunk? Or do you have comprehension issues?

            You said that Christian wedding caterers were “forced” to participate in ceremonies.
            I asked "WHO WAS FORCED?"
            So the ball is in your court. Please show me proof that a wedding caterer was "forced" to participate in a gay wedding.
            This should be a piece of cake for you to do if you are telling me the truth.
            If you cannot provide this information, you are a LIAR.

          • glenbo

            >>”People like the Christian caterers and florists who declined “<<
            So you lied when you said they were "forced?"

          • Shaquille Harvey

            How did I lie ?

          • glenbo

            >>”How did I lie ?”<>”Well neither are the LGBT community when they
            have government force others to go against their convictions to provide services”<>” The fact that it’s okay to force someone to go
            against their religious convictions and liberty”<>” The law forces them to participate in ceremonies”<<

            So my follow up questions to your above statements that you avoided were:

            “Who was “forced” to do anything?”

            You provided NO evidence to back up your claims.

            If you cannot back up your above claims, you are a liar.

          • glenbo

            >>”Well neither are the LGBT community when they have government force others to go against their convictions to provide services to get what they want. “<<
            OH MY GAWD!
            Here we go again.
            Are you drunk?
            Who was "FORCED" to do what?

          • Stephen M. Zumbo

            the people in government will also be responsible for their choices and actions. They are not immune from God’s laws and truth because they think he is imaginary.

          • glenbo

            >>”>They are not immune from God’s laws and truth because they think he is imaginary.”<<
            How does one determine God is real?

          • Stephen M. Zumbo

            and homosexuals who pursue this case and homosexual lobbies who supported it against that Baker will be judged by a higher law, one that our legal system used to recognize and still claims to recognize. God’s law. In fact, the homosexual plaintiffs and later the lobbyists to demonize this Baker rather than find another Baker who would do what they wanted that he felt he could not before God. They had an agenda Beyond getting a wedding cake. it is unfortunate that this case and others like it forced our nation and our justices and our politicians to do wrong in their decisions. Yes, as the law is now in effect come, the government has to enforce it. That doesn’t make anybody involved in it right.

          • glenbo

            >>”clearly it is my business.”<<
            How so?

          • Paul

            Besides the fact that such suits or fines could impact me personally it is an injustice in the country I’m a citizen of.

          • glenbo

            >>”Besides the fact that such suits or fines could impact me personally<>”it is an injustice in the country”<<

            Please explain this “injustice.”

          • Paul

            Are you completely ignorant of the homosexual agenda forcing their ways on the nation? Service their fraudulent wedding or else! Teach public school children about sodomy. Forbid parents from getting their kids therapy to address their homosexual/trans mental illness. No, you know all about it and fully support it and could care less of everyone else.

          • glenbo

            None of that is any of your business.
            Nobody is being “forced” to do anything.

          • Stephen M. Zumbo

            ultimately God has said what is just and right and true in this area. just because the courts is in California and a majority of Californians believe something doesn’t make it true or right. if you live in California it is your business, but God will judge you for the decisions you make or don’t make. Those judges will be responsible for the positions that they hold. God will be just and fair. He will be just based on his standard, not yours.

          • Paul

            Not quite sure of your point here, but in California a majority of voters approved a state Constitution amendment affirming that a marriage is between one man and one woman. The liberal judges promptly ignored it. Yes God will ultimately judge and I always seek His standard.

          • Stephen M. Zumbo

            It is my business because mankind is not the source of marriage, the meaning of marriage, or the purposes of marriage. God, who is the originator of marriage, put Adam and Eve together two sexes, not one. Humankind, even the Supreme Court, and all the voters in America who supported this decision, do not get to change God’s and I have a right to say that to my congressman and the Supreme Court and any other person in Authority. Unfortunately they have turned away from those ideas, ideas that most of the founders of our nation would have agreed with that, based on their writings and statements, in the things they included in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. the problem today is we no longer have a Christian consensus in this nation, a consensus that we did have when these documents and this country were written and founded. I believe our nation will be and perhaps already is being judged for these wrong choices we are making. but at least for now, it is still my right to stand up and say when my leaders and even the feelings of a group of my fellow citizens are incorrect. May God have mercy on our nation.

          • glenbo

            No. The personal affairs of others are NOT your business.
            If you think you are entitled to impose your religion into the lives of others, you are equal to a Muslim terrorist.

          • a.Christian.for.Ron.Paul

            @glenbo999:disqus He already answered where he gets his knowledge from: “It’s basic common sense really.”

            And then he explained the reasoning. Your “Why?” question is also explained in the reasoning. The “boy needs psychiatric help” answer is the conclusion.

            It doesn’t appear that you’re interested in answers, but rather just want to ask red herring questions.

          • glenbo

            >>””It’s basic common sense really.””<<
            If you have no scientific knowledge of a human condition or trained expertise in human psychology and physiology, you have no business speaking in an authoritative knowledgeable fashion.

          • Stephen M. Zumbo

            You would be right if science had all the answers on this issue, but they do not. God , the Creator, is authoritative above human knowledge. Since he is the creator he gets to decide what is truth about any issue. Since he does then as the Creator ultimately his understanding of the issue must be the true one. Any scientific truth needs to be put up against the truth that God has asserted. If gender dysmorphia is true, then our treatment still needs to be done in light of the fact that there are only two sexes, that they are determined by genetics, not by your feelings, and also that we live in a fallen corrupted world and have disease and mental health issues that can Cloud our judgment. And we have people who will lie to us for an agenda. And demonic forces in the background that want to do the same to us and worse. God says he is Sovereign above all this and that he is the ultimate Authority. Therefore he and those who submit to his authority have a right to speak knowledgeably on the issue.

          • glenbo

            >>”If gender dysmorphia is true, then our treatment still needs to be done in light of the fact that there are only two sexes, that they are determined by genetics,”<<
            Why would God create a child with two heads, or intersex?

          • a.Christian.for.Ron.Paul

            @glenbo Do you have scientific knowledge or trained expertise in human authoritative speaking that I can’t speak in an authoritatively knowledgeable fashion? No? By your reasoning, you have no business telling me anything.

            Thankfully, I have reality. Just because a male thinks he is a female, doesn’t make it so. Just because an anorexic person thinks she is not thin enough, doesn’t make it so. Just because a man thinks he’s a cat, doesn’t make it so.

            It doesn’t take a scientist, psychologist, or physiologist to figure this out. It’s the basics. The emperor has no clothes and *he* is not a woman.

            Join us in reality rather than supporting the delusion.

          • glenbo

            >>” By your reasoning, you have no business telling me anything.”<<
            I have researched gender dysphoria, homosexuality and intersex extensively.
            My statements are based on facts that align and agree with the medical community which is overwhelmingly in agreement on these issues.
            Your statements are based on nothing but bigotry and hate.
            Religion teaches bigotry and hate and to ignore science.

          • a.Christian.for.Ron.Paul

            @glenbo999:disqus

            You appear to be lack the proper reasoning capabilities to continue this conversation.

            If you read the conversation thread above, you’ve only made ONE statement and it wasn’t anywhere close to scientific. It was your own opinion.

            The rest of your comments in the above thread were questions (you had many of them). Statements are not the same as questions. Statements end in periods, questions end in question marks.

            The one statement you made was:
            “If you have no scientific knowledge of a human condition or trained
            expertise in human psychology and physiology, you have no business
            speaking in an authoritative knowledgeable fashion.”

            The above statement is an opinion statement, rather than a “fact’.

            And now you’re stating that “My statements are based on facts that align and agree with the medical
            community which is overwhelmingly in agreement on these issues.”

            OK, where are your double blind, scientific experiments by the medical community that I have no business speaking in an “authoritative knowledgeable fashion”?

            My statements are based on reality. Yours are based on an imaginary world and imaginary conversations. YOU’RE the bigoted, hateful, ignorant individual that resorts to ad hominen and red herrings.

          • glenbo

            Thank you for your conversation.

          • a.Christian.for.Ron.Paul

            I wish you all the best.

          • Stephen M. Zumbo

            Except common sense is not as common as it used to be, sadly.

          • Paul

            Isn’t that the truth

          • Stephen M. Zumbo

            because it is not healthy, it is not the truth about human beings are. God created human beings from the beginning as male and female, not more than two sexes, and not fluid. Nor are your sex determined by your feelings. They are determined by your genes and chromosomes, just as God designed. Sadly we now live in a fallen world, where the genetic purpose of our bodies can sometimes fail, where our minds can deceive us if we allow them to do so in the face of what God designed our bodies and minds to be and do. if we consistently hear or fill our minds with error, both our presuppositions and our conclusions will be wrong. based on what God has said on this topic, a God who says he does not and cannot lie, I would say that psychologist and people in the movement are more likely in error. Going against God’s created order is bad, and can only end up in more Badness and wrong not less. Is the medical or psychological opinion on gender dysphoria taking into account what God says about the reality of human sexuality? God would say to balance or overrule your feelings with the truth. simply put, wrong is bad because God says it is, and because the results are not good for you, and God wants to spare you and me of the results of being wrong on this and every other wrong issue

          • glenbo

            >>” because it is not healthy”<<

            Why is being a transgendered person “not healthy?”

          • Kevin Quillen

            excellent!

        • Jim Walker

          When I see my manhood below, now that is reality.

          • glenbo

            >>”>When I see my manhood below, now that is reality.”<<
            So you judge people by sex and sexual identity and behavior?
            CREEPY!

          • Jim Walker

            You are the creepy one glenbo and you don’t even know it.

          • glenbo

            >>”You are the creepy one glenbo”<<
            Why?
            Because I have family, friends, clients and employee who are LGBT and I see nothing wrong with that?
            Am I creepy for caring about them?
            If so, why?

          • Stephen M. Zumbo

            No, it’s perfectly fine to care about them, and indeed the right thing to do. But to agree with them in their error is not loving or caring. Telling and guiding them to all the truth is the loving thing to do. It is not easy, it is not necessarily Pleasant, but it is right

          • glenbo

            >>”Telling and guiding them to all the truth is the loving thing to do. “<<

            Please research "Transgender children commit suicide."
            Then get back to me on hoe your "love" is working out.
            What makes your so-called "truth" true?

          • Mensa Member

            >> When I see my manhood below, now that is reality.

            You touch on a key part of this issue. Is manhood nothing more than your “manhood”? When the rhetoric gets heated, I’ve heard anti-trans activists say that.

            Or is being a man about what’s between your ears? If you lost your “manhood” in an accident, would you no longer be a man? Or is it much deeper than that?

            That’s the very question trans boys have to deal with… and it’s not easy.

          • Jim Walker

            Bro, that is a tongue in cheek comment. Its simply I’m born a male, that’s all.

          • Stephen M. Zumbo

            No, not only. If God is real and he does not lie, he says human beings are not just the body they are Soul and Spirit as well as physical beings. That is how he created us. The human race was made to continue through the sexual function, including genetic mitosis. God claims to be Sovereign over everything even now however. He explains that the sin and suffering and pain in the world is because of sin and the consequences of that sin in history and biology and mental state and so on. confusion is not easy and it is not pleasant, but if we don’t start with the right premises, or confusion and our conclusions will inevitably be wrong. God said in Scripture that from the beginning he made people in two sexes. Not two of the same sex, or multiple Sexes or fluid sexes, or sexes that one can just choose as one wishes. Because our world and our nation and many people have chosen to go away from God standard and His whole Word on what and why he is done what he is done, we cannot possibly make good decisions about these difficult issues. Sadly, this pastor and his wife, who are responsible for this child before God, made a wrong decision out of merely feeling loving toward their child instead of loving that child and teaching it the truth on a spiritual and physical level. God made genetics and genetics determines our sex. He explicitly says what the Sexes are , male and female . Ignoring this merely because of our feelings is dangerous, and leads us to do and believe things that are not right or true.

    • Kevin Carr

      You point to bad things and see God, however you didn’t go to “In the beginning” everything that God made was good and with man he said very good. It was man that chose to rebel against his creator and as the Bible declares, “through one man death entered”. Man and this world are fallen, that is why there is disease and birth defects etc…

      This couple’s son may have gravitated toward the feminine things but did they ever try and affirm him in his maleness? Did the father spend time with him doing typically male things? Did he identify with his father as a male?

      You actually know for a fact, that Nancy doesn’t care about the welfare of these children or is it because she isn’t seeing things as you do?

      • glenbo

        >>”It was man that chose to rebel against his creator and as the Bible declares, “through one man death entered”. Man and this world are fallen, that is why there is disease and birth defects etc…”<>”This couple’s son may have gravitated toward the feminine things”<<
        Why?
        Because…
        Adam ate fruit?
        So why do you accept fruit sin death, disease etc, but not accept the fruit sin of a helpless little boy?
        What did this little boy do to deserve your rejection?

        • Kevin Carr

          It was the rebellion against God not. Why do you say we have all these things?I stated more than that, did you miss it, where and when did I reject or say I reject him?

          • glenbo

            >>>”It was the rebellion against God”<<
            Because Adam ate fruit.
            Ok, cool.
            Makes total sense.

          • Kevin Carr

            You didn’t answer the rest of what I said. And yes because Adam rebelled. What say you?

          • glenbo

            >>”You didn’t answer the rest of what I said.”<<
            I don't believe the bible is true.
            You cannot prove it is true.
            Therefore, you have no authority or say over others based on it, especially over those who are born different from the rest of us.

          • Kevin Carr

            So what you are saying is mine is just an empty opinion as is yours.

          • glenbo

            >>”So what you are saying is mine is just an empty opinion as is yours.”<<
            And what do you presume my opinion is…other than acceptance, tolerance, equality and love for ALL humans?

          • Shaquille Harvey

            Again what equality for all ?

          • glenbo

            >>”Again what equality for all ?”<<
            What equality? Seriously? You need this explained to you?

            The equality for all LGBT people to enjoy the exact same rights as you and I do.
            To be able to marry the one of their choice.
            To not have to worry about being fired or evicted for what they do with their genitals in the privacy of their homes.

            To not have to be denied service for absolutely no rational or logical reason.

            The same equality the Civil Rights Act of 1967 did for African Americans.

            To not be denied basic human rights only because of who you are.

            THAT equality.

          • Shaquille Harvey

            “To be able to marry the one of their choice.”
            Really so are those rights as for people who are theses relationships such as; polygamy, polyandry, bisexual unions and so on or not ?

            “To not have to worry about being fired or evicted for what they do with their genitals in the privacy of their homes.”
            Where is most of this happening now ?

            “To not have to be denied service for absolutely no rational or logical reason.”
            Right but you’re ok with restricting people’s religious liberty and convictions and fact that in business, especially privately owned, people can make transactions with whoever they want or don’t want to.

            “The same equality the Civil Rights Act of 1967 did for African Americans.”
            Right so you’re comparing the Jim Crow laws, segregation to not being able to get married then ?

          • glenbo

            >>” Really so are those rights as for people who are
            theses relationships such as; polygamy, polyandry, bisexual unions and so on or not ?”<>” Where is most of this happening now ?“<>” Right but you’re ok with restricting people’s
            religious liberty and convictions”<>” Right so you’re comparing the Jim Crow laws”<<

            Nope.

            I’m comparing bigotry to bigotry.

            I’m comparing discrimination to discrimination. What’s the difference as to who it is done to or why it is being done??

          • Shaquille Harvey

            “Nope. Just a monogamous joining of 2 people and nothing else. Same-sex monogamy harms nobody. So there is no rational reason to ban it.”
            Why ? Why two ? If we’re changing it to encompass same sex why not encompass it for others in the name of equality?
            I thought you would for bisexual marriage because you were for the LGBT group and their equality, and what of those who are gay but want a 3 person marriage ? Should they be denied and why ? Also how if theses groups also get married, how do you know it will harm people?

            “Too many to list.
            It is legal to do so in most of America…the land of the
            free.”
            Then please state what are they ? As for the land of the free yes American has freedom such as; religious liberty- able to freely practise one’s faith, freely to use or speak freely (first amendment),
            and so as this is backed up by the constitution. America also has had for a long time freedom to do business transactions with ever they want its called the free market, and this applies to any businesses that are privately owned.

            “Nope.
            Nobody is keeping you from going to church or praying to your imaginary God.
            Nonsense.”
            Except I can be fined for not using the correct imaginary genders ?

            “Nope.
            I’m comparing bigotry to bigotry.
            I’m comparing discrimination to discrimination. What’s the difference as to who it is done to or why it is being done??”
            You’re comparing two different situations here, which many would find very offensive especially considering it would stating that you’re degrading segregation in its entirety in history. Also for discrimination, people based it on that of an objective moral standard, that segregation was was not objectively good or morally good and went against the framework of declaration “We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; “. As for discrimination concerning marriage, if same sex marriage not being legal was discrimination then I have news places such as the United States has been discriminating for long time as they have discriminated anything outside of the realms of the union between 1 man and 1 women. The fact that it’s okay to force someone to go against their religious convictions and liberty is not respectful but totalitarian and goes against someone’s rights, liberty, and the American framework. Doing this is in itself discrimination and bigotry.

          • glenbo

            >>”Doing this is in itself discrimination and bigotry.”<<
            Sure.

          • glenbo

            >>”As for discrimination concerning marriage, if same sex marriage not being legal was discrimination then I have news places such as the United States has been discriminating for long time as they have discriminated anything outside of the realms of the union between 1 man and 1 women. The fact that it’s okay to force someone to go against their religious convictions and liberty is not respectful but totalitarian and goes against someone’s rights, liberty, and the American framework. Doing this is in itself discrimination and bigotry.”<<
            Interesting.
            Why can't gay people get married?
            Is it because they are gay?

          • Shaquille Harvey

            Why can’t polygamists, polyandrists, bisexuals get married then ?

          • glenbo

            >>”Why can’t polygamists, polyandrists, bisexuals get married then ?”<<

            They can, but only to just one of their partners.

            Why don't you answer my question?

            I shall repeat it:

            Why can't gay people get married?
            Is it only because they are gay?

          • Shaquille Harvey

            And I’ll answer why just one partner?

          • glenbo

            Polygamy and polygyny is a form of human rights abuse as it violates the dignity of women and children, lowers their status and leads to discriminatory actions. Polygamy does not work in the best interest of the
            women and certainly not for the children born into such a situation who are prone to more abuses and neglect. Children in polygamous “families” are subjected to affections and resources being divided/diluted and they grow up believing gender inequality is normal and acceptable.

            Polygamy is harmful not only to the spouses involved (almost exclusively women) but it is demonstrably to children, therefore it can never be lagal.

            Polygamy will never be legal and certainly not for such a
            reason as…”well gays can marry now, so why can’t we?” Anyone with any common sense can see it is a harmful practice and not justifiable simply because 2 monogamous members of the same sex can marry.

            Furthermore, there is no correlation between gay marriage and polygamy:

            1) Gay marriages are monogamous. 2) Gay marriages are based on an equal partnership. 3) Gay marriages are not producing children who will be coerced into polygamy. 4) Children of gay couples learn far more about
            gender equality and fairness than children of polygamists.

            When a marriage is based on an unequal distribution of power and control within a relationship and one sex can have multiple spouses, the structure itself becomes inherently abusive.

            Besides that’s not what we’re talking about. Gays just want to be able to marry someone instead of no one.

            People who come for polygamy are going to come primarily through the First Amendment and religious liberty, not primarily through gay marriage.

            And the implications, of course, are totally different for
            marrying multiple people which is why I think that if polygamy is going to get argued in the courts, it’s primarily going to be argued by religious people as
            a form of religious liberty. It won’t involve LGBT people.

            America’s problem is not that we have too many marriages, it’s that we have too few marriages. The problem isn’t that gay people want to get married, it’s that straight people are not getting married or not staying married.

            And I think same-sex marriage helped set the cultural
            example that marriage remains the gold standard for committed relationships in America, something everyone can and should aspire to. Polygamy, of course,
            points in the exact opposite direction.

            Polygamy and gay marriage are opposites, not equivalents.

            The opportunity to marry is a fundamental right and no one should be deprived of it.

            Procreation and child rearing doesn’t require marriage and marriage doesn’t require procreation.

            Polygamy is harmful not only to the spouses involved (almost exclusively women) but it is demonstrably to children, therefore it will never be legal.

            Gay marriage is not harmful to anyone.

            You can define and restrict marriage as a contract between 2 people and not have a “slippery slope.” But what stops us from allowing other variations? The answer is really simple. We allow people to own
            rifles, pistols and semi-automatic weapons but we don’t allow them to own fully automatic weapons, hand grenades, RPDs and nuclear weapons. The 2nd amendment has restrictions.

            We can always make an arbitrary stopping point. The slippery slope argument fails because we can decide X is the limit. The question is how do you go about determining what is the best limit to encourage everyone else’s freedoms, safety, protections and rights? Probably the same way we define gun
            ownership rights…most likely as an ‘as needed’ basis, and not an ‘as desired’ basis.

            Every time someone wants to move the line/limit, it MUST be re-argued. The assumption polygamy MUST be legal when gay marriage becomes legal is a smoke and mirrors fear invoking illogical irrelevant absurdity.

            Those who are against same-sex marriage want their
            “beliefs” of an imaginary entity based on no evidence whatsoever to trump the real rights of real human beings living here in the real world.

            I’m sorry to break it to you, but this is not how justice in
            a civil rights oriented democratic society works. Justice doesn’t work on imaginary beliefs. It works on tangible reality. And if you don’t like it, tough.

            I don’t care what you believe so long as what you believe is not used to legislate in this country and affect the rest of us in this country in spite of the beliefs of the rest of us.

          • glenbo

            Polygamy and polygyny is a form of human rights abuse as it
            violates the dignity of women and children, lowers their status and leads to
            discriminatory actions. Polygamy does not work in the best interest of the
            women and certainly not for the children born into such a situation who are
            prone to more abuses and neglect. Children in polygamous “families”
            are subjected to affections and resources being divided/diluted and they grow
            up believing gender inequality is normal and acceptable.

            Polygamy is harmful not only to the spouses involved (almost
            exclusively women) but it is demonstrably to children, therefore it will never
            be legal.

            Polygamy will never be legal and certainly not for such a
            reason as…”well gays can marry now, so why can’t we?” Anyone with
            any common sense can see it is a harmful practice and not justifiable simply
            because 2 monogamous members of the same sex can marry.

            Furthermore, there is no correlation between gay marriage
            and polygamy:

            1) Gay marriages are monogamous. 2) Gay marriages are based
            on an equal partnership. 3) Gay marriages are not producing children who will
            be coerced into polygamy. 4) Children of gay couples learn far more about
            gender equality and fairness than children of polygamists.

            When a marriage is based on an unequal distribution of power
            and control within a relationship and one sex can have multiple spouses, the
            structure itself becomes inherently abusive.

            Besides that’s not what we’re talking about. Gays just want
            to be able to marry someone instead of no one.

            People who come for polygamy are going to come primarily
            through the First Amendment and religious liberty, not primarily through gay
            marriage.

            And the implications, of course, are totally different for
            marrying multiple people which is why I think that if polygamy is going to get
            argued in the courts, it’s primarily going to be argued by religious people as
            a form of religious liberty. It won’t involve LGBT people.

            America’s problem is not that we have too many marriages,
            it’s that we have too few marriages. The problem isn’t that gay people want to
            get married, it’s that straight people are not getting married or not staying
            married.

            And I think same-sex marriage helped set the cultural
            example that marriage remains the gold standard for committed relationships in
            America, something everyone can and should aspire to. Polygamy, of course,
            points in the exact opposite direction.

            Polygamy and gay marriage are opposites, not equivalents.

            The opportunity to marry is a fundamental right and no one
            should be deprived of it.

            Procreation and child rearing doesn’t require marriage and
            marriage doesn’t require procreation.

            Polygamy is harmful not only to the spouses involved (almost
            exclusively women) but it is demonstrably to children, therefore it will never
            be legal.

            Gay marriage is not harmful to anyone.

            You can define and restrict marriage as a contract between 2
            people and not have a “slippery slope.” But what stops us from
            allowing other variations? The answer is really simple. We allow people to own
            rifles, pistols and semi-automatic weapons but we don’t allow them to own fully
            automatic weapons, hand grenades, RPDs and nuclear weapons. The 2nd amendment
            has restrictions.

            We can always make an arbitrary stopping point. The slippery
            slope argument fails because we can decide X is the limit. The question is how
            do you go about determining what is the best limit to encourage everyone else’s
            freedoms, safety, protections and rights? Probably the same way we define gun
            ownership rights…most likely as an ‘as needed’ basis, and not an ‘as desired’
            basis.

            Every time someone wants to move the line/limit, it MUST be
            re-argued. The assumption polygamy MUST be legal when gay marriage becomes
            legal is a smoke and mirrors fear invoking illogical irrelevant absurdity.

            Those who are against same-sex marriage want their
            “beliefs” of an imaginary entity based on no evidence whatsoever to
            trump the real rights of real human beings living here in the real world.

            I’m sorry to break it to you, but this is not how justice in
            a civil rights oriented democratic society works. Justice doesn’t work on
            imaginary beliefs. It works on tangible reality. And if you don’t like it,
            tough.

            I don’t care what you believe so long as what you believe is
            not used to legislate in this country and affect the rest of us in this country
            in spite of the beliefs of the rest of us.

          • Kevin Carr

            Just what exactly do you believe about Jesus Christ?

          • glenbo

            >>”Just what exactly do you believe about Jesus Christ?”<<
            I believe the exact same thing about Jesus as I do Mohammad.
            What exactly do you believe about Mohammad?

          • Shaquille Harvey

            What is that then ?

          • glenbo

            >>”What is that then ?”<<
            My belief in Jesus is the same as your belief in Mohammad.

          • Kevin Carr

            You first, since I asked first, you didn’t bother to articulate what you believe about Muhammad.

          • glenbo

            >>”you didn’t bother to articulate what you believe about Muhammad.”<<
            As an atheist, I don't believe in any gods or prophets.

          • Kevin Carr

            So everything, including humans is just a cosmic accident?

          • glenbo

            >>”So everything, including humans is just a cosmic accident?”<<
            I do not know how everything came to be.
            Nor would I be so arrogant as to presume I did.

          • Stephen M. Zumbo

            Understood. God has said that the gods of nations are demons. God has also said that a prophet whose word is not fulfilled 100% is not speaking for him, God. God in the Bible has said that he is a God who does not lie. His profits whose prophecies have come true are speaking for him. That is the key to know whether the scriptures are true. That also gives us hope that the scriptures that have not yet been fulfilled will be fulfilled, since they are speaking for the same God. you shouldn’t believe every spirit or every Prophet that you hear. In the New Testament Paul says to test the spirits to see whether they are telling the truth. he says if they don’t say what God says about Jesus Christ they are lying and shouldn’t be heard. In fact they should be put to death. Muhammad and any other Prophet that does not match up with scripture in the Bible are not telling the truth. The Bible ends with commandment not to change or add to anything that God has said in his word. That is the sin of Islam and Muhammad. He heard from someone in that cave but I believe it was a demon masquerading as an angel of God, which the Bible actually says he does do, and if we’re not careful we can be deceived. That is also the reason for a written record, that God was smart enough and powerful enough to use human agents to write what he meant to be written exactly as he meant it. Muhammad and Islam fail the test from the beginning. In fact all of the religions fail the test when put against the scriptures carefully and correctly.

          • glenbo

            There is no rational reason to believe in the bible or God.
            Your incessant meanigless preaching is a waste of time.

          • Stephen M. Zumbo

            I’ve given you plenty of rational reasons over the last 3 days. Have you read what I said have you thought about it or just spewed and other response? How do you know that you are right? How do you know that you are being rational? How do you know that logic exists?

          • Stephen M. Zumbo

            Jesus said, by their fruits you shall know them. What is the fruit of what Muhammad said, wrote and did? How is that different from the fruit of what Jesus Christ did, said, and what Believers in him have written? I have read about the history of Islam and Muhammad, and I have read the history of Christianity and striven to live out what the Bible commands and what God and Jesus say will happen if I believe and follow after them. The distinction between Islam and true Christianity is clear. Also Islam claims that Allah can and does lie to his followers. the Bible says God is not a man and has a character that does not lie. He Stakes his eternal reputation on what He says in the Scripture. Based on my research and the things I believe God has done in my life since I began to walk with him and began to know the scriptures, I am staking my my life and my eternity on what have learned and seen in the scriptures and in the lives of Christians and my own life. I urge you to reconsider and read the Bible yourself with an open mind, if you really want answers. God has promised that if you seek him with all your mind and your spirit, he will be found by you, and you will know the truth. Have you done all that?

          • glenbo

            >>”God has promised that if you seek him with all your mind and your spirit, he will be found by you, and you will know the truth.”<<
            There is no reason to "seek" something that exists only in your imagination.
            Especially one that condones slavery, rape and murders children and tells me to murder my LGBT brothers and sisters for no logical reason.

          • Stephen M. Zumbo

            Again, how do you know that God exists only in my imagination? What would it actually take for you to believe that God exists? What would it take for you to believe that the Bible is God word and that it is true?

            Where in the Bible does it say to murder these people? It may say that God will judge them at some point, but he will do that to all of us who haven’t put her faith in his Redemptive plan. It does say that if people are unwilling to listen to what God has said is morally right or wrong, then we are too walk away at some point.

            I’m sorry if I’m repeating myself after your thank you for debating comment but I keep noticing statements and keep getting called back to the thread yes I’m sorry if I’m repeating myself after your thank you for debating comment but I keep noticing statements and keep getting called back to the thread in my email. Awesome I see another comment in answer to your as an atheist I don’t believe in any gods or Prophets quote that they haven’t approved for posting, so I see why you might not be clear about what I’m trying to say.

          • glenbo

            As I said, I have no reason to believe God is anything other than imaginary. If God is real to you, fine. Just don’t bother me or anyone else unwilling with it.

          • Billy Chickens

            Glenbo, you really haven’t got a clue do you? You don’t even know what you believe. You just make it up day by day according to what they tell you on CNN and in the Huffpo.

          • glenbo

            >>”You just make it up day by day “<<
            What am I making up?

          • Billy Chickens

            Your outlook on life. How life is to be lived. You think life is to be lived according to what you are told by CNN and the Huffpo, don’t you? You only read novels by Gabriel Garcia Marquez and have Frida Kahlo as your role model.

          • glenbo

            >>”You think life is to be lived according to what you are told by CNN and the Huffpo, don’t you?”<<
            No. I think all life and all people's lives are to be respected, whether L,G,B,T Christian or atheist and yes, even Muslim.
            My outlook is based on ensuring the well-being of all humans, whether I agree with them or not, or like them or not.
            What others believe or don't believe matters not.
            Who or what you are matters not.
            All people are to be respected.

          • Billy Chickens

            Yes, the Quran condones slavery, rape and child murder, stoning, mutilating and so on. Agreed.

            You SAY you respect all people’s lives and outlooks, so what’s the problem then? Why are you even here commenting on The Stream trying to get people to agree with YOU?

            Since you SAY that you respect everyone, (“All people are to be respected.”) then you are saying you respect President Trump, right? And if what I believe doesn’t matter to you (“What others believe or don’t believe matters not.”) why do you get upset when others don’t believe what you believe? Why don’t you just let people believe what they want and leave them alone? No texting irate political tirades to family members to show your brilliance. No deleting Facebook friends because they voted for President Trump. ……..See how two-faced you are? You say what others believe “matters not” but then you unfriend them because of their belief, and make enemies of family members because they weren’t in love with Hillary Clinton like you.?

            You’re on the Left Coast, but it’s late here on the East Coast and I’m done for the day. G’nite.

          • glenbo

            >>”Yes, the Quran condones slavery, rape and child murder, stoning, mutilating and so on.”<<
            The BIBLE condones these things.

          • Shaquille Harvey

            Why ? Why is that objectively good ? What makes that right ?

          • glenbo

            >>”Why ? Why is that objectively good ? What makes that right ?”<<
            Please clarify your question.
            What makes what good/right?

          • Stephen M. Zumbo

            I think I already answered this, but I see the stream is holding up one of my post for approval. Who are you to say what one believe or doesn’t believe doesn’t matter? What other people believe in do in fact does matter. If one of your friends said they could jump off a building and survive a hundred story fall would you respect that belief? if another friend told you they could swim from San Francisco to Orlando and you knew they couldn’t despite what they believed you wouldn’t tell them they were wrong and stop them from doing what they’re doing? Yes all people are to be respected, but not all actions by all people are to be respected. I’m not sure what brands age book you’re talking about Quran Bible??

            The Bible does not condone slavery, at least the kind of slavery you’re thinking of. Servitude among the Jewish people was allowed by God when people could not pay their debts. They were to work for the person they owed for seven years, but then that owner was to release them and to cancel the remaining debt. Clearly, American slavery was nowhere near the biblical standard, even though the slave Society tried to justify it using biblical misunderstanding. Superior The Bible certainly does report rape when it happened but it always asserts the terrible effects of that send on that person or that family who chose to do wrong.

            . So you’re understanding of the Bible he is incorrect. Plus if you don’t know what God standard is all you’re doing is picking and choosing from what you think the Bible says instead of finding out for yourself what it really says and how it applies and when and where. So you do need to backup and rethink the statement statements you made above above.

            Why should people be respected? Because you think so? No God says they have value because he created them with his image , is character his ability to think and reason and love . But they’re only doing those things correctly if they’re doing them in line with what says his loving not what we think is loving if we are not in line with his standard . Can what the the LGBT Lobby asserts be true if God says that the lifestyles are living, and the civil rights they’re insisting on are in fact sin according to him?

            How can you be sure that your meeting the well-being of all people if you’re not doing what the creator of people says you should do for them and say to them?

          • glenbo

            There is no reason to believe the bible that allows the beating to death, purchasing of and ownership of human lives as property is true.
            If you cannot prove your bible is true, you cannot use it to influence the lives of others.

          • Stephen M. Zumbo

            I’m actually trying to find the OMG response that you gave so I can see what I wrote or who I was accidentally responding to, but I haven’t found it yet. But since I’m scrolling on by time I have to say, by your logic then since you can’t prove the Bible isn’t true, you have no basis to disagree with it other than your own personal opinion, which is no better or worse than mine according to The evolutionary worldview. What matters is whether one of us survives. Secondly, you show again that you don’t really know what the Bible actually says. The fact that Americans use the Bible to the idea of American slavery of African men and women was shameful at the time and still is. The Egyptian Pharaoh’s enslaved Jews and treated them cruelly for over 400 years. God never condone what Egypt did, though he foretold that it would happen and use Pharros unwillingness to repent to eventually gain the release of the Jewish people from Egypt. Hebrew slavery of their own people is in no way like American slavery of blacks. Hebrews were allowed to put themselves under bondage to a person they could not pay their debts back to. But the owner was required to release said person whenever they finished paying off their debt or within 7 years whichever came first. Owners of Hebrew slaves were also required to treat them very carefully , a fact that American slaveholders conveniently ignored along with the others mentioned above like releasing them after a 7 year term of service. Jewish people people put themselves under another’s Authority because they couldn’t find work or eventually because they loved their master master and didn’t want to leave them. Does that sound like the American system of slavery?

          • glenbo

            Exodus 21:20,21

          • Stephen M. Zumbo

            That’s convenient for you but not valid argument. Just because you believe something isn’t true doesn’t make it not true. From the very first verse, the Bible asserts it is true.” God created the heavens and the Earth. ” Genesis 1:1. Without proof and without apology, God says he has authority over you. The Word of God claims it has authority over you. Fulfilled prophecy throughout the scriptures proves that God exists. The commands in Scripture show that God has authority over you , and reveals what he expects of you. The Bible is clear that there are standards outside of the human mind and body that originate in God. Even logic originated in God, not in man, because God is logical. Taken as a whole, the scriptures reveal many things that we would not know unless God revealed them, and confirms things that we have learned our true, but that God knew long before we did because he created them and he is truth and knows all truth. Jesus, who is God, told his disciples to do what he told them to do, and afterwards they would know whether what he said was true. John 7:17.

          • glenbo

            >>”From the very first verse, the Bible asserts it is true.”<>”Fulfilled prophecy throughout the scriptures proves that God exists.”<<
            There are no "fulfilled prophesies."
            A self declaring "truth" is not a truth.
            A self-fulfilling prophecy is not a fulfilled prophesy.
            There is no reason to believe the bible is true.
            There is no reason to believe God exists.

          • Stephen M. Zumbo

            No, because Adam and Eve were deceived or deliberately chose to ignore what God had lovingly commanded. God warn them ahead of time that if they went against his command they would die for spiritually and eventually physically. He’d also given them every other tree and every other fruit in the garden as good food. They chose to believe Satan’s lie that they would become like God if they ate the fruit, and they questioned God’s motive in testing Adam and Eve in this way and allowing Satan to tempt them. in my limited mind it seems like an unfair thing to do on both sides, but I believe God doesn’t do wrong so there must be a better reason for it then you are seeing with your sarcasm. Personally I would prefer that the sin had never happened, because from that perspective it seems like we would have a better world, no mental health problems, no physical or genetic issues, and we would be living as God originally intended. But since we are not, and the Bible actually says God cursed the ground and indeed the whole universe because of their sin, then God must have a reason for allowing it to happen, something that is better than any other scenario he could have allowed. how else do you explain evil. and warnings God gave actually have come true suffering death pain . If evolution is true and it’s just all survival of the fittest then your definition of evil and my definition of evil have no basis in truth it’s just surviving and doing what I feel like doing. you have no rational basis for complaining about any of this.

          • glenbo

            There’s no reason to believe the bible is true.

        • Stephen M. Zumbo

          Nothing. But since we are all of Adam, who rejected God’s loving commandment to enjoy all other fruits of the garden except one, which he explicitly told them not to eat, because if they did they would die spiritually and later physically and corrupt the goodness of the world and of all their descendants. Also, God cursed the universe because of their sin for the good reason that they will not have to live forever with the consequences, because you also provided Redemption through faith in the death burial and resurrection of Christ to pay the penalty for our sins. They believed that promise. I believe that promise and all that God has said in total about the reason for handicaps and death. If these things that actually happen for the reason that God says they happened, then we can’t believe anything that the Bible says about anything. And in fact, didn’t Satan say, has God actually said… When he tempted Eve. She chose not to go back to Adam, or he chose not to speak up if he was standing there within hearing, to clarify what God had said and why. That is why our world is so messed up, because we refuse to listen to God and His Story as recorded in the scriptures and Trust what it says about Our Lives on this planet and in the new Heaven and the new Earth sometime in the future, or in hell if we choose not to listen to God.

          • glenbo

            >>”that little boy has a sin nature”<>”if they did they would die spiritually and later
            physically and corrupt the goodness of the world and of all their descendants.”<>”God currently temporarily allowing death to end an
            individual sin”<>”He knows everything knew what they would do, but
            allowed it for some reason because he knows that the best outcome for history and the world and God’s glory was to allow it to happen.”<>”God is Sovereign over everything , says the
            scripture.”<<

            I have no reason to believe the bible is true.

            I have no reason to believe God exists.

            When you take religious nonsense out of the equation and replace it with Mother Nature, it makes perfect sense that we have earthquakes,
            tsunamis, disease, evil and genetic anomalies.

            It makes far more sense that we live in an exclusively
            natural world, that is uncaring and has so goal than to make massive ridiculous absurd excuses for a bumbling, failure of a creator.

            But eating fruit? Ludicrous.

            But I’m sure you tithe the mandatory 10% of your gross
            income every week, am I right?

          • Stephen M. Zumbo

            Again, you’re assuming that you are smarter or better than God. You are asserting that your opinion is the ultimate opinion. How do you know those children are being spared more suffering in a full life ? How do you know that he hasn’t brought them to himself because they’re too young to know better and he redeemed them by grace to allow them to enjoy heaven ?

            You do not have all the facts. How can you know why God did that? he doesn’t answer everything we would like. But he says he loves you. he says he does not lie and he says he knows everything. A sin cursed world seems like a bad thing to me as well, but my opinion doesn’t matter. And by the way, if you leave got out of the equation you don’t solve anything . you still have all the same problems, and no in fact you have no answer for why there’s death in suffering and evil in the world

            he warned the only two people on the planet who had a personal relationship with him not to do this one thing. He told Adam and Eve not to do one thing and yet gave them every other tree and plant in the garden to enjoy. How else would he know if they loved him unless there was a choice for them not to love him? They should have known better, especially because he warned them ahead of time what would happen , but they believed Satan’s lies instead of God’s promises. Perhaps they didn’t understand all the implications of what they were doing, but they should have realized that God had not steered them along had not ever done anything but love them and that should have been enough. That’s the point the fruit is not the point. You might think it’s ridiculous but I’ll bet if you were in the same situation or I was we both would have made the same wrong decision. in fact that’s probably the reason I should have suggested in the first place.

            A better question might be, why are any of us still living and breathing and enjoying the good things of life, when God already says because of our sin nature given to us by our first parents Adam and Eve, and our own practice of sin day after day year after year, that everyone of us deserve that from the smallest child to the oldest most Criminal person. Why does God allow you and me to keep breathing if he says we deserve death? why are you not dead why am I not dead in the tsunami?

            Mercy, God’s mercy. Jesus said he loved the people of Israel, and what because he couldn’t bless them and he would have because of their unbelief, but he also told them after a tragic accident killed a bunch of people, do you think those people are any less righteous than any other person? His answer was, no but unless you repent, (which means agree with God and what he says about us, and turn away from our sin and unbelief and trust and Obey him) you will all likewise perish, that is not just died but end up eternally dead in hell . Luke 13:1-5.

            That’s why what we believe matters. Because God has ordained that if we don’t obey and trust him him he will give us exactly what we’re asking for which is to be left alone and that will be hell. Without God and without any possibility of God or any good thing ever again.

            This is probably confusing because it’s answering something you ask today ago and maybe you’ve already gone beyond this question but thank you again for reading.

            I’m tired and thirsty and hungry. Good night.

      • Mensa Member

        >> Did the father spend time with him doing typically male things?

        You seem to believe an old and thoroughly disproven theory of gender. It’s probably not your fault. For some reason, some wings of the church absolutely reject what we are learning about trans people.

        While Freud and others thought it was parenting (ironic that Christians side with Freud!). But that was decades ago before hard science, especially in brain science.

        Trans brains look different. This could explain a lot. While the anti-trans activists talk as if gender is about ones “junk”, I believe that being a man or being a woman is more complex than that. Most people’s brains and “junk” are in sync but a persistent small percentage of people don’t neatly fit into their biological gender role.

        It’s not sin. It’s almost surely not bad parenting. They surely didn’t chose it. I doubt that God cares that much.

        • Shaquille Harvey

          Even though it is cited as a mental disorder.

        • Nobody Specific

          Trans brains DO NOT look different. This is another big lie. There are people with brains that seem to have characteristics more consistent with the opposite sex, some (emphasis), identify as trans. The vast vast majority of people who identify as trans have no identified unusual brain characteristics at all.

          There is zero science here. The numbers of people involved in basically ever study that as ever been done are to small to draw a conclusion strong enough to support administering drugs to developing children that will have life long consequences.

        • m-nj

          So you seem to fundamentally reject the idea that sin has tainted every aspect of our being… including messing up our brains! Even agreeing with your assumption that their brain does not match their body, that does not negate the fact that sin of Adam and Eve (in the broad overarching sense) initiated the decay of all creation, including all human beings, body/soul/spirit.

          This child was born with a defective brain, just like another child may be born with mental retardation or a cleft pallate BECUASE OF SIN’S ALL PERVASIVE INFLUENCE. And just like we would seek to cure or prevent other birth defects, or even other diseases later in life, we ought to seek to cure LGBT.

          You would never affirm that someone who has a brain defect that causes them to be violent, or gives them an over the top libido should not be helped. But somewhere along the way you have bought into the lie that LGBT is different, and should not be addressed in terms of fixing what is wrong (the the best ability we can here on earth… only God can truly heal).

          Instead these parents, one of which is a supposed “pastor”, affirm their child’s sickness… he can’t even shepherd his own dear child… how can he be expected to shepherd his flock… oh, i forgot, his church is all about “forgiveness” and “affirming” everyone in their sin. Sorry, but the real shepherd carries both a hook and a staff, one for protecting, and one for correcting the sheep.

    • Jim Walker

      “They explained that it was because he “gravitated toward typically feminine things.” ”
      When I was young, I’m very fond of playing “paper dolls” and dressing them and dollhouses. Does that make me being born gay ? At 2 years old ? Why do the pasta and wife are so eager to endorse it ? I see clearly the orientation is NURTURED.

      • glenbo

        >>” I see clearly his orientation was NURTURED.”<<
        Are you saying all transgendered people are that way due to nurturing?
        My trans friend that I have known for 16 years was anything but nurtured.
        Are you saying this is a condition that can be induced?
        Where do you get your knowledge of gender dysphoria from?

        • Jim Walker

          “My trans friend that I have known for 16 years was anything but nurtured.”
          Its his response and reaction to the environment he grew up in that nurtured his orientation.
          When someone came back straight, you immediately say that person was never LGBT to begin with.
          Some of them severed their manhood…

          But this stupid pasta and wife probably wanted a girl.
          No one, no one who loves their own children use Puberty blockers to suppress what they are born with to force and I will say abuse the poor child to become the opposite sex.
          At 2 years old, C’mon glenbo, this is absolutely ridiculous.

          • glenbo

            Where do you get your knowledge of gender dysphoria from? Tony Perkins?

          • Jim Walker

            So, do I need some PhD on this subject to be qualified to speak with you?
            Where did you get your knowledge then ? Your friend of 16 years ?
            I have a butch friend who got married happily with a 20 year old daughter… Oh she is not a butch to begin with ?
            Why can’t you accept that people can and will change… for the better?

          • glenbo

            >>”So, do I need some PhD on this subject to be qualified to speak with you?”<<
            If you dodge my questions, I can only assume you are not interested in factual evidence, and you are operating on a bigoted religious agenda.
            I'll ask it one more time:
            Where do you get your knowledge of human sexuality from?

          • Billy Chickens

            Um, probably from the fact that maybe he’s a normal heterosexual male with a wife and several children? I don’t know him, but that would be my guess, i.e., life experience and obeying the laws of nature.

          • glenbo

            >>”he’s a normal heterosexual”<>”obeying the laws of nature”<<

            Please define “normal.”

            Please define “natural.”

          • Billy Chickens

            If you don’t know what normal is or what natural is, the you have a depraved sense of morality.

          • glenbo

            >>”If you don’t know what normal is or what natural is, the you have a depraved sense of morality.”<<
            Why can't you answer my question?

          • Billy Chickens

            Because you didn’t ask a question.

          • glenbo

            >>”Because you didn’t ask a question.”<<
            Oh, I'm sorry.
            Let me try asking you two questions:
            What is your definition of "normal?"
            What is your definition of "natural?"

          • Billy Chickens

            You already know the answer to that. Don’t make such a pretense.

            But for the sake of the argument, let’s use your definition of normal and natural. Normal and natural for you means anything goes. For instance, your kind kills innocent life in the death chamber of its mother’s womb, but God forbid a prison send a vicious criminal to the death chamber.

            Therefore using your morality I can do anything I want. I can go out and kill an innocent person on the street, or run over a crowd in a semi truck killing as many people as possible – men, women and children. That’s normal and natural human behavior for people who have depraved morals.

          • glenbo

            >>”You already know the answer to that.”<<
            Thank you for answering my two questions.
            Now that we both understand and agree what is normal and natural, I have two more questions:
            Is a child who is born with two heads "natural" and "normal?"
            Is a child who is born intersex "natural" and "normal?

          • Billy Chickens

            OK then! You agree that I can go out and kill indiscriminately. What I don’t understand though is why I’d be put in prison while abortionists go free. It’s either one or the other…killers all go to jail or killers all go free. Why do you discriminate?

            Your two questions are absurd because you use extreme examples. And it isn’t “a child” …the example that you have used here before refers to TWO children. They have two minds, two personalities, and their parents love them very much.

            You want to blame everything on God. People with depraved morals do that to justify themselves, as if they are better than God, higher than He is, pure and perfect and better than anyone else in the world – better than their friends (if they have any) better than their families (hopefully family members will overlook your nastiness and love you anyway – except their love isn’t good enough for you, is it?) Only others with like mind are good enough for you but when the chips are down, they won’t be there for you because they have no moral (there’s that world again) responsibility for you. Only your family does, and if you treat your family like you treat the people on The Stream, you will be very lonely.

          • glenbo

            Avoiding questions dismisses you from this conversation.

        • Mensa Member

          glenbo

          >> My trans friend that I have known for 16 years was anything but nurtured.

          You got that one right. If anything it’s an understatement.

  • Gary

    It is interesting to watch people destroy themselves. Please keep us up to date as things deteriorate. You might also do an article on their “church” since it is self-destructing too.

    • Mensa Member

      These “bathroom bill” and “marriage protection” persecutions destroy others. I mean literally. People die.

      • Paul

        Next I’ll hear from you that God persecuted Sodom and Gomorrah

        • Mensa Member

          LOL. (too soon?)

      • Shaquille Harvey

        How does the bathroom bill destroy others ?

        • Mensa Member

          Fair question but I thought people knew since it’s been widely reported.

          Suicide rates among LGBT teens after these bills.

          If you work with teens, you surely know why this inevitably happens.

          • Gary

            Teens can’t bear the thought of using the restroom that matches their sex? You’re a joke.

          • Shaquille Harvey

            Suicide rates in the transgender community in particular was already high even way before the bill .

      • Gary

        Nonsense. What destroys people is their sin. Same thing that is destroying you.

        • Mensa Member

          Please don’t say “nonsense” unless you’ve actually done some research. But I’ll do it for you

          It’s documented and widely reported that suicides go up after these LGBT persecution bills.

          Google:

          “The True Harm of Bathroom Bills – The Atlantic”

          • Gary

            The suicides come with the perversion, not from the bills. It isn’t persecution to require that people use the restroom that matches their sex.

          • glenbo

            >>”The suicides come with the perversion and the insanity”<<
            Wrong.
            However, if what you say is true, you admit being LGBT is innate and NOT a choice.
            But that aside, you refuse to research actual facts, yet you continue to speak with authority.
            If you refuse to research actual data, you have no business speaking with any degree of authority on the subject.
            You only prove you are a religion driven hate-filled bigot.

          • Andrew Mason

            Is depression innate or a choice? As I understand it those diagnosed with depression have a greater chance of other mental health issues, or was it that those with such issues are more likely to be depressed? I forget now. Part of treating depression is choosing whether to embrace it or reject it. Like a broken arm it takes a while to heal, and after healing a permanent weakness may result. While homosexuality is obviously somewhat different to depression there could be correlations – comorbidity which predisposes practicing homosexuals towards suicide for instance.

            Are you saying being religion driven is a problem? If so you might want to consider just who is expressing the bigotry.

          • glenbo

            >>”Is depression innate or a choice? As I understand it those diagnosed with depression have a greater chance of other mental health issues, or was it that those with such issues are more likely to be depressed?”<>”Are you saying being religion driven is a problem? If so you might want to consider just who is expressing the bigotry.”<<
            Nope. Anyone who hates gay people are bigots. Your reasons why you hate gays is irrelevant. Just that most gay hating bigots use religion as their source of hate.
            But not all people of religion abuse it as you do. My best friends are religions. Religion is not my pet peeve…bigots are.

          • Andrew Mason

            Actually I wasn’t asserting homosexuals are depressed at all. I simply pointed out an alternative mental condition which can have complications, or can be a complication for other issues. If homosexuality is a mental abnormality – no I’m not asking you to accept this, then it is reasonable to suggest there may be other mental issues as well – comorbidity.

            Okay fine hating homosexuals is wrong, I’ll even grant there’s a theological basis to that whether or not you’re asserting that. The problem is that what’s classified as hate isn’t considered hate by others.

            And to grab a point you mentioned upthread – homosexuals don’t want to be persecuted by others, outside the Islamic world, and perhaps a few places like North Korea – I’m speculating here since I’ve not heard anything on the topic, where are they persecuted? When was the last time that a homosexual was arrested for being a homosexual? Christians can point to campaigns to get staff sacked, businesses closed, organisations firing workers, businesses being sued, religious people being arrested or even sentenced to jail (Ake Green) for being Christian, as well as death threats, violence, libeled, and subjected to vitriol and hatred. Does the reverse exist? On an ad hoc illegal basis I’m sure it does – criminals commit crimes, but on the same scale, and with the same level of official approval?

          • glenbo

            >>”The problem is that what’s classified as hate isn’t considered hate by others.”<>”where are they persecuted? When was the last time that a homosexual was arrested for being a homosexual?”<>”Christians can point to campaigns to get staff sacked, businesses closed, organisations firing workers, businesses being sued, religious people being arrested or even sentenced to jail (Ake Green) for being Christian,”<>”death threats, violence, libeled, and subjected to vitriol and hatred.”<<
            Why would this be done to Christians unless they instigated it.
            Treat others badly, you can expect consequences.
            If Christians didn't act like childish spoiled jerks, they wouldn't be angering anyone.

          • Andrew Mason

            So the homosexual rejection of an entire demographic group – Bible believing Christians is irrational and hateful according to you? Good to know. At least Christians point at the Bible which says homosexuality is wrong, and that God loves everyone.

            No clue what FADA is but RFRA are much needed protection from homofascism. How can you run a business if it will be sued out of existence by the first offended person to walk in the door?

            Gah marriage bans aren’t persecution. Being denied the ability to do something wrong, something that has never existed since Sodom and Gomorrah, is not persecution. As for lack of employment, you might want to tell all the high flying CEOs that they can’t actually do their jobs because they’re persecuted homosexuals. Can’t comment about housing rights – I’m not aware of any issues.

            Excuse me? A pastor – Ake Green, gives a sermon and is then sentenced to jail. Jesus says He’s God and gets sentenced to crucifixion. Based on your logic Jesus being God wasn’t the reason for His death.

            Instigated what? A meeting of individuals or a lecture does not instigate anything, but that doesn’t prevent those motivated by hatred. Or consider a couple of recent newspaper articles on domestic violence. The first said most Muslims believe Islam abhors violence, the second said evangelical Christians are the worst perpetrators of abuse. Both positions are blatant lies, but advance an agenda. The reason people hate Christians is because they hate what they stand for. Sadly I can only conclude this includes you too.

            John 15:18 – “If the world hates you, remember that it hated me first.

            The World hated Jesus so much it conspired to kill him. Christians shouldn’t expect better treatment, but do. Yes there are Christians who act … in unChristlike fashion, yes there are a lot of Christian In Name Only types who totally reject the Bible and instead preach politics or SJWism or some other ideology, but those targeted for hatred are the ones who stand firm on Biblical principles.

            Oh quick side note, given the homofascists are angering a lot of people, does that mean they are acting like childish spoiled jerks?

          • glenbo

            >>”Bible believing Christians is irrational and hateful according to you?”<<
            Nope. Never said that.
            Most of my Christian family, friends, and business contacts are fully accepting of LGBT people. They see NOTHING WRONG with treating them equally.
            And I am fully accepting of their faith, as well as my Buddhist and Muslim friends.
            Your idiotic rhetoric gives religion a black eye.
            You are so backed into a corner you are talking like a fool.

          • Stephen M. Zumbo

            But your friend’s opinions or actions, and your opinions and actions are not the standard. Every religion cannot be true because they konflict in their views . The only way we can know the truth about God and our world is if God revealed it to us . The Bible claims to be that Revelation and internally and externally proves it . Any religion that does not match the truth of God has revealed in the Hebrew and Christian is a false religion. God says the gods of the nations are demons. Demons are Servants of Satan who Jesus called a liar from the beginning. God is the one that decides ultimate truth and falsehood. Any belief system that doesn’t match What God Says is false and wrong. Those religions will be judged by God, in fact by his statement he is already judged them. They deserve a black eye and much worse because they don’t match what he has commanded throughout the scripture . They may be gracious people they may be kind people but their religion is false and wrong and they either are or will eventually be deceived.

            God has given mankind enough truth in the world around them and in their own hearts to prove that he exists. Jesus and the Bible are available to confirm this and to show who the true God is and exactly what God requires of us, including you and me.

            I’m sorry, glenbow, but you are the one who is backed into a corner and is talking foolishly.

            The fool says in his heart, there is no God.

            God says, if you seek me with all your heart and all your mind, I will be found by you.

            God says, I am not a man like you that I should lie.

            He condemned Israel when they all did what was right in their own eyes, just as we are doing as a nation today, without measuring our choices carefully against God’s revealed standard.

            Jesus commanded his disciples, do what I tell you to do and then you will know the truth of what I have commanded you. The truth will set you free.

            Psalm 119, the longest chapter in the Bible talks about the truth of the scripture given to us by God. It says, God’s word is truth.

          • glenbo

            I though I told you that there is no good reason to believe God exists.
            Why do you presume I must believe so?

          • Stephen M. Zumbo

            Because I’ve told you repeatedly that there are good reasons to believe God exists and tried repeatedly to explain them.. I apologize if I’m not doing a very good job.

            It’s not I am saying You must believe. Actually it is God who is insisting, God first and foremost, because God says says You Must Believe that he exists and is a rewarder of those who seek him.. But God is also gracious, and through his word the Bible he gives us real answers to why the world is the way it is. If you have honest questions, God will find a way to answer them, or find other ways to draw you to him.

            But also, if you haven’t taken advantage of what God has already in the scriptures and in history why would you expect him to give you anything else in answer to your unbelief ?

            If you haven’t read the Bible from cover to cover and with an open mind, honestly asking him to show you the truth, and looked at history the same way, then you cannot make an assertion that God does not exist. You are free to assert that he doesn’t exist but you’re not dealing truthfully if you hold to that.

            The Bible itself says these things or alludes to them as it tells the story of God reaching down to mankind to correct our sin tongue but as I said it another place , the first verse of the Bible presumes the truth and expects you to believe it, in the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth. Genesis 1:1. Did you read the text and take it in by the power of God he will show you if it’s true or not just as I’ve said previously.

            again, I hope this is helpful.

          • glenbo

            Why should I believe the bible is true?

          • glenbo

            Are you saying your religious beliefs override my beliefs? Are my beliefs voided by your religion?
            Is this what you are asserting?

          • glenbo

            There is no reason for me to believe in God.
            And if you cannot prove God exists, you have no say on the lives of others.

          • Andrew Mason

            No I repackaged your words to present you with the opposing paradigm to see how you respond. Apart from truncating the quote to lose the sense of what I said, you’ve avoided the question. How do your Christian friends explain Leviticus 20 or Romans 1? I’m trying to gauge whether they are Christian In Name Only types or Bible Believing types. There’s quite a difference. If you’re conflating the two then you’re being dishonest.

            My ‘idiotic rhetoric’ is pretty much mainstream Christianity, at least for those who accept the Bible. And as for being a fool, I probably ought to take offense at your words but 1 Corinthians 3:18, 19 – Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you thinks that he is wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is folly with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their craftiness,”

            I don’t know about you but I’d much rather be a fool that God deems wise than a wise man God deems a fool 😀

          • glenbo

            >>” How do your Christian friends explain Leviticus 20
            or Romans 1?”<<

            I never thought to ask them! What a great idea! Thanks!

            I will and I will get back to you with their response.
            Excellent idea!

            What I do know about my Christian friends is that they
            accept LGBT people unconditionally and don’t see a need to treat them like crap, because they havn’t offended my Christian friends. They may offend God,
            but not my Christian friends. They support their right to live freely in society because they obviously do nothing wrong to society at large so there is no rational reason to treat them any different.

            I would assume my Christian friends believe in minding their own business because another’s sin belongs to the sinner and not to a by-standing Christian, therefore the so-called “sin” of any LGBT person is between the
            sinner and God. My Christian friends do the respectful and polite thing…they love their neighbors and mind their own business.

            They adhere to their religion respectfully by abiding by its rules and not imposition others with it. They are true Christians and not hate-filled bigots. They know Jesus doesn’t want them to hate or reject others and disagree with those Christians who propagate hate.

          • glenbo

            >>”those targeted for hatred are the ones who stand firm on Biblical principles.”<<
            Yes, the government is looking for Christians to haul off to jail for doing nothing wrong.
            No discrimination laws were ever broken by them.
            And their consciences are so strong, they would rather be fined, arrested and jailed.
            Here's the bitter truth, my friend.
            You have ignored everything I said so I am done wasting my time talking to you.
            The problem is not with honest hardworking tax paying citizens who do nothing wrong, have harmed nobody and contribute to society and many are raising children you don't wish to care about.
            The problem ISN'T gay people.
            The problem is your bigoted God.
            Take it up with him, of get out of the homo-serving business if your frail religion can't deal with them.

          • Stephen M. Zumbo

            None of us like bigots. Yes, anyone who hates anyone is a bigot. But just because a person is angry about something doesn’t necessarily make them a bigot.

            Jesus got angry and constantly told the leadership of the Jews that they were doing things wrong, based on what God says in the scripture. Read the 4 Gospels straight through out loud and you’ll be amazed. I did it with a group once and have never forgotten that impression. Jesus loves all people, especially those that are in bondage, but he did not hesitate to express to the leadership of the nation who should have known better when they were going against God’s word, and clinging to personal beliefs and traditions.

            Twice he took whips and drove the money changers out of the temple because they were doing wrong. So telling someone that you don’t agree with their understanding is not bigotry. “Be angry and sin not.” Says the Lord. That says that there is a way to be angry about an issue, to be right about an issue and not sin, even though you have strong opinions on a matter. It is humbling and we do have to be very careful. But that does not mean that we shouldn’t make the effort to hold up the truth to people people that are deceived or misusing it.

            Your mistake is to continually assume and assert that all people that don’t agree with you on this issue must be bigoted. Some people maybe. But that doesn’t excuse you in God’s eyes. You need to take careful thought on what he says in the scripture.

            Your devout friends and family members would certainly tell you that, if they truly believe and are seeking to obey what God has said therein. For me not to warn you and strive to point out your error *would* be bigoted.

            Jesus said, in His last words to His friends before returning to heaven, “Go into all the world and Make Disciples of all Nations, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.” Because he is God and Creator along with his father (Gospel of John, chapter 1) through the Spirit what He taught must be truth, and if you was with the father in creation then what God Said a creation, Jesus agrees with . In fact he reaffirmed the Genesis account of creation and marriage between Adam and Eve is real history. Jesus also promises to one day return as judge of the living and the dead, including you. He will judge all of us with perfect Justice without missing a thing. He will be fair. But Justice alone will leave all of us guilty before God , for all have sinned and all fall short of the glory of God.

            He says he loves us; he proved it in historyat the cross on Calvary in Jerusalem 2000 years ago when God put our sins on him so we could receive his righteousness by faith. And even that faith is a gift from God, Ephesians 2:8-10 we put our trust in him and what his word says. Jesus said, come on to me all you who are heavy laden and I will give you rest. He also said, whosoever Will May Come to me and those who come to me I will not cast out Do you do you see how consistent God is, do you see how vital it is to understand what the whole Bible says from beginning to end to interpret it correctly? Only then can a seeking person correctly understand all the wrong choices that humans are making , and a terrible future that those wrong choices will bring if they do not repent?

            Those who refuse to obey God are calling him a liar. When you refuse to listen to God, even in the face of what he is clearly revealed to be his will for you and all human beings, you are calling him a liar.

            May he teach you the truth of these things.

          • Stephen M. Zumbo

            Your logic continues to be flawed, glenbo. You are wrong to *say or assume* that anyone who says something different from what you think about gays and about religion is being hateful. If that were true then everything you *say and assert* about what about what others say is hateful, too, merely because it is different. You know that cannot be true. When you tell someone they’re using a tool incorrectly, and they are, is that hate? When someone is driving over the posted speed limit and a policeman pulls them over and explain to them that they are in error is that hate? No, of course not. He is merely reminding you of the standard for that road and warning you of the consequences, or even giving you a ticket to go before a judge and pay a fine or jail time. If you kill someone time of the consequences are even more severe. But they’re not necessarily hateful. In fact, not executing Justice is in fact hateful, not because you think so or I think so, but because God has said, if a man murders another man intentionally, God will require the murderers life. He may be spared for one reason or another, but the requirement is clear. God has said we deserve death for our sin, the wages of sin is death. Spiritual death and physical death. God is merciful and he allows us to live most of the time. But everyone sins everyday, and without God’s mercy we all face judgement. Sometimes people make choices which God says are wrong and God carries out sentence on them immediately. (See the story of ananias and Sapphira in the book of Acts in the New Testament, who lied not just to the apostles about what they were giving and doing , but as the Apostle said, you have lied to God. Dad kill them both on the spot for the lie.)

            Other times, God is merciful and allows them time to reconsider their actions and their thoughts and their words and why they do what they do. (See how God dealt with Pharoah when he repeatedly changed his mind about letting the people of Israel go rather than keeping them as slaves in Egypt. God was merciful but at the same time ratchet it up the consequences of pharaohs resistance. Eventually it cost pharaoh and his people, Egypt, their first born. Even at this, the pharaoh wouldn’t humble himself. Throughout the ordeal, Farrell kept hardening his heart again and again. Eventually, God hardened his heart permanently. He allowed the king to do what he wanted but the result was death.)

            Mercy from God is the case with most of us who are still breathing, though there may be physical and mental consequences to our bad choices. But he does not change His standard, even though humankind changes theirs, because all men will die physically and eventually remain permanently dead, fit only for separation from God ; which is what they have been telling God they wanted all along, if they reject what God has commanded.

            If those things are facts, they’re not hateful, they’re just telling the truth. You can reject the truth if you wish, but that doesn’t change God’s standard or the results that will come from the rejection.

          • Gary

            You are saying that suicides don’t happen because of perversion or insanity. Instead, suicides happen because people who are perverse and insane feel rejected by society. And if only people would celebrate their perversion and pretend they aren’t insane, everything would be fine. I disagree with you. And I don’t think you can prove your point.

            But you are right that I am religion driven bigot. And you are a bigot driven by what you believe to be true.

          • glenbo

            >>”And if only people would celebrate their perversion
            and pretend they aren’t insane, everything would be fine.”<>”And you are a bigot driven by what you believe to
            be true.”<<

            Please define bigotry. Then explain how it applies to me.

          • Gary

            I think lgbtq do want to be celebrated. They want to be endorsed, encouraged, considered normal, considered moral, and to be seen as no different from heterosexuals.

            Look in the dictionary. Everyone is a bigot. Everyone is intolerant of someone.

          • glenbo

            >>”They want to be endorsed, encouraged, considered
            normal, considered moral, and to be seen as no different from heterosexuals.”<>”Look in the dictionary. Everyone is a bigot.
            Everyone is intolerant of someone.”<<

            I am well aware of the definition.

            How does that describe me?

          • Gary

            I believe there are good reasons to treat them as immoral and abnormal.

            You are intolerant of Christians. Not that I mind that, but you are a bigot, even if you deny it.

          • glenbo

            >>”You are intolerant of Christians. Not that I mind that, but you are a bigot,You are intolerant of Christians. Not that I mind that, but you are a bigot”<<
            OH MY Gawd!
            My Mother is a devout Christian, so is my brother and lesbian cousin, my two best friends and my 3 best clients and several of my employees.
            You are full of it.
            It is BIGOTRY is despise. Your bigotry and abject ignorance is stupid, childish and absurd.

          • Gary

            I don’t think you have any idea what a real Christian is. And you are a bigot.

          • glenbo

            Thank you for engaging me in this conversation.

          • glenbo
          • Stephen M. Zumbo

            I read this just yesterday. Which one describes your response to Gary (and to me and to others) :

            “When you have you have the evidence on your side, argue the evidence. When you have the law on your side, argue the law. When neither the facts nor the law are on your side, attack the witness.”

            I’m glad you have people who care about you in your life. That is a blessing to you from God.

            That doesn’t change the fact that you have a wrong understanding on this issue. I’m glad your grandmother and brother are devout Christians. What have they told you from the scriptures about this issue? That doesn’t change the fact that you are responsible for your attitude towards God and his word, and they are for theirs.

            As for your lesbian cousin, if she is committed to that lifestyle she is being disobedient to God. Lesbianism is called sin in both the Old and New Testament, specifically because it goes against the order that God has established in his world. Marriage and sex are to be between a man and a woman for life. Anything else is sin and wrong. If she is a devout Christian she should know this. If she does not, she is not read all the scripture, or not read it carefully or devoutly on this issue. If she knows it, and is severely tempted by it to the point of not being able to stop engaging in lesbianism, she needs to if the god of Truth to give her the grace to do what is right everyday perhaps even hour by hour and minute by minute. But her understanding of sexuality is suspect, even as she treats others kindly in other areas of her life.

            Finally, I say again, it does not matter how many devout people you have around you. It matters what you will do about What God Says about your opinion and beliefs. Telling the truth in love is not being a bigot. God loves all your friends and relations, but he does not change his standard to make you feel better.

          • glenbo

            Thank you for this debate.

          • Stephen M. Zumbo

            You are welcome. I hope it was helpful. It was for me.

          • glenbo

            Are you saying your religious beliefs trump my beliefs?
            If so, why?

          • Stephen M. Zumbo

            I think so, yes. More correctly , as I have said those were on this wall, in response to you, I believe God statements in the Bible about the issues of sex and gender trumps your religious beliefs.

            actually, you haven’t given me any of your religious beliefs that have bearing on the original article above this comment wall, except you believe that God doesn’t exist and that there’s no valid proof of his existence or rather that I haven’t given you any. And to say that you know what love is, and that you love your family members and friends and they love you.

            I am saying that since there is so many varieties of opinions about what love is, and what right and wrong is, that without an outside unchanging standard you cannot know what the truth is about that topic or any topic. All you can know is what can be observed empirically and what you feel about something.

            Both those sources of information have to be interpreted by a higher standard. Having more complete information, or the meaning and purpose behind what you’re observing and feeling.

          • glenbo

            There is no reason for me to believe in God.

          • Stephen M. Zumbo

            I’ve given you reasons to believe in God elsewhere on this comment wall. I hope they were clear and useful for you. Ultimately, according to Genesis 1:1, God expects you to believe him.

          • glenbo

            >>”I believe there are good reasons to treat them as immoral and abnormal.”<<
            Really?
            Give me just one "good reason" why you should treat all LGBT people as "immoral an abnormal."
            Just one "good reason."

          • Stephen M. Zumbo

            How would you know that everyone is bigoted? That’s an assumption without evidence. The only way you could know that is if you yourself were God. God knows that because he knows everything and sees everything, but no human could possibly know that unless God reveals it. But you say there’s no evidence for God and you reject the Bible,, so how can you know?

          • glenbo

            You cannot prove your magic using God exists. Therefore, you have no say or authority over anyone else based on your imaginary belief.

          • glenbo

            >>”How would you know that everyone is bigoted? That’s an assumption without evidence”<<
            OH MY GAWD!
            Dude…
            I didn't say that!!!
            I was quoting Gary.
            You are truly messed up.
            Please don't write crap when you are stoned, okay?

          • Stephen M. Zumbo

            I finally found this part of the thread again! You are correct, glenbo, I was wrong. Gary said it and you were quoting him. I sincerely apologize for reading the quoted clip as a statement from you, rather than Gary. I’ll have to go look up the definition of bigoted, or Gary will say which dictionary he’s quoting it from, but I still disagree that everyone is a bigot.

            I don’t smoke, though I have had the experience at least once of getting a bit high from walking through a hallway full of smoking potheads. and I always make the effort to not write crap.

          • Stephen M. Zumbo

            None of the data is self-evident. All Facts must be both understood and interpreted correctly. Medical evidence and scientific evidence must be interpreted in light of the truth and the source of Truth. God is the ultimate source of Truth. Until you interpret your facts in the light of what God says in the Bible about humankind, sexuality, the sexes, you will not come to a right understanding of the evidence. Also, scientific and medical evidence and interpretation of the evidence changes over and over. This is to be expected. What the evidence means and how it is interpreted by finite, imperfect human beings can also change. People with an wrong agenda can also misuse the evidence and the interpretation of the evidence.

            God has none of these problems and he is , not you or me or any other human being , God the Creator is the source of the truth we keep asking you to consider along with the other evidence. Any particular view human can possibly be mistaken, but God cannot be mistaken. He invented human beings. He said he created them perfect and perfectly good in the beginning. He says there are two sexes, not multiple, and not fluid. He says humankind now corrupted in mind and body because of sin. If this is true, then exactly How is it bigoted to base your understanding of this evidence what the creator of Life says is right and wrong? To not do so is the thing that is foolish and wrong, and in fact, sinful.

          • glenbo

            I refuse to accept information as fact from someone who believes in magic.

          • Stephen M. Zumbo

            What gave you the idea that what I’m saying has anything to do with magic? That’s your description of what’s going on. That’s your supposed reason for rejecting everything I’ve said over three days. Have you read everything I said, you say none of it has any logic whatsoever?

            Again, I apologize if I’m not doing a good job of explaining and for my for poor typing skills or narrating skills using voice to text.

            Are you saying you won’t believe anything that you don’t see with your own eyes in until that you know exactly how it all works. Well again, I say you don’t have a problem with me, you have a problem with historical evidence, eyewitness testimony, the existence of the Jews throughout history when they should be out of existence considering how they been persecuted for the last four thousand years, and to a lesser extent the endurance of Christians to persecution right down to this very day.

            Why would anybody put themselves in that position if they knew for a fact that none of it was true and that they were suffering and dying for a lie? You are calling the human writers of the Bible Liars and you are calling God a liar also. So the onus is on you to prove that they are lying.

            To be gracious you’re not the only one who is rejecting the truth. We all do it until we come to the opposite conclusion. The Book of Romans says faith comes by hearing the word about God.

          • glenbo

            If you cannot prove your magic using God exists, you have no say or authority over anyone else based on your imaginary belief.

          • glenbo

            >>”God is the ultimate source of Truth.”<<
            How do I know God is real?

          • glenbo

            There is no reason for me to believe God is real.

          • Stephen M. Zumbo

            Good Christians should be loving and gracious you are correct about that. But Jesus said to the Samaritan woman who was caught up in religious error, those worship God must Worship in spirit and in truth. People who don’t graciously talk to their children or family members or friends about What God Says about human beings that he created and the standards that he holds to in the scriptures are not being loving. They are not sharing truth. God has a standard about the issue of human sexuality and how he created humankind and marriage. That standard is in the Bible from the beginning of the book. God says he he created mankind male and female. Not in other combinations, not on a fluid scale, and certainly not based on people’s feelings or opinions. He stated what he did in creation, and then he enshrined that in our genetics that caused the new life to be genetically male or female. Feelings do not reinterpret facts, but fax should be interpreted and understood in the light what the Creator says. Even in our fallen world which is no longer perfect because of sin and death and God’s curse on man, we can still learn things and collect facts. That never should overrule God’s authority to insist that people look to his standard for their final Authority. The truth does not always feel good to the one who hears it. That doesn’t lessen the fact that it is truth that needs to be obeyed.

            I myself have been suicidal at times, though not for the same reasons being discussed here. I did not commit suicide, first because I remembered that God is the author of life and therefore he has the right to give it and take take it, not me. Second, because I knew in my heart it was wrong, because I had read what God’s word says about murder and suicide. Third because I had Christian friends around me who encouraged me when I was considering the suicide alternative reminded me that I would be hurting other people if I gave into that , and sinning against myself and against God.

            I am so glad for these facts and people who were around me to remind me about them when I was in so much pain. The pain was cars by the fact I couldn’t see a way out of the situation, even though I knew the suicide option was not the right option because God says so. Not because of what people went on to share with me . I needed help to hold to that standard, to remember it, to think about it. In living according to truth is not always Pleasant . It itself can be painful .

            But in the deepest part of my depression I wasn’t thinking that, was thinking I wanted out from the pain. 40 years later I am so glad that I did not give in to that impulse. Life continues to be hard at times semicolon and I still sometimes get depressed about my life situation. But with both medical intervention and a spiritual attitude based on the truth of scripture I can still enjoy life and have hope.

            The people that are vicious and brutal toward people caught up in the transgender lie, are sinful and wrong. That doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t present truth to people on all sides, even truth they don’t want to hear. We may have to earn the right to be heard, and we always have to be gracious when we tell people what we believe and why, but we should always strive to speak the truth into the confusion.

            Grace, joy, and peace to you.

      • Jason Todd

        HAHAHAHAHA

        Is your name an indication of irony or sarcasm?

  • The American College of Pediatricians isn’t a professional organization, it’s a right-wing think tank.

    • glenbo

      The ACP is a phony splinter group of bigoted anti-LGBT conservatives who simply don’t like the fact that LGBT people should be allowed to be treated like humans…under the phony pretense of “caring” about the very children they throw under a bus….for the glory of God.

  • Linda

    I’m wondering if we are seeing more of this happening to young children because of chemicals and hormones in our food, water and air as well as radiation from cell phones. All these things accumulate and disturb brain chemistry. There is certainly a significant increase in brain tumours as well.

    • Mensa Member

      My mind doesn’t immediately go to those things as causing transgenderism but you are on the right track. It’s probably prenatal.

      Fetal exposure to the mother’s hormones is hugely important for sexual development (we all start out female). It’s easy to think of things that could disrupt that including some of those you listed. But it cant be exclusively those things because trans people have been around during all of history.

      • Shaquille Harvey

        And so why do you go straight for it being innate?

      • Jason Todd

        HAHAHAHAHA

      • Paul

        What you are saying here is it is a sickness

      • GLT

        Mensa Member,

        “(we all start out female).”

        If the ferilized egg carries the XY chromosome it will be male. Simply because the hormones necessary for male development do not kick-in until a few weeks later it does not mean the zygote is female in the practical sense of the term. As our gender is determined at the moment of conception we do not all start out as female.

        • Trilemma

          Sometimes, a fertilized egg that carries XY chromosomes is born a woman.

          • GLT

            It can occur, but it is extremely rare and again not conclusive proof all embryos start out as females. Where it has occurred in mice the XY female has turned out to be sterile.

          • Trilemma

            If you look at the DNA only, then you’re right; embryos start out either male or female.

            If you look at the appearance of the embryo at around 7 weeks, both female and male look the same. But, because the testes are located where the ovaries are and there’s no penis, the embryo looks more female than male. Also, the embryo will develop female anatomy unless male hormones cause it to develop male anatomy. If the male hormones are not able to do their job, an XY female results. From that perspective, all embryos start out female.

            Since an embryo starts out with both the structures that could become female anatomy as well as the structures that could become male anatomy, it probably would be more correct to say that all embryos start out undifferentiated.

        • glenbo

          >>”As our gender is determined at the moment of conception we do not all start out as female.”<<
          Why do males have nipples?

          • GLT

            I really don’t know but it is hardly conclusive proof all embryos start out as females.

          • glenbo

            >>”I really don’t know”<<

            Those who "really don't know" stuff should refrain from speaking as if they do know until fact are either adequately researched and/or verified

            From Live Science . com:

            {___"After the testes are formed, the male fetus begins producing testosterone at about nine weeks of gestation, changing the genetic activity of cells in the genitals and brain. But by then, those nipples aren't going anywhere.
            Human development explains why males have nipples. But why do men keep this vestigial structure? (A vestigial body part does not serve an evolutionary purpose.)

            For starters, having nipples isn't detrimental for males.
            "There's no real metabolic cost to having nipples," Tattersall said.

            Furthermore, just because men don't need nipples, it's not exactly an evolutionary priority to get rid of them."—}

          • GLT

            glenbo,

            “Those who “really don’t know” stuff should refrain from speaking,…”

            You asked me a question and I gave you an honest answer, so, exactly what is your problem?

            Your little cut & paste does not answer your query either, which would lead me to believe you really don’t understand your own question. And in case you haven’t been paying attention, the evolutionary use of the term vestigial is just a form of saying, I don’t know. Many organs once labeled by evolutionists as vestigial are now known to have important functions. It is just one more example of how evolution simply tells stories to drive its narrative only to be forced to retract them later as new evidence comes to light.

          • glenbo

            Thank you.

          • Stephen M. Zumbo

            1) A subtle clue pointing to a common designer, who at the same time has different purposes and uses for these similar-looking body parts. Women can nurse a child through nipples, men cannot.

            2) both sexes can receive sensation and pleasure through touching the nipple.

            3) and to speculate further, just a thought, perhaps male chests would look unfinished if they didn’t have nipples and females did. 🙂 😉

            4) Another subtle clue that, though they are different in many ways, the two sexes were designed by a common designer, and in fact, made for each other. No other known living thing looks like humans, or that it was made to make up a human pair

          • glenbo

            Nonsense.

      • Stephen M. Zumbo

        There may be genetic components that predispose people to certain choices. They may have to struggle with certain feelings or desires more than others. Since we live in a fallen world due to sin and death, our feelings and emotions and desires must be evaluated against an outside standard. Even our interpretation of facts can be wrong. Just because people have been doing something or feeling something throughout history doesn’t make it right. Ultimately, a careful, meditative understanding of God’s commands and desires for us have to evaluate the rightness of what we are feeling and how we should act of those act. living out the truth is never easy especially when you have to go against the tide to do it.

        • glenbo

          Why do you insist that I must believe your imaginary God is real?

          • Stephen M. Zumbo

            thanks for the follow up question but if you read my other post posts over the last 3 days you know I’ve already answered that question multiple times. Why do you keep insisting that God is imaginary? God is the one who insists that we believe in . God insists that we believe in him in the very first verse of the very first book of the Bible. He insists that you believe First to get the proof later.

            Genesis 1:1 in the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth. The rest of the Bible gives us the history of God creating and reaching out to his creation, loving us even though we reject him, and explaining how he will redeem us from the justice and judgment that must fall if we turn our backs on him. The rest of the Bible explains the blessings and curses that will occur depending on how we respond to God’s love.

            Thank you for the opportunity to say a little more.

          • glenbo

            If you cannot prove God is real, you have no say on LGBT issues.

          • Stephen M. Zumbo

            And you can’t prove God isn’t real with the lack of information you keep spreading around .

            1) The existence of the Jewish people from more than four thousand years when almost every Other Nation on the planet has tried to destroy the people that God calls the apple of his eye. God prophesied exactly that Israel would be taken out of their land, go into slavery for 400 years, and be abused again and again by the hate of the rest of the world. The Greek version of the Jewish Bible was concluded 200 years before the birth of Jesus, yet the life death and resurrection of Jesus are predicted in minoot detail in that Jewish Bible. Look for the booklet messiah in both Testaments by Fred meldau. He list every prophecy about Jesus with citations and their fulfillment. He also talks about the impossibility of even a few of these prophecies being fulfilled by sheer coincidence, including the ones that Jesus couldn’t control during his crucifixion and death and burial in the Tomb. Because those prophecies have come true in detail, I have no reason to doubt that the ones that haven’t come true about a second coming will be fulfilled.

            2) the origin of the Christian church from 12 disciples who didn’t believe for two-and-a-half to three years what Jesus was telling them what happened. Even after his death and Resurrection they still didn’t believe it, just like you. But 40 Days Later those men and women were utterly changed and they walked out into the streets and condemned the Jewish leadership for crucifying Jesus but explain that God had a purpose for it happening. They were told to stop talking about Jesus by the Jewish leadership and they said it’s for you to decide but we can’t but tell what we have seen and heard. Within weeks thousands of people believed that Jesus had risen from the dead and that he was the promised Messiah of God that the that the Jewish scriptures foretold. They were so convinced that they took slander, beatings, shipwrecks, for the rest of their lives, but none of them ever back down from what they claimed that they had seen Jesus crucified and 3 days later they had seen him alive for six weeks. 60 years later the Apostle John was still preaching that even though the Romans exiled him and slaughtered Untold thousands of Christians then and later because they refused to call the Emperor God. They were willing to be good citizens of prom but not at the expense of denying what they had experienced or learned from those who preached it. If the gospel writers and their friends were lying someone would have eventually cracked and given it up. And the church would have died then under the boots and swords of Rome. However, here we are two thousand years later and Christianity still exists. The Roman gods have disappeared or gone Underground along with a lot of other mystery religions that were around at the time. Yes there are people that missed use the Bible, yes there are people that claim to be Christians, but are not. As I’ve said elsewhere, Christians are not merely to love to make everybody happy in their personal choices period when personal choice goes against God’s creation and God’s moral law we have to say so. And in fact many Christians individually and collectively have spoken out against drugs and tobacco and alcohol. The misuse or overuse of those things is sinful. But again why do you care if it doesn’t matter and there is no outside truth or standard for right and wrong? Why are your assertions any more right than mine, if there is no God and there is no Eternal truth?

          • glenbo

            >>”And you can’t prove God isn’t real”<<
            There is no reason to believe the bible is true.
            The burden of proof is on the one making the claim God exists.
            If you cannot meet that burden, you hold an empty sack and you have NO say over the lives of others.

          • Stephen M. Zumbo

            Glenbo, I’ve given you multiple proofs if you’ve seen and read all that I posted in this comment wall over the last week. The two above are historical reasons to believe the Bible is true. 1) The continued existence of the Jews when everyone in the world four four Thousand Years has worked and wished to see them destroyed see them destroyed.

            2) The existence of the Christian Church coming out of a Jewish culture and yet begun by Jewish Believers in Jesus as Messiah. Jesus himself said, I will build my church and hell will not overcome it. Despite every effort men and demons who hate, and every form of hate and unbelief, the church continues and so do God’s people the Jews. Jesus and the scripture has every rate to comment on our world, since he created it. To the extent that I know what the Bible says about sex and morality, I do have a right to comment on it. Why should only one side of the argument have a right to comment on an issue, especially since you can’t do anything to prove it isn’t true except to attack God’s character and claim that your feelings about God and that your distaste for his actions prove that he doesn’t exist; have you read the Bible and ask God to open your mind and explain things that currently baffle you or anger you?

            I have given you proof and you refuse to accept it. Therefore, you are the one who has no say. Ultimately, if you reject what God and history have said about sex and morality, you cannot come up with a accurate answer on these issues. All you can give is your opinion, which is based on incomplete or inaccurate information.

            Psychiatrists and doctors who do the same thing have the same problem. If they don’t have a clear understanding of what God has said in history about what men and women actually are, their theories will be wrong or incorrect In some measure. If they are wrong, they’re leading people dangerously astray in our , and can only continue to do so, unless they change their View.

            The Founders and many of the citizens in our nation at its founding in throughout its history believed the God of the Bible exists and had a claim on their hearts and minds and their actions. They wrote and spoke about their dependence on God as they strove to create a new nation and its laws.

            Now you want to embrace an understanding of the hearts and minds and bodies of humans while leaving out what their Creator’s plan and purpose for them says about them. Without a Foundation of spiritual truth based on the God of the Bible, and guided by historical facts and Truth *along with* observed truth science and medicine alone will not come to healthy conclusions about the mind or the body. This has been my point the entire conversation.

          • glenbo

            >>”you can’t do anything to prove it isn’t true”<<
            The burden of proof is upon the one making the claim. That would be YOU.

            You have given me NO proof.
            You have failed.

          • glenbo

            If you cannot prove God actually exists, you have no say on authority on LGBT issues.

  • Ray S.

    Wonder what he’d have been today had he been barking and acting like a puppy dog at age 2. The parents are to blame in this.

    • glenbo

      >>”The parents are to blame in this.”<<
      The ignorance is strong with this one…

      • Ray S.

        glenbo it’s obvious you either have no children or ever plan to.

        • glenbo

          >>”glenbo it’s obvious you either have no children or ever plan to.”<<
          True. But I love my transgender niece and friend.
          I would never demonize them for something they have no control of.

          • Gary

            They have control of their behavior.

          • glenbo

            Their behavior is benign and none of your business.

          • Andrew Mason

            Actually its harmful to themselves. I’m pretty sure I recently read something about trans having far far higher suicide rates (30x the norm perhaps?) not to mention far higher lifestyle costs if they undergo radical cosmetic surgery.

          • Gary

            I don’t care how much they harm themselves. And, if they want to have surgery, let them pay for it themselves.

          • Andrew Mason

            I can appreciate your desire to fight against LGBTIQABCWhatever values, just don’t forget the whole love your neighbour as yourself thing. And don’t forget Walt Heyer – people can learn from their mistakes and come to know Christ.

          • Gary

            I’m not very good at loving perverts.

          • glenbo

            >>”Actually its harmful to themselves.”<<
            No it isn't.
            But since you cannot mind your own business, smoking is dangerous. Alcohol, fast food, sky diving are dangerous.
            You don't get to decide what others can do or how they can live their lives.
            Your phony "concern" for their safety is blatantly disingenuous.
            You just hate LGBT people and every post you make flies in stark contrast to your alleged "caring" bout their well-being.
            The high suicide is from social rejection from people like you.
            If you disagree, then their "suicidal", "depressed" and "harmful" condition proves that being trans in innate and not mutable and worthy of disability protections as outlined by the ADA. (Americans with Disabilities Act.)
            With your assertion that trans people are in danger due to innate depression and high rate of suicide…not because of societies hatred od them…you are advocating for protections for them.

          • Andrew Mason

            You posed an assertions – trans is benign, I responded. How is your advocacy not making it public business? As for smoking, alcohol, fast food or sky diving, the first two are restricted, and discouraged. I vaguely recall restrictions pertaining to fast food but forget the details. Sky diving is … uncommon, and obviously dangerous.

            Interesting you deem my concern phony, and that the reality is I hate LGBT people. Can you conceive of a person rejecting an LGBT lifestyle and yet not be motivated by hate? If not you might want to think through your logic to identify the flaw.

            I’m not aware of research denoting a link between social rejection and suicide. Countries which strongly favour LGBT demands still have high suicide rates suggesting social influences aren’t a major issue.

            As for your assertion that I’m advocating society needs to protect trans given their predilection for suicide and depression, does that extend to other groups? And does such protection mean trans are given mandatory psychological assistance, or that liberties are abolished to make them feel better? What of groups with alcohol problems, are they banned from drinking alcohol, or areas they’re the dominant group deemed dry areas? I suspect you’re only seeing what you want to see.

          • glenbo

            >>” How is your advocacy not making it public
            business?”<>” Interesting you deem my concern phony, and that
            the reality is I hate LGBT people. Can you conceive of a person rejecting an LGBT lifestyle and yet not be motivated by hate? If not you might want to think
            through your logic to identify the flaw.“<>” I’m not aware of research denoting a link between
            social rejection and suicide”<>” Countries which strongly favour LGBT demands still
            have high suicide rates suggesting social influences aren’t a major issue.”<>” does such protection mean trans are given
            mandatory psychological assistance”<>”or that liberties are abolished to make them feel
            better?”<<

            What “liberties” are “abolished?”

            Please explain what liberties are abolished by assisting
            flawed, depressed and suicidal children and adults.

          • Andrew Mason

            People like me? Ray S. questioned the boy’s parents response had he been acting trans-species, you raised the issue of harm. So not people like me, people namely you raised the subject.

            What rejection? I’ve said certain lifestyle choices are immoral and unhealthy. Does the fact that I’m referring to trans or homosexual rather obesity or binge drinking somehow miraculously change the value of my point?

            A claimed link is not the same as a proven link.

            Oh I actually agree on this point. The fact that America for instance has First Amendment protection for religion, and Saudi Arabia lacks it doesn’t guarantee that your American neighbour won’t hate you, and your Saudi neighbour love you because of your religion. Of course you’re probably safer with an American who hates you than a Saudi, at least for now. As I mentioned elsewhere, what of depression? Is that innate, or environmentally inducedtriggered? Seriously depressed people can be suicidal, but that doesn’t mean they are ‘innately depressed’.

            You actually think mandatory mental help for trans is a good idea? I’m genuinely surprised! I was under the impression that the APA leaned towards criminalising support, so figured you would too.

            Are=/=could be. Stripping parents of the right to care for their children if they have religious beliefs that don’t support a trans claim as per Ontario. Or what about restricting or mandating what schools teach about the subject. Curtailments on freedom of speech – criminalising and constraining constitutional rights etc.

            I’m not saying caring for people requires the abolition of rights and liberties, I’m merely noting that militants push the fiction that caring for people – demanding equality etc, mandates the curtailment or abolition of God-given rights.

          • glenbo

            >>” I’ve said certain lifestyle choices are immoral
            and unhealthy.”<>” caring for people – demanding equality etc, mandates
            the curtailment or abolition of God-given rights.”<<

            How so?

          • Stephen M. Zumbo

            “You don’t get to decide what others can do or how they can live their lives.”

            Exactly. We don’t get to decide. But God does get to decide. He’s told all mankind throughout history in the scriptures what to do and not to do and you keep covering your ears and insisting you don’t want to hear it. God will one day tell you you were wrong. And he will say that everyone who refuses to hear and obey now when they have the opportunity. And nowhere have I said that those who feel transgendered should be rejected or murdered. If that’s done that’s wrong and God will judge. But we do get to say to those folks that they are being lied to by the people in the movement and by the satanic system that wants them to do whatever they feel like doing to their own detriment. How do you know their depression isn’t caused by those two things? Their own minds wrestling with the logic of what they’re doing, prodded by demons , beings who do not have their best interest at heart, but only want to take as many people into hell as they possibly can to assuage their own misery and to try to shake their fists at God and His Word, and his right AZ Creator to decide what is right and wrong.

          • glenbo

            Your imaginary god doesn’t give anyone the authority to dictate how others can live their lives, who they can have sex with and marry.
            Therefore, there is no reason as to why they should not be allowed to do so.
            Until you demonstrate your god is real, using his dictates to control others is intrusive and illogical.

          • glenbo

            >>”Exactly. We don’t get to decide.”<<
            Good!
            Now keep your religion out of the government, and the government will stay out of your religion.

          • Gary

            I don’t care how much they harm themselves. But I object to their trying to legitimize their behavior and get people to support them. I don’t want a society that endorses lgbtq. And I am fighting against that.

          • glenbo

            >>” I don’t want a society that endorses lgbtq.”<<
            Why?
            What is accomplished by discriminating against them?

          • Gary

            There is such a thing as morality. You would have to deny morality in order to not discriminate against lgbtq.

          • Stephen M. Zumbo

            Demanding that their wrong understanding of their sexuality and the misuse of surgery and chemistry be allowed and codified as a civil rights issue is not benign. Because our society and our leadership has turned away from God standard we are now killing 4000 children a week buy abortion and people demand that abortion on demand not be overturned, that because of Roe versus Wade and Affiliated cases that it be a civil right. They’re calling evil good and good evil. I assume that you’re referring to your friends or relatives being benign in their behavior. That might be if they never interacted with anyone outside of your family, but eventually they will. Just as transgenders in the military or now demanding money be set aside for them to remain in the military and pay for conclusion of change of outer appearance and and the maintenance. Eventually, more and more people will shut their ears to what God has said and are already doing so, just to make themselves feel good in their error. As a fellow Citizen and as a Christian that sees my nation going in the wrong direction, it is my business. If this date I’m not sure if it will matter, but it will matter to God and it will matter to me. Otherwise I would just close this thread and never talk to you or anybody that has a different View. I’m sure you would prefer that, and it certainly would be easier for me. But our personal preferences don’t hold water against the standards of the creator in these moral issues, as I’ve been saying for days.

          • glenbo

            According to your bible, God murdered children, toddlers, infants and pregnant women.
            Please don’t presume that your imaginary god is a moral person.

          • Shaquille Harvey

            What no control ?

          • glenbo

            Yes. Control of their gender identity.
            It’s not a switch.
            Go to APA dot org/transgender.
            Please investigate what the ENTIRE medical community says about LGBT people before you take a knowledgeable and authoritative stance.

    • Andrew Mason

      Presumably they’d have concluded their son was trans-specist. Of course given the parents belong to a denomination that largely rejects the Bible it’s probably not that much of a surprise.

      • M Didaskalos

        There’s a lot of Bible bowdlerizing being done by the ELCA these days. The “case” made by the ELCA (quoted in the article) for the sin of homosexual sex is as touchy-feely flippant as it is heretical.

        It wasn’t always thus with the ELCA. Before the ELCA sold its soul to the world, the ELCA Council of Bishops proclaimed in 1993:”There is basis neither in Scripture nor tradition for the establishment of an official ceremony by this church for the blessing of a homosexual relationship. We, therefore, do not approve such a ceremony as an official action of this church’s ministry;”

  • timeout31

    This anti Bible and those who attend these where so much mockery of God’s Word takes place: BEWARE.

    Repent and run as fast as you can away from such death and destruction. Shameful!

  • Phil Harrison

    “A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man wear women’s clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this.” (Deuteronomy 22:5)

    “He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord.” (Deuteronomy 23:1)

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