Yes, Childhood Sexual Abuse Often Does Contribute to Homosexuality

By Michael Brown Published on February 23, 2017

What do Anderson Cooper, Don Lemon, George Takei and Milo Yiannopoulos have in common? They are all out and proud gay men, and they were all sexually abused as underage minors. Sadly, this is an extremely common occurrence, as there is frequently a connection between childhood sexual abuse and adult homosexuality.

To say such a thing, of course, is to invite a hailstorm of fierce criticism and ridicule: “You bigoted homophobe! These men were born gay, not made gay, and their sexuality is a gift from God, not the result of sexual abuse. Plus, there are plenty of gay men who were never abused and plenty of straight men who were abused as boys and never turned gay.”

Putting the name-calling aside, there is some truth to these statements.

Numbers Don’t Lie

Not all gay men were molested as boys (since there are multiple causes for homosexuality) and not all boys who are molested turn out gay (probably because they were less predisposed towards homosexuality). Still, it cannot be denied that a disproportionately high number of gay men were abused as boys, and that certainly contributed to their sexual and emotional development.

That’s why it was no surprise when Dr. Robert Epstein, the pro-gay editor-in-chief of Psychology Today, noted that gay readers who were upset with an ad that ran in his publication in 2002 sent him letters asserting “that gays have a right to be rude or abusive because they themselves have been abused” (this obviously included being sexually abused).

And that’s why it was no surprise when a 2009 report prepared for a bisexual health summit revealed that 74 percent of bisexuals had been sexually abused as children. (For other studies focusing specifically on the connection between childhood sexual abuse and homosexuality, see here.)

The environment in which we are raised has a profound effect on our ongoing mental and emotional and social development.

As for the notion that people are born gay, not only would that suggest that infants can relate to the concepts of sexual and romantic attraction (which they obviously cannot), but it would also ignore the fact that our upbringing and environment have profound effects on us. Why deny such an obvious reality?

It is well-known that the children of alcoholics have a much higher chance of becoming alcoholics than the general population, and this cannot be blamed on genetics alone. As stated by the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism, “Genes are not the only things children inherit from their parents. How parents act and how they treat each other and their children has an influence on children growing up in the family. These aspects of family life also affect the risk for alcoholism.”

In the same way, it is well-known that men who were abused as children are much more likely than the average population to abuse other children as adults. As summarized in a 2001 article in the British Journal of Psychology:

Among 747 males the risk of being a perpetrator was positively correlated with reported sexual abuse victim experiences … A high percentage of male subjects abused in childhood by a female relative became perpetrators. Having been a victim was a strong predictor of becoming a perpetrator, as was an index of parental loss in childhood.

But again, none of this should surprise us in the least, since the environment in which we are raised, especially if coupled with major, traumatic childhood experiences, has a profound effect on our ongoing mental and emotional and social development.

Society Ignores the Childhood Trauma of Many Gay Adults

Yet when it comes to homosexuality, it is taboo to connect childhood sexual abuse with subsequent gay identity since: 1) this would contradict the “born gay” myth; and 2) it would underscore the fact that homosexual attractions are not natural and positive.

“Every single gay person I know has some sort of drama going on, back in childhood. Something was happening that we’re not allowed to ask about anymore.”

As explained candidly by the lesbian feminist and academic Camille Paglia, “Every single gay person I know has some sort of drama going on, back in childhood. Something was happening that we’re not allowed to ask about anymore.” (She was speaking of bad relationships with parents as well as sexual abuse or other factors.)

In keeping with this, all the professional counselors I have spoken with (including trained pastors and psychologists or psychiatrists) have told me that the vast number of gays they have counseled were sexually abused as minors (some told me this was the case in every instance they encountered).

You might say, “But gays hardly have a monopoly on this. What about the problem of heterosexual schoolteachers having sex with their students, especially female teachers with male students?”

But you miss the point, since: 1) we all agree that this is terrible and abusive; and 2) most of us would agree that such relationships have the real potential of negatively affecting that child’s sexual and emotional development. Yet when it comes to gay men who were molested as boys, we’re told this did not contribute to their (homo)sexual development. More disturbingly, in gay circles, such relationships are often looked at as positive and nurturing, since, it is surmised, the boy was already aware of his same-sex attraction and the older man served as a mentor of sorts.

In Their Own Words

In the words of Harry Hay, the gay icon and founder of the American gay movement:

If the parents and friends of gays are truly friends of gays, they would know from their gay kids that the relationship with an older man is precisely what thirteen-, fourteen-, and fifteen-year-old kids need more than anything else in the world.

You can be assured that such relationships would often become sexual, thereby providing the entry point into the larger homosexual “lifestyle.” (For other quotes from Hay, see here.)

Similarly, the renowned gay activist Larry Kramer opined,

In those cases where children do have sex with their homosexual elders … I submit that often, very often, the child desires the activity, and perhaps even solicits it, either because of a natural curiosity … or because he or she is homosexual and innately knows it. … And unlike girls or women forced into rape or traumatized, most gay men have warm memories of their earliest and early sexual encounters; when we share these stories with each other, they are invariably positive ones.

That’s why “man-boy love” has been celebrated in homosexual culture through the centuries, that’s why there’s a page listing “Historical pederastic couples” on a gay Wikipedia site, and that’s why George Takei could speak glowingly of his first sexual encounter at the age of 13 (with a 19-year-old male camp counselor), at a time when he admits he didn’t know he was gay.

In this light, the outrageous statement by philosopher Michael Foucalt, arguing for lowering the age of consent, doesn’t sound as outrageous: “It is quite difficult to lay down barriers [particularly since] it could be that the child, with his own sexuality, may have desired the adult.”

Ah yes, it was the child asking for it again. This too is sickening beyond words.

The reality is that children, especially pre-teens and young teens, are tremendously impressionable and malleable, as confirmed by this account shared by a Christian family activist (reflecting on his pre-Christian youth):

When I was about 14 or 15, I spent an afternoon smoking pot with a ‘gay’ guy in his 20’s who explained that young people during puberty have a very fluid sexual identity and how easy it had been for him to turn young teen boys into sex partners … A confirming study I later saw said 25% of young teens suffer same-sex confusion but most grow out of it naturally by the end of adolescence.

Ex-gay Robert Lopez, raised by his mother and her lesbian partner, had this to say:

In a society soaked in porn where sexual orientation is discussed openly in front of small children, there will certainly be 12- and 13-year-olds who think they want sex and think they are ready for it. When we discuss ‘gay identity’ with 6th graders, which is very common, what are we discussing? We are talking about sexual acts. Perhaps people need to stand up and resist the Human Rights Campaign’s recent push to force such curricula on elementary and middle schools.

It is truly distasteful to speak of such things, but speak about them we must, given the ever-increasing scope of gay activism, especially in our children’s schools. And with the terribly painful issue of childhood sexual abuse coming to the fore in recent days, let’s use this as a teachable moment.

We can do this by: 1) being on the lookout for signs that our own children may have been abused; 2) refusing to allow our kids to be experimental pawns in the culture wars, because of which we strongly oppose sex-based LGBT curricula in the schools; and 3) no longer denying the common connection between childhood sexual abuse and adult homosexuality, thereby providing a path for healing and wholeness.

By doing these things, we will not only make this a teachable moment, we will make it a redemptive one.

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  • Autrey Windle

    Dr. Brown, I kind of adore you but you may be missing something. Numbers may not lie, but people do and numbers rely on true reporting for accuracy. I doubt you have ever been sexually abused. I certainly hope you never have been. I don’t want to burst any bubbles or maybe I do, but from someone who has been very inside all these issues and been very inside these alphabetical splinter groups of Americans, I can tell you I never met an actual homosexual who had no abusive past from their childhood. I did meet many (most) who would never tell those truths to anyone outside the community or any psychology or ministerial professionals. I would give anything to bring these confused people to the healing hands of Jesus and the pure love of The Father, but so far, that does not seem to be one of my gifts of communication. I do know that excluding the possibility that abuse is the root of perversion is to allow wiggle room for the victimized to think that maybe they are the ‘normal’ God-created homosexuals. God created men and women. Not gays and straights and certainly not one sex inside a different sex’s body. God does not make mistakes. To allow supposition that God does is the work of the liar to claim God’s children for his own minions of lying, destruction and death.

    • eddiestardust

      Ms Windle, YOU have your own axe to grind and I wonder what that is?

      • Autrey Windle

        maybe I’m just a horrible protestant making things up as you have said before…

      • Durandel Almiras

        eddiestardust, it sounds like YOU only have one liners to provide. Instead of suppositions of another’s psychological motives, give a counter argument instead.

    • Tim A

      I was never abused, sexually or otherwise, as a child. Yet the attractions to other boys still happened. I grew up in a conservative church… I was told it was wrong. I never acted on my attractions. I was pretty lonely during my teen years as I would not, based on my churches teaching, act on my own natural attractions. I spent most nights crying out to God to change me… to make those attractions go away. I attempted suicide twice because God was not answering my prayers in this matter. In my 20s I finally decided to do something about it, and went to a church based reparative therapy endorsed by Exodus. It nearly killed me. The torture I received from these “christians” was so damaging that I ended up burying the internal scars for nearly 20 years. They finally reserviced about 6 years ago, and I found that I finally had to deal with the damage that therapy had actually done in my life. I am a gay man. God created me as a gay man. I praise HIS name that He decided my life was so special to receive this gift from Him. I am happier and healthier after turning to Jesus as a gay man than I ever was pretending to be straight. God help Michael Brown and others like him see the damage they continue to do to people who truly need help. They continue to push people away from God’s grace with their rhetoric.

      • Patmos

        “God created me as a gay man.”

        He did not create you that way. If so, he would not have called homosexuality an abomination.

        Continue on in God’s word, and you will know the truth and the truth will set you free. The name of Jesus is the name above all names, and you have the authority to use it (Luke 10:17-20).

        • Tim A

          Oh you poor unfortunate soul. Do you even understand what all those “abominations” in the Bible really are? Apparently not. The Hebrew word in those 2 Leviticus verses that has been translated in modern Bibles to “abomination” really means “taboo”. It does NOT mean “sin”. The exact same Hebrew word is used several times in Genesis, and also translated as “abomination”, but NONE of those mean “sin”. You can tell by the context of the passages in Genesis that the word is used. In each Genesis case the Hebrew word means something that is culturally unacceptable for a group of people, that is perfectly acceptable for another group. YOU may not understand why someone may do something… It MAY be a “taboo” for you… but that does not make it either wrong or sinful. I suggest you actually study your Bible before using words you do not understand.

          • Patmos

            If there was nothing wrong with it, God would not have called for those people to be put to death (Leviticus 20:13).

            Greater question here, why do you ignore the teachings of Jesus and the believer’s authority? Why do you try to use God’s word to justify yourself, when that’s not what it’s for?

            The gospel of Jesus Christ is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth (Romans 1:16). What is it you think Paul is talking about here? What is it believers are being saved from?

            If God’s grace meant license to do whatever you want, there would be no need for him to extend that grace in the first place.

            Continue on in God’s word, and you will know the truth and the truth will set you free.

          • Mike Painter

            “Anyone who injures their neighbor is to be injured in the same manner: fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth.” – “God” (Leviticus 24:19-20)

            “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person.” – Jesus aka God (Matthew 5:38-39).

            The man you claim to worship evidently thought it was fine to toss out scripture that hurt people. There’s a lot from Leviticus and the Old Testament Jesus openly defied. And while you were busying hating Tim for no rational reason, you didn’t even acknowledge that he was tortured and haunted by “ex-gay therapy.” “Christians” like you tortured and abused Tim when he was young, not gay men.

          • Patmos

            Jesus did not defy the Torah, it’s why he said that not one bit of it would pass away until everything is accomplished (Matthew 5:18). His teachings merely expanded on the law and explained it. It’s why he said to not only not murder, but not to hate. The only thing Jesus defied was what the Pharisees added through their own customs.

            As far as hating Tim, I did no such thing. Regarding his abuse, I’ll say it again: Continue on in God’s word and you will know the truth and the truth will set you free.

          • Tim A

            The truth HAS set me free… as a gay man.

            BTW — you DO know that Leviticus was written for Hebrew priests (from the tribe of Levi), and not the entire Hebrew population, right?

          • Patmos

            “Leviticus was written for Hebrew priests (from the tribe of Levi), and not the entire Hebrew population”

            That’s just simply not true. I can’t really take you seriously anymore when you’re so far off.

            Look, if you’re concerned about condemnation, Christ does not condemn. So why even focus on that aspect? Why not pursue what God has for you, if you truly believe? Nowhere in The New Testament does it say God has given believers a spirit of lust, but it does say that we have authority over every deceitful spirit (Ephesians 1:21 and 2:6).

            Continue on in his word, for God’s word is quick and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword! Come to the light, so that your deeds may be manifest that they are wrought in God. You’re close, I can tell you that much. God has not turned his back on you.

          • Tim A

            I AM pursuing what God has for me. YOU just don’t want to believe it. YOU don’t want to believe that a gay man could be of God. YOU want to believe that homosexuality it all about lust. That tells me you do not know very many homosexuals… and I mean really know them on a personal level. YOU want to believe what Michael Brown says about homosexuals, when it is simply NOT true.

          • Gary

            Jesus Christ doesn’t like you. And He’s going to prove that forever.

          • Tim A

            Gary, Jesus told you this personally? That He doesn’t like me? Because I get an entirely different message when I pray.

          • Gary

            I found out by reading the Bible that God does not like queers. And the God of the Bible is not going to tell you something different. You must be getting messages from some other god.

          • Tim A

            Really, Gary? Because the Bible I read says God LOVES everyone:

            John 3:16-18 (NIV): 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

            Why do you hold disdain for that which God says He loves??

          • Gary

            God loves everyone in Hell. But they are still in Hell.

          • Tim A

            God Bless you, Gary. You have so much misinformation in your head, and it comes out through your heart. May God open your heart to love those who for you hold such disdain, and learn from them.

          • Kevin Quillen

            do not forget that “believers” were told, “depart from me, I never knew you”. Believing is not enough. One must obey. Be careful. New Testament clearly says queer behavior is sin. Romans 1 and 1Cor 6

          • Tim A

            Romans 1:26 starts with “Because of this…” or something similar depending on the Bible you are reading… Because of what? What follows — the stuff people like you like to quote to gay people — is dependent on what happened before… so, what happens before verse 26??

          • Kevin Quillen

            Romans 1:22 “professing to be wise, they became fools”. You have worked very hard to justify your sin. I will pray for you to have the strength to resist and repent.

            I am done.

          • Tim A

            Kevin — Romans 1:23 ” and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.”

            They were worshiping idols.

            But, please, let’s not stop there. Let’s take it into Romans 2:1 “You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.”

          • george

            Again, people are same sex attracted/gay since their birth. There is no difference born in christian homes or out. Yes people are born gay. Many heterosexual people were abused as kids, but they have never become gays. No person in this world would desire to be in sexual minority, especially brought up in conservative churches, being involved in ministry …
            Romans one is not the ultimate source of truth about people being gays. There are Manny idol worshippers, ex Christians and atheists, who left bible, who changed living God to other gods, but they never became gays.
            Even though I was never involved in any homosexual sex and I was never sexually abused as a child, I am still same sex attracted. No prayers and fast helps. And here I am telling you of my life of almost 4 decades.
            Nobody chooses to be gay, bisexual, or samesexattracted.
            If Roland’s letter was true then. Most of the population of the world would of been lgbt.
            Read it well and you will see it.

          • Tim A

            1Cor 6:9 has two words that, when translated into English, have been understood to be directed against homosexuality. The Greek words, malakoi(s) and arsenokoitay, are problematic for different reasons, however.

            malakos – is an adjective.
            malakois appears in Matt 11:8 and Luke 7:25 and is the neuter/plural form of malakos. Malakoi appears in 1Cor 6:9 and is the masculine/plural form of malakos. That is the full extent of the appearance of the malakos adjective in the NT.

            Malakos appears in ancient Greek texts and is understood to mean, variously, freshly plowed (when talking about land), luxurious (when talking about clothing), and is also used to mean temple idol slaves or servants (Homer and others).

            The Latin Vulgate Bible, from the 5th century, translated malakois (Matt 11:8 and Luke 7:25) into mollibus, which means “luxurious” or “effeminate”. It translated malakoi (1Cor 6:9) into idolis servientes, which means idol slaves or servants.

            The King James version (1611), which relied heavily on the Vulgate, translated malakois to “soft” in Matt and Luke, as it was referring to clothing. But in 1Cor, evidently not being happy with “idol servants”, they translated malakoi into “effeminate”. It seems to many scholars that the Latin translators were closer in time and culture than the English translators, so they would have a better idea of meaning. None-the-less, the KJV translation has, of course, stuck ever since.

          • Tim A

            As far as arsenokoitay is concerned, it appears twice in Scripture and not at all in classic Greek literature. It is a compound word, not uncommon in Greek. 1Cor 6:9 uses arsenokoitay and 1Tim 1:10 uses arsenokoitais. The words combined to make the first word are arsen (adjective neuter/singular), o (masculine definite article) and koitay (noun feminine/singular). The second word is the same, except that koitais is feminine/plural.

            Now, the first thing is that the Greek language is gender specific. These words have feminine endings which means they refer to something female. The word parts are varied, however. arsen means “male”. o is the male definite article (the). koitey, the root of koitay and koitais, means “bed” or “place where koitus (coitus) occurs” — can we presume “female’s bed”, since it is feminine?

            What is being communicated here? Nobody is really sure. The KJV opted for “the abusers of themselves with mankind”. The NIV went with “homosexual offenders”. The NRSV went with “sodomites”.

            The notion of “men in a bed together” is not literal at all, but shows the same bias as KJV, by assuming a lot of things that the Greek, or Latin, does not say.

            But the Vulgate, translated 1000 years earlier, and closer to the original culture, than the KJV translated to adulteri, which means “adulterer” but in the female tense. You could argue that this doubles up on the earlier use of adulterer appearing in the same verse, but that one is male tense.

          • Kevin Quillen

            Romans 1:26-27 and 1 Cor 6:9-11. Notice verse 11, “were some of
            you”! They can be changed, therefore proof of “NOT BORN” that way.
            Let Jesus set you free. Face the truth.

          • Tim A

            Romans 1:26 starts with “Because of this…” Because of what? What happens BEFORE this verse is key to what is being said AFTER this statement.

            1Cor 6:9 has two words that, when translated into English, have been
            understood to be directed against homosexuality. The Greek the words,
            malakoi(s) and arsenokoitay, are problematic for different reasons, however.

            malakos – is an adjective.

            malakois appears in Matt 11:8 and Luke 7:25 and is the neuter/plural form of
            malakos. malakoi appears in 1Cor 6:9 and is the masculine/plural form of
            malakos. This is the full extent of the appearance of the malakos adjective in
            the New Testament.

            It appears in ancient Greek texts and is understood to mean, variously, freshly
            plowed (when talking about land), luxurious (when talking about clothing) and
            is also used to mean temple idol slaves or servants (Homer and others).

            The Latin Vulgate Bible, from the 5th century translated malakois (Matt 11:8
            and Luke 7:25) into mollibus, which means “luxurious” or
            “effeminate”. It translated malakoi (1Cor 6:9) into idolis
            servientes, which means idol slaves or servants.

            The King James version (1611), which relied heavily on the Vulgate, translated
            malakois to “soft” in Matt and Luke, as it was referring to clothing.
            But in 1Cor, evidently not being happy with “idol servants” they
            translated malakoi into “effeminate”. It seems to many scholars that
            the Latin translators were closer in time and culture than the English
            translators, so they would have a better idea of meaning. None-the-less, the
            KJV translation has, of course, stuck ever since.

            As far as arsenokoitay is concerned it appears twice in scripture and not at
            all in classic Greek literature. It is a compound word, not uncommon in Greek.
            1 Cor 6:9 uses arsenokoitay and 1Tim 1:10 uses arsenokoitais. The words
            combined to make the first word are arsen (adjective neuter/singular), o
            (masculine definite article) and koitay (noun feminine/singular). The second
            word is the same, except that koitais is feminine/plural.

            Now, the first thing is that the Greek language is gender specific. These words
            have feminine endings which means they refers to something female. The word
            parts are varied, however. arsen means “male”. o is the male definite article
            (the). koitey, the root of koitay and koitais, means “bed” or “place where
            koitus (coitus) occurs” – can we presume “female’s bed”, since
            it is feminine?

            What was being communicated here? No-one is really sure. The KJV opted for “the
            abusers of themselves with mankind”. The NIV went with “homosexual offenders”.
            The NRSV went with “sodomites”.

            The notion of “men in a bed together” is not literal at all, but
            shows the same bias as KJV, by assuming a lot of things that the Greek, or Latin,
            doesn’t say.

            But the Vulgate, translated 1000 years earlier, and closer to the original
            culture, than the KJV translated to adulteri, which means “adulterer” but in
            the female tense. You could argue that this doubles up on the earlier use of
            adulterer appearing in the same verse, but that one is male tense.

            So which meaning do you want to use? It seems you have quite the range of
            choices, and biblical scholars can’t agree.

          • Mike Painter

            “His teachings merely expanded upon the law.” Are you kidding? “You have heard it said, ‘An eye for an eye,’ but I say love your enemies…” is a rejection of “An eye for an eye,” not an expansion, not an explanation. Jesus rejected the dietary laws (“Nothing that goes in a man can make him unclean”), The Sabbath-keeping law (“The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath”), and the law about stoning adulteresses (“Let he who is without sin cast the first stone”). None of these are Pharisee additions. These are laws that were always in the Torah…that Jesus rejected.

            Regarding Tim’s abuse (and the abuse of all gay people), it is the fault of people like you. Save me the “Continue in God’s word” talk and tell me whether you condemn or condone “ex-gay therapy” that clearly has been shattering people’s self-esteems, ruining their lives, driving them to suicide, and not doing a thing to change someone’s sexual orientation. Sexual orientation has nothing to do with one’s morals, is not a choice, is not the product of sexual abuse, and cannot be changed. No one chooses to be gay, no one can “stop” being gay. These are realities you’ll have to deal with. I know it challenges your beliefs, I know it makes your views of gay people unjustified. But in the end, are religion and tradition really more important than compassion? If you say yes, you are a Pharisee.

          • Kevin Quillen

            I think better to use new testament verses. Romans 1:26-27 and 1 Cor 6:9-11. Notice verse 11, “were some of you”! They can be changed, therefore proof of “NOT BORN” that way.
            Peace Brother.

          • krinks

            See the logical fallacy called Argument From Ignorance. There in you’ll see the fallacy of the Homosexuality is not a sin argument.

          • Gary

            God has damned you. Nothing you can do about it, and God won’t do anything to fix it.

          • Kevin Quillen

            Lev 18:22 “abomination” here is Strong’s #8441 (Strong’s Concordance)
            meaning; something disgusting, an abhorrence.
            Sounds about right.

          • Tim A

            The Hebrew word in these passages is “to’evah”.

            to’evah, by itself, indicates something
            unacceptable to local custom. Genesis 43:32 has a curious observation about the
            meal that Joseph ordered to be prepared for his brothers during their second
            visit. Joseph, still masquerading as an Egyptian — he recognizes his brothers,
            but they don’t yet know who he is — has a meal prepared for his guests. But
            Joseph eats alone, not with his brothers, because for Egyptians to dine with
            Hebrews is “a to’evah for the Egyptians.” Another Egyptian to’evah,
            according to Genesis 46:34, are shepherds. Joseph coaches his family to tell
            Pharoah that they are shepherds so that they can settle in Goshen, “because
            every shepherd is an Egyptian to’evah.” After the 4th plague, as part of the
            negotiations between Moses and Pharaoh, Pharaoh agrees to let the Hebrews
            sacrifice to their God within the land. But Moses counters that it’s a bad
            idea, because (Exodus 8:22, also numbered 8:26) what the Hebrews sacrifice is a
            to’evah of the Egyptians, and if the Egyptians see the Hebrews offering such a
            sacrifice, the Hebrews will be stoned to death. According to these texts, a
            to’evah is culturally determined. Something can be a to’evah in one culture but
            not in another. So the Hebrew sacrifices are a to’evah for the Egyptians, but,
            obviously, hugely encouraged in Hebrew society; shepherding is similar. And it
            was only in Egyptian culture that Egyptians couldn’t dine with Hebrews. Another
            way to look at it is this: The Hebrew to’evah seems to a statement about how
            people perceive something, not about the thing that is perceived. There’s
            nothing wrong with shepherds, for example, but the Egyptians see them
            peculiarly. Apparently this is what “abomination” is supposed to mean in
            English too.

      • krinks

        Drivel. God didn’t create you with tendencies towards that which he calls an abomination with a judgment due in this life. I suspect this is your way of lying about the issue.

    • NG

      The point you are making is exactly the one Dr, brown was raising in his article.
      It is indeed naive to assume that abuse has no influence on one’s identity..

  • Paul

    In California the homosexual activists have managed to get a law banning therapy for kids that challenges their homosexual feelings. Also any speech negative to homosexuality is banned in schools. And yet the same folks celebrate homosexual child rape. See a pattern here?

  • Kathy Verbiest Baldock

    You sure are a piece of works Brown.

    From my book, with CITED research:
    “While there is no consensus as to the root cause of sexual orientation, it is agreed by all medical and health care professional that orientation is not related to a child’s postnatal social environment. In other words, there is nothing to indicate the parenting or early childhood events, such as abuse, affect either gender or sexual orientation.
    Feeling like outsiders an sensing that they should not talk about the differences there are experiencing often makes this children more vulnerable to abusers. While there is a higher correlation between homosexual orientation and becoming a victim of sexual abuse, the abuse does not cause homosexual orientation; rather, there orientation makes a child more susceptible to the abuse. The scenario is frequently twisted backwards to say that childhood abuse leads to homosexuality. This is patently false. The fact is that shamed children are easy and vulnerable targets for abusers.”

    But heck, who wants research? YOU are part of the continuing problem of shaming in the church and therefore, part of the continuing cycle of abuse.

    • BPS

      “Numbers may not lie, but people do and numbers rely on true reporting for accuracy.”
      From Autrey Windle, below who commented 1 hour ago.

    • eddiestardust

      Sounds like YOU have your own axe to grind, Ms Baldock…

      • Kathy Verbiest Baldock

        Yeah, I don’t like lies.

        • DCM7

          Translation: “I don’t like truth that doesn’t fit my narrative.”

        • BXVI

          The so-called “research” in this field (and many others) is highly politicized. Most of it is generated in left-wing, progressive academic echo-chambers that reward conclusions that are perceived to be pro-LGBT and ruthlessly punish the opposite conclusions. Very few people would dare to reach the wrong conclusions lest their careers come to a screeching halt. On the other hand, a study that reaches the “right” conclusions will be praised and handsomely rewarded. Those who want to play that game know how. Those who don’t move on to a different career. So no, I don’t place much, if any, weight on the so-called “research” that you cite.

        • Paul

          The lie is pretending two dudes having sex is normal. Doesn’t take much to figure that out.

    • gdod25

      Yours is a pseudoscience in which what cannot be cured is normalized. Nice to plug your book eh?

      • Kathy Verbiest Baldock

        I have done the work and the research and it happens to be in my book. I’m not ashamed of that.

    • m-nj

      i think Scott Cone’s reply above is an apt retort to your progressive liberal thinking… even IF some are born with a predisposition towards homosexuality, the ultimate reason they have these unnatural attractions is that we ALL are born sinners. the issue is whether we ACT on our sinful predispositions or repent from them, which only happens through the power of God in changing our inborn sinful nature.

      • Brad Will

        We are not born sinners. Sin is an act of the will, not a genetic malady passed from parent to offspring. Your false doctrine of Original Sin only bolsters the claim of sodomites that they are born that way.

        Homosexuality is a sin.
        People are born sinners.
        Therefore, people can be born homosexual.

        Get your head out of Reformed books and see how vacuous their claims of this Augustinian doctrine really is. Sin cannot be something you are born “with”, as it is not a stuff. God makes each of us. We are His offspring.

        • Dorrie

          Ever since Adam, we WERE born sinners. That’s scriptural. And unless or until we recognize it and ask Yeshua/Jesus into our heart & live, we’re LOST.

    • BXVI

      A significant percentage of gay men like man-boy sex; they would prefer a boy to another man. You should read the stuff the write, or listen to them tell their stories of fantasies about sex with teen or even pre-teen boys. The percentage of gay men who engage in or fantasize about this stuff is significantly higher than the percentage of straight men who want sex with underage girls. Such abuse of minors is part-and-parcel of the whole gay “thing” for many gay men.

    • DCM7

      “it is agreed by all medical and health care professional that orientation is not related to a child’s postnatal social environment. In other words, there is nothing to indicate the parenting or early childhood events, such as abuse, affect either gender or sexual orientation.”

      Whatever cited research you may claim to have, there is too much knowledge outside your world that puts the lie to your claims. For a start, many of us know the background behind positions on homosexuality such as the APA’s (basically 100% political pressure, 0% evidence). Thus, citing such positions (in a nice little “appeal to authority” fallacy) is a pathetic joke.

    • Patmos

      Kathy Verbiest Baldock is quite simply not a believer in God and his son Jesus Christ. Why else would she put the works of men above the word of God? I wonder if she’ll ever realize what she is doing before it’s too late.

    • dchap

      Kathy, actually Dr. Brown provided scientific documentation to back all his claims in the article linked in this sentence in his article: (For other studies focusing specifically on the connection between childhood sexual abuse and homosexuality, see here.)

    • Kevin Quillen

      the studies of identical twins provide the answer to the “born that way” question. “Identical twins” One queer and one not. It is not genetic, it is environmental.

      • Dorrie

        AMEN!

      • Tim A

        How can it be environmental if they are raised in the same environment? AND “Identical twins” are not fully identical. They have different finger prints, and foot prints… and most parents of identical twins will tell you that they have different personalities… right from birth.

        • Dant e

          Just because they`re raised in a similar environment doesn`t mean they have the same experiences.

          • Tim A

            Unless they were separated at birth, and adopted by different set of parents, most identical twins are raised not in similar environments, but the exact same environment at the exact same time.

          • Dant e

            Not necessarily, they may have very different experiences with their families and others.

    • Royce E. Van Blaricome

      “it is agreed by all medical and health care professional that orientation is not related to a child’s postnatal social environment.”

      Well, that’s just a verifiably proven outright lie. So much for your book. Ah but we all know what you’re response will be. That by “all” you mean all those who are “credible” according to YOU because they agree with your fallacious POV.

      There is NO such thing as a “sexual orientation” toward anything other than the “orientation” God gives all people. The truth is Same-Sex Attraction (SSA) is NOT the same as “sexual orientation”. Just another lie to perpetuate your Liberal agenda.

      But hey, thanks for publicly displaying that you and UC Davis think one putting their opinions into a published book and giving it a fancy name somehow makes that “facts”.

      Of course, you won’t be intellectually honest enough to admit that.

    • GLT

      ” it is agreed by all medical and health care professional that orientation is not related to a child’s postnatal social environment.”

      That, Ma’am, is a outright, blatant lie and you know it. There is no where near 100% agreement on the role social orientation plays in relation to development of sexual identity. By making such a statement you clearly demonstrate the depth of your intellectual dishonesty. Really, you should be completely ashamed to call yourself an objective researcher. Truly pitiful!

    • Misti Green

      I am not a researcher or doctor. Just a common regular mom. Everyone I’ve known in that lifestyle hurt others, abused, had been abused, died young of disease, or completely tore their families apart. So far just being a regular mom I’ve never seen that as a healthy lifestyle for anyone. The children in those homes are confused. The children left behind from homes that have broken off the marriage due to that lifestyle are so hurt and confused. My sweet friend had a gay neighbor who was absolutely crazy and disrupted the entire neighborhood. He started things with every neighbor in that neighborhood. The Christians tried to reach out and love on him but he continued to always make threats. He was lonely, depressed and he knew he had a lot of problems and confusion.
      I wish so badly that other regular people that no one cares to hear from would share what they really see in that lifestyle.
      When I worked in cosmetics I knew this young teen that was involved with an older young male. The older male would buy a ton of products for him. Anything the boy wanted. The young man could not even look me in the face. He was so sad and ashamed that for sex acts he lived to make his way and have nice things bought for him. They were regular customers and again I don’t know anything because I am a regular person to those who are activist for the gay community but I’m telling you I could go on with several more stories that would blow your mind and cause one to rethink pushing and teaching this lifestyle.
      Very sad and leads to slot of distruction.
      By the way to the writer of this article all of my mom friends find this to be one of the best articles on this subject we’ve ever read in a long time.
      Thank you for the honesty.

    • Dorrie

      I’ve put your name on my prayer chain, Kathy. You seem very angry and bitter. We are 50 people who pray for each name on the list every day for 50 days.

      You’ve clearly bought into a lie and it’s TRAGIC!

      • Kathy Verbiest Baldock

        My, my. I think you for the prayer. I am now 61 and have not had ANYONE who knows me EVER say they find me “angry and bitter.” In fact, most people say I am amongst the most joy filled people they know.

        I am educated, passionate and do speak up.

        You are wrong on your beliefs about the process in which homosexuality was taken out of the DSM. Again, I did research with original sources, not rehashing of convenient narratives.

        If you go to my blog, I am EASY to find, and search the name Kenneth Lewes, you will have a recap of the longer version which I present in a full chapter of my book.

        Your information is severely flawed, but, since it likely works for you and your worldview, I would not expect you to challenge it.

    • Elizabeth Woodard Weaver

      Suggest you read the book, “Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth” for plenty of CITED evidence that there is a strong correlation between sexual abuse and subsequent identity as a homosexual.

      • Kathy Verbiest Baldock

        I have. It is on my bookshelf with other Satinover books. I read on both sides of the discussion to come to conclusions and in order to write my own 450+ page book (with almost 500 footnotes).

      • Kathy Verbiest Baldock

        I have and it is on my bookshelf.

  • As I understand God’s revelation in the Scriptures, particularly Romans 1-3, we are all born into a state of sin. We are not sinners because we sin; rather we sin because our very natures have been corrupted by the fall and we are sinners. And, it’s not just that we have a bent to do wrong. We love our darkness and do not come to the light on our own. We suppress the knowledge of God we do have and we have an aversion of loving and honoring God. This fundamental doctrine of radical depravity instructs us that sin permeates and infects every area of our being, including our sexuality. So, in this sense, I do believe people can be born “gay” in that they are born sinners and homosexual desires and the eventual activity these lead to are just one of many ways that our sinful rebellion against God expresses itself. This in no way excuses us from the sinful activities we engage in because we know better. God’s moral code is written on our hearts. Yet, the banding together to celebrate that which God hates is common to sinful people and societies.

  • BXVI

    It is incontrovertible that a significant percentage of gay men like to have sex with underage boys. There is an entire language in the gay culture for this. Call them “chickens” or whatever. The man-boy thing is a real thing among gays.Typically, they prey on boys who are gay and who are thrilled by the experience of affection from an older man who finds them attractive. Most boys who are not gay would naturally be revolted by it the advances of a man, and would resist. Man-boy sex is imbedded in the homosexual “thing” – pederasty has been around forever.

    • Elie Challita

      It’s also very common for straight men to lust after teenaged girls, hence the huge prevalence of ‘barely legal’ as a porn category. I don’t recall similar outrage being directed at those guys from your community?

      • Wise Guy

        I’m outraged!

        Does that help?

        It’s all sin. And God calls us all to repent of all of it and to return to Him with all our hearts.

  • Fishcicle

    Seems to me we should be able to agree that no one older should be pushing teens to have sex, no matter of what orientation. One difficulty, I think, is that the teenage years are generally when sexual desires are very strong. In other words, a time when teens can easily make bad decisions about sex, as well as allowing themselves to be manipulated or forced into having sex. Not good for anybody, I think, generally. From my point of view, it doesn’t matter whether sexual abuse causes homosexuality or not, it shouldn’t happen to anyone of any orientation. How to stop it is another question.

  • DCM7

    Someone I knew back in the ’70s confessed to a relative of mine that he had been sexually abused by an older man, and that got him started in his “gay” lifestyle. Many years later I looked for info on him and he seemed to be fairly well known in the “gay” community. As such, he must have made the standard claim of being “born that way,” knowing it wasn’t true.

    BTW, he died in his early 40s as a direct result of his lifestyle.

    • Wise Guy

      That’s a sad story. I saw a photo of about 20 gay men all approximately in their 20’s taken in the early 1980’s. It was 1997 or 1998 when I saw it. And every man in that picture had died from AIDS related complications by the time I saw it. That was a wakeup call to the dangers of male homosexual sex for me. I always saw it as a strange thing up to that point, but this made the dangers of it apparent.

  • Pofarmer

    Milo says he was already Gay at the time the abuse occured. This is twaddle.

    • DrewTwoFish

      Thank you!

  • Gary

    The sexual abuse of children is unfortunate. But it is no excuse for homosexual behavior.

    • Elie Challita

      Funny, decent people would look at it from the other direction: That homosexuality might be disagreeable to you, but that child abuse is inexcusable. Says a lot about your priorities.

      • Gary

        I’m not excusing child abuse. It should be illegal. So should homosexuality.

        • Elie Challita

          Why?

          • Gary

            Why should homosexuality be illegal? Because it is a hazard to society. It spreads disease and costs citizens a lot of money with no benefit to anyone. It also leads to the breakdown of morality in society which leads to many problems and expenses.

          • Elie Challita

            1- Not more than alcohol, or obesity. I don’t see you trying to ban cheeseburgers or bacon.
            2- How so?

          • Gary

            I would have no problem banning all recreational drugs. Lots of people live to be old eating cheeseburgers and bacon in moderation.

            An immoral society is very hard to govern and cannot be trusted to behave themselves. They are prone to hurt themselves, and others and cause a lot of problems. Hiring police and keeping people in jail is very expensive and unproductive. Those problems could be lessened if everyone would do what is right.

          • Elie Challita

            Actually obesity, smoking, and alcohol each kill more people than most drugs combined.

            How, exactly, do you expect to enforce “morality” without an extensive and all-intrusive police force? Who gets to define “morality”? And if that’s the case, do you support the US turning into Saudi Arabia?

          • Gary

            Alcohol and nicotine are recreational drugs.

            We enforce some morals now. We have laws against murder, theft, and some other things that are immoral. But, if people would police themselves and not do those things, no one else would have to police them.

            The God of the Bible defines morality. No one else has the authority to do it.

            No, I don’t want the US to be under Islamic law.

          • Elie Challita

            Why is Islamic Law any worse than Christian law, if you want to enforce your own morality?
            Assuming you decide to enforce monogamy, heterosexuality, prohibitions on drugs, etc, how will you be any different from Saudi Arabia, considering that these are literally the same laws that are enforced there.

          • Gary

            The Christian God is the definer of morality, not the Islamic god. I’m not a Muslim.

          • Elie Challita

            If you’re applying the same laws, what’s the difference?
            Saudi Arabia also bans homosexuality, recreational drugs, fornication, etc…

          • Gary

            If you are really interested, you might do a study of the differences between Christianity and islam. But you need not worry that a Christian theocracy will be employed any time soon. Eventually, it will. But first, an anti-Christian dictatorship will come along. You might like it. But it won’t last long.

          • Elie Challita

            Like I said, you want to ban the exact same thing that an Islamic theocracy is currently banning. You’re much closer to Al Qaeda than you are to the rest of us sane people.

          • Gary

            Are you sane? I doubt it. But I know you are wicked. Your support for homosexuals proves that.

          • Wise Guy

            That’s simple. Islamic law puts homosexuals and those accused of homosexuality to death. Islamic law puts adulterers and those accused of adultery to death, and especially women who are the victims of rape.

            I don’t even know what you mean by Christian law, but there is no modern day correlation.

          • Elie Challita

            So how would you punish people, in your Christian theocracy, who broke prohibitions against homosexuality, fornication, and recreational drug use?

          • Wise Guy

            I told you I don’t even know what Christian law means, which is another way of saying I have no plans or desires for a Christian theocracy.

            Since you asked me what I would do, I would say that I would not recognize homosexual unions as being marriages, but I would not prohibit the union. I just wouldn’t want any adoption rights being conferred to people who have neither the ability nor intentions of being a mother and a father to a child. We don’t live in a day and age when heterosexual couples are unwilling and unavailable to adopt. There is a very long waiting list in many places in America.

            As for fornication, I would do away with any governmental structures and programs that encourage fornication over marriage. The welfare system discourages marriage for fornication instead. I would eliminate anything from government that discourages marriage. Marriage is what is best for children and women. Divorce and fornication are not.

            As for drugs, I would decriminalize end users in large part, but would heavily go after the traffickers to eliminate the flow of drugs into the country. I would seek to make it easier for people to get into successful rehabilitation programs so as not to be hooked on drugs for the rest of their lives.

            In other words, “in my Christian theocracy” I wouldn’t punish anybody for any of the things you mentioned. I would simply use the government’s structures and programs to promote what is best for society and individuals, especially women and children (the two categories of people that are most harmed by the things you mentioned). Everybody makes their own choices with how far they are willing for morality to impact their personal lives. Governments cannot make individuals embrace a certain form of morality, but they can stop doing things that promote people embracing harmful practices.

          • Elizabeth Putnam

            Yet heterosexual people also spread disease. No matter what your sexual orientation, if you’re sexually active there is always a possibility of getting or giving an STD to someone if you don’t practice safe sex.

          • Wise Guy

            And sadly, our society rejects the one thing that would protect it from sexually transmitted diseases: monogamous heterosexual marriage for life with lots of sex within it and no sex outside of it.

            When we live in a way that is against what we were made for, we should not expect that things would go well for us.

          • Heero_Yuy

            Wise Guy,

            I want to ask you to Google whale . to Body Pleasure and the Origins of Violence by James W. Prescott, and tell me your thoughts on that. It seems to be suggesting that the standard you are giving tends to lead to violence and abuse within a given society.

            Thank you for considering these ideas.

            Heero Yuy

          • Gary

            Yes, heterosexuals spread disease. But there is no such thing as “safe sex” between males.

  • Mr. M

    Yeah. Reason 1,000,001 I left the church.

    • Dorrie

      I’m so sorry you were abused in church. But not all churches are like that! Will pray for you, Mr. M.

  • Liz Litts

    NO Child wants or ‘soliticts’ sexual abuse–it’s all in the head of the abuser! It seems that thinking that way gives them an out to blame someone else for their own perversion and filling their own selfish lusts.

  • Guglielmo Marinaro

    Well, it certainly didn’t contribute to mine, since I was never sexually abused.

    • Wise Guy

      Thanks for sharing. Had you had any sexual experiences prior to experiencing homosexual desires?

      • Guglielmo Marinaro

        Like so many other gay men, no.

        • Wise Guy

          One man who shared his story online mentioned how pornography initially viewed out of heterosexual lust turned into homosexual lust for him, and that was the beginning of his homosexual desires. Have you heard of that happening with others?

          I realize that both what I mentioned above and what Dr. Brown mentioned are simply anecdotal and that anecdotal evidence rates lower than most other things. Other anecdotal evidence I’ve heard of are having bad relationships with a certain parent. I don’t think these are the only explanations. I’m sure there are many who just find themselves with these desires through no fault of their own or by others’ actions and wish them gone, but they never leave.

          I would suggest that all people are sexually broken and that there are none who are pure. I would also suggest that there is a God who has standards that we all fall short of and are not excused from following. Therefore, we all need not only His mercy and forgiveness, but for Him to heal us from our brokenness or to give us the strength to act rightly as we seek to live our lives for Him. I have Christian friends who also have homosexual desires but chose to follow Christ instead of those desires. While I don’t personally have homosexual desires, I know what it is to have sexual desires that God calls sinful and both to fail miserably by giving into those desires and also to walk in the grace that God provides (not giving into those desires).

          • Heero_Yuy

            Dear Wise Guy,

            I don’t believe anecdotal evidence eahould be dismissed. My problem with Christianity is the selectivity of its anecdotal evidence. Christians are called to a higher standard, yet they often act just as the secular media dies and ignore stories from the other side. I’ve seen this with Voice of the Martyers and other publications. As a specific example, conservatives such as Sean Hannity often state that Muslims do not speak up enough about terrorism, but at the same time ignore groups and websites such as Muslims Against ISIS, Muslims Against Terror, Muslims Against Terrorism, and others.

            I realize this is unrelated, but I wanted to give you a specific example of what I am talking about.

            I have struggled and continue to struggle with this myself. But I read this entire article, published to Face book by a conservative friend, before commenting here.

            It is hard to look at the other side because it seems they distort the truth and sometimes I don’t pick up on it and get hurt. But I am trying. I hope you try as well.

            Heero Yuy

          • Wise Guy

            Heero_Yuy,

            It’s hard to make a good judgment by lumping all Christians together under the term Christianity and judging them. If we were to do that and list out the greatest faults we find, I believe my list would be much longer than yours. Why? Because the world is filled with poor thinkers. And not just poor – very poor! And just as they are found in places that you frequent and within groups you identify with, there are also many who are found in places I frequent and within groups I identify with. But that’s picking only on the worst apples when there are many more apples in the bushel.

            I won’t ignore your evidence if you’d like to present some. Islam is a mixed bag. There are nice, sweet friendly people and there are murderous terrorists and those who approve in every way of the murderous terrorists. They all exist. My friend was one of the nice, sweet friendly ones and he was murdered for a terrorist. He spoke out against terrorism. Another one does the same. Meanwhile, actual terrorists are in America scheming to kill multitudes of innocent non-Muslims because they are infidels, as was the case this past week in a town nearby where I live. Thankfully, his plot was foiled, but his evil schemes were not without support in Islamic “holy” books.

            Maybe I did not read what you wrote very well, what exactly is your struggle? Christians being not very wise or fair to evidence, homosexual desire, or something else?

            If the second, I would say that I struggle with illicit sexual desire myself. I don’t embrace it, but struggle or, as the Bible would say, strive against it. Those desires are to look at women lustfully, to fantasize about them in my mind, etc. I don’t want these desires. I only want to have desires for my wife (which I do have) and for no one else. I was not sexually abused as a child. I was not mistreated nor did I have a bad relationship with my father or mother. It was not pornography that got me to that point. These just seem to be the desires that come naturally to me. As I pointed out above, my explanation for my unholy thoughts and desires is not simply that I am a sinner (though I admittedly am one and a terrible one at that) but that I am also a broken human being, broken by the Fall in every way, and am quite incapable of changing myself. I need God the Healer every day. And I would add that I experience His rich mercy and grace and healing quite regularly. The fact that I know so much about God but am still not able to master my own soul keeps me rather humble about myself, but the fact that Jesus, the “Physician” of our souls, has dealt mercifully and gently with me gives me great confidence in Him and before others.

          • Heero_Yuy

            Wise Guy, thank you for your kind and gentoe response.

            Ok. Well. First I would point out that it is Muslims who are one of the if not the biggest victims of terrorism. Please Google Muslims Against Terror the World cannot continue to ignore:

            http: // muslimsagainstterror . com

            /the-world-cannot-continue-to-ignore-the-massacre-of-over-2000-in-the-muslim-town-of-baga-in-north-nigeria-muslimlivesmatter/

            Second, I would like to recommend you Google the following:

            Unclobber (and look at the videos)

            Stop Bible Abuse

            Gay Christian 101

            There are others, but I have not looked at them extensively yet:

            Walking the Bridge less Canyon

            YouTube The Reformation Project

            Third, yes, I have a mate. He and I are both furries. We love each other very much. I will always love him, for as long as he wants to be with me. I hope it is for life.

            Fourth, the reason I say Sin is an illusion is that it makes sense to me and I interpret the Bible from a New Thought as well as a Process Church of the Final Judgement as well as Gnostic Perspective.

            Google XIX the Bible and New Thought sacred texts.

            Google Truth Unity . org

            I realize this perspective is hated by most of modern Christianity, and I do not state my beliefs to provoke you to anger, but because I believe it is The truth.

            Finally, in relation to this article, I suggest the following:

            Facts about Homosexuality and Child Molestation Psychology UC Davis.

            I am reading it currently and the article it references, to get both sides.

            Heero Yuy

          • glenbo

            >”I know what it is to have sexual desires that God calls sinful and both to fail miserably by giving into those desires and also to walk in the grace that God provides”<
            One cannot declare homosexuality immoral without reason to do so.
            Belief in a non-existent imaginary god is not sufficient reason to declare homosexuality immoral.

          • Wise Guy

            Calling God a non-existent imaginary god is not sufficient reason for God to suddenly cease to exist or to do away with His standards. God exists. In fact, God is the only explanation that works for the existence of anything. I get the fact that difficult questions may surround God’s existence, but our existence and our universe’s existence can only be satisfactorily explained by a wise, powerful, personal God who exercised great care in bringing things into existence.

            If I could prove to you the Christian God exists, would you follow Him?

          • Gary

            No, he wouldn’t. In time, he will believe God is real. But it will be too late to be of any benefit to him.

          • Heero_Yuy

            Dear Gary,

            I wanted to share the following with you:

            While reflecting upon the parental love of God, a story came to mind that I read some months ago. In this story a man who was entirely careless of spiritual things died and went to hell. And he was much missed on earth by his old friends. His business manager went down to the gates of hell to see if there were any chance of bringing him back. But, though he pleaded for the gates to be opened, the iron bars never yielded. His cricket captain went also and besought Satan to let him out just for the remainder of the season. But there was no response. His minister went also and argued, saying, “He was not altogether bad. Let him have another chance. Let him out just this once.” Many other friends of his went also and pleaded with Satan saying, “Let him out, let him out, let him out.” But when his mother came, she spoke no word of his release. Quietly, and with a strange catch in her voice, she said to Satan, “Let me in.” And immediately the great doors swung open upon their hinges. For love goes down through the gates of hell and there redeems the damned! Our Father and God, incarnate in the Person of Jesus Christ, holds in His nail-pierced hand the keys of death and hell. O grave, where is Your victory? O gates of hell, you shall not prevail, for the Redeemer of Israel and the Saviour of the world, the God who IS LOVE holds in His triumphant hand your key!

            God Is Love, by J. Preston Eby

            Heero Yuy

          • Gary

            According to the Bible, once in Hell, always in Hell. Redemption happens while one is living on earth, or it never happens.

          • Heero_Yuy

            Gary,

            That isn’t true.

            24 and the nations of the saved in its light shall walk, and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it,

            Important:

            25 and its gates shall not at all be shut by day, for night shall not be there;

            26 and they shall bring the glory and the honour of the nations into it;

            Revelation 21 YLT Bible Gateway

            God’s will is for all to be Saved:

            22 for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,

            28 and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all.

            1 Corinthians 15 YLT Bible Gateway

            1I exhort, then, first of all, there be made supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings, for all men: 2for kings, and all who are in authority, that a quiet and peaceable life we may lead in all piety and gravity,
            Important:
            3for this [is] right and acceptable before God our Saviour, 4who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth; 5for one [is] God, one also [is] mediator of God and of men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who did give himself a ransom for all — the testimony in its own times — 7in regard to which I was set a preacher and apostle — truth I say in Christ, I do not lie — a teacher of nations, in faith and truth.

            1 Timothy 2 Bible Hub

            Weymouth New Testament
            It follows then that just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which extends to the whole race, so also the result of a single decree of righteousness is a life-giving acquittal which extends to the whole race.

            Young’s Literal Translation
            So, then, as through one offence to all men it is to condemnation, so also through one declaration of ‘Righteous’ it is to all men to justification of life;

            Romans 5:18 Bible Hub YLT and Weymouth New Testament

            46 And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian.”

            Matthew 25 Concordant Literal Version

            I encourage you to go to the following website:

            Google: Biblical Universalism . com

            It contains much better and more complete arguments than I can give in this comment.

            Heero Yuy

          • Gary

            The Bible does not teach universal salvation. You’re a fool for believing it does. It is VERY likely that YOU will end up in Hell. Forever.

          • Heero_Yuy

            Gary,

            I love you and bless you, and I bless the truth I have spoken, as it is written:
            25because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men; 26for see your calling, brethren, that not many [are] wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble;
            27but the foolish things of the world did God choose, that the wise He may put to shame; and the weak things of the world did God choose that He may put to shame the strong; 28and the base things of the world, and the things despised did God choose, and the things that are not, that the things that are He may make useless — 29that no flesh may glory before Him; 30and of Him ye — ye are in Christ Jesus, who became to us from God wisdom, righteousness also, and sanctification, and redemption, 31that, according as it hath been written, ‘He who is glorying — in the Lord let him glory.’

            1 Corinthians 1 YLT Bible Hub

            Heero Yuy

          • Wise Guy

            He answered as much. You can see his comment in the discussion.

          • glenbo

            >”God exists.””If I could prove to you the Christian God exists, would you follow Him?”<
            I could NEVER respect never mind "follow" someone that condones slavery, rape and the murder of children.
            I don't understand how anyone could…unless you live in a moral vacuum.

          • Wise Guy

            Thank you for answering honestly. I assumed as much. The reason you would not follow God is because you hate God.

          • glenbo

            >”The reason you would not follow God is because you hate God.”<
            Why do you hate Leprechauns? Unicorns?
            And the Keebler Elves?
            Why do you hate Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the tooth fairy?

          • Wise Guy

            I don’t. I don’t get emphatic about them at all. But if I did go on rants about them not existing and talk about how Santa Claus is a total lie in conversations with strangers, I would be willing to reconsider my stance if a stranger offered me sound, reasonable evidence for their existence.

            And I hope you would reconsider your stance as well if the same happened to you.

          • glenbo

            >” I would be willing to reconsider my stance if a stranger offered me sound, reasonable evidence for their existence.”<
            Well then. We are now in the same boat.
            You hate my Leprechaun friend, and I hate your invisible god.
            Perhaps you can resolve this by offering me "sound, reasonable evidence" for the existence of God.

          • Wise Guy

            >”I could NEVER respect never mind “follow” someone that condones… I don’t understand how anyone could…”<

            That's how you responded to my question “If I could prove to you the Christian God exists, would you follow Him?”

            It’s not that I think you’re not worth the effort – quite the contrary. It’s that you’ve admitted that if the proof were overwhelming for the existence of the Christian God, then you still wouldn’t follow Him. That admission combined with the words from the God you don’t believe in (the God who is there) would seem to indicate that there isn’t much point in me sharing information with you that you’ve already decided to reject.

            “And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.” – Hebrews 11:6

            “You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.” – Jeremiah 29:13

            I would highly encourage you change the stance in your heart and mind.

            “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble… Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom. Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will exalt you.”
            – James 4:6,8-10

            “Seek the Lord while he may be found;
            call upon him while he is near;
            let the wicked forsake his way,
            and the unrighteous man his thoughts;
            let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him,
            and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
            For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
            neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord.
            For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
            so are my ways higher than your ways
            and my thoughts than your thoughts.”
            – Isaiah 55:6-9

          • glenbo

            >”there isn’t much point in me sharing information with you that you’ve already decided to reject.”<
            Why don't you give me your best shot.
            If you have some missing "information" that is convincing, I am all ears.
            let's hear it.

          • Wise Guy

            I wouldn’t call anything I have missing information. I have a reasonable interpretation of existing information.

            First, do you agree that the universe (time, space, matter, and energy) had a beginning?

          • glenbo

            >”I wouldn’t call anything I have missing information. I
            have a reasonable interpretation of existing information.””First, do you agree that the universe (time, space,
            matter, and energy) had a beginning?”<

            I will gladly answer this question when you answer mine
            above about where you get the “missing information.”

          • Wise Guy

            “If you have some missing “information” that is convincing, I am all ears. Let’s hear it.”

            You sound as if you’ve changed your tune. If you’re going to reject God at all costs, there isn’t much point in continuing, is there?

            I’d recommend you don’t make too many assumptions. I didn’t mention the Bible. You did. I freely admit I believe the Bible. Shocker, right? Yet, I did not bring it up.

            Back to the question, do you agree that the universe (time, space, matter, and energy) had a beginning?

          • glenbo

            >” I didn’t mention the Bible. You did. I freely admit I believe the Bible. Shocker, right? Yet, I did not bring it up.”<
            You didn't???
            Go back 3 posts, sir.
            Now you are just being dishonest.
            You loose credibility when you don't back up claims and play games.

          • Gary

            Yes, it is. But if there is no God, then NOTHING is objectively immoral. Or moral.

          • glenbo

            >” if there is no God, then NOTHING is objectively immoral. Or moral.”<
            Why is slavery immoral?

          • Gary

            If you are talking about the kind of slavery practiced in the US before the civil war, that was immoral because God said so. Those people were kidnapped, which God condemns, and forced to work for people they did not have any obligation to, which God also condemns.

          • glenbo

            Jesus Christ, dude. READ your damn bible.

            Do you need help? I can show you MANY horrible slavery verses.

            Beating, killing them, buying them and tricking them.

            http://www.skepticsannotatedbible. com/topics/slavery.html

            http://skepticsannotatedbible. com/says_about/slavery.html

            Delete the space between the dot and com and paste to your browser.
            Will you friggin’ educate yourself???

          • Gary

            Even if it is as you say, and it isn’t, you have no reason to think slavery, assault, or killing are immoral. There is no basis for immorality in atheism. Morality can only exist if there is a God to define what it is. If there is no God, then there can be no such thing as morality.

          • glenbo

            >”Even if it is as you say, and it isn’t,”<
            Even if what is???

          • Elizabeth Putnam

            I’m bisexual. I was never sexually abused as a child or young teenager. I still turned out bisexual. I’ve never been into porn just because it doesn’t do anything for me. I was in a two year relationship with a guy previous to me being involved with a woman. My ex was a good person.

          • Wise Guy

            Thanks for sharing, Elizabeth. I personally think men are more susceptible to pornography because we seem to be wired more for visual stimulation. That is not to say that women don’t find visual appeal – they certainly do. It’s just not to the level that most men experience it. When you say you “turned out” bisexual, was there any sort of process to it for you? What I mean is, did you wake up suddenly one day desiring women or did you find the desires gradually coming on?

          • Guglielmo Marinaro

            No, I have not heard of that happening with others. I treat stories of people being turned homosexual by pornography with severe scepticism. (Which is not to say that I approve of pornography of any kind; I don’t.) It has not been uncommon in the past for people, especially younger people, who cannot come to terms with their homosexual orientation to try to change it to a heterosexual one by using heterosexual pornography. I dare say that some are still trying it. They invariably fail. I see no reason to believe that the opposite process is any more likely of success. Whatever, no such “explanation” applies to me.

            While both heterosexual and homosexual people can be and sometimes are tempted by desires to do things that are wrong, and which they need to resist, I do not believe that homosexual desires per se are any more sinful or “broken” than heterosexual ones.

          • Wise Guy

            I guess a little more explanation of that man’s story would be helpful. It was on a website dedicated to helping people find sexual purity in a sexually impure world (pornography, as you seem to also understand it, is one of those impure things). Although it’s been almost twenty years ago since I found this website, his story stood out to me as a possibility I had never considered and admittedly scared me a bit (not because I had those desires but because I feared I could develop them). His story was that he was a full-blooded heterosexual male with a big sexual appetite that he followed into spending countless hours of watching porn and masturbation. He said he started with soft core pornography and found that he “needed” more, so he got into hard core pornography. He was getting his kicks from watching the women, but eventually that transitioned to also deriving pleasure from watching the men. I don’t remember if he ended up not desiring women in the end or if he simply ended up with sexual desires for both men and women. And it went from viewing onscreen sexual acts to sexual acts in person. But, the moral of the story as he put it was that his out of control appetite for pornography and following those desires for sexual pleasure are how he found himself hooked on and trapped by every manner of sexual sin (biblically defined).

            Out of curiosity, why do you disapprove of pornography? That seems somewhat counterintuitive to me. From my experiences in talking with gay people, I have come to expect a near blanket approval of almost any form of sexual expression. Do you find yourself in somewhat of a minority on that?

            I appreciate you sharing your story and what you know of others’ stories with me. I find people don’t generally want to have this conversation with me face to face because it’s either too personally embarrassing for them to share it or they fear I would judge them. I really just want to understand people better.

          • Guglielmo Marinaro

            I believe that sexual behaviour should be the expression of love between partners. The danger of pornography is that it is not only a distraction from that, but can easily become a substitute for it, sometimes an addictive one. That is why I do not regard it as something to be encouraged.

          • Wise Guy

            I like your answer. It is a cheap substitute for something that is exceedingly better. It’s a knock-off that promises much but delivers little compared to what we were made for.

            I would add that this is the inherent nature of all things God calls “sin.” While they may be pleasurable for a season, they inhibit us from experiencing the fullness of the blessings we were created to receive. Promising much, they deliver pitifully little compared to what would be ours if we lived in accordance with what we were made for and Him who made us.

          • Gary

            Then you don’t believe the Bible.

  • RevBill

    Correlation is not causation.

    • Wise Guy

      No, but simply saying that doesn’t mean that this correlation can’t also be causation.

      • DrewTwoFish

        Which move things forward not one whit.

        It is dangerous and lazy to come to a firm conclusion about things from correlation in isolation.

        • Wise Guy

          True, but it is likewise dangerous and lazy to recognize that correlation does not equal causation while likewise dismissing the possibility that a specific identified correlation could, therefore, not also be causative.

          I don’t think there is one cause for homosexuality to be found. There may very well be, but it is my non-scientific belief that there are likely multiple reasons people end up with homosexual desires. I say “non-scientific” because as far as I know there have been no true experiments or studies performed that have been able to reproducibly identify even one cause for homosexuality. If you believe in a once perfect but now fallen universe (the Christian explanation), then I don’t know why it is so hard to envision that every aspect of our psyche (as well as the rest of our physical existence) is somehow adversely affected from the effects of the Fall. Therefore, while it is evident that male and female are meant to go together, the “wiring” of our desires is faulty (or broken) and not working as it once would have, so there are those whose desires do not reflect the initial design. Actually, all of us have desires that are out of step with the antecedents for which they were created. I don’t see why homosexual desires would be any different.

          • Heero_Yuy

            God works through the fall. God works through each heart and mind saying yes to what we believe and then letting us experience the consequences. Sin is illusion. Loving another being is greater than illusion.

            I love you as I love all beings.

            As it is, so be it.

            Heero Yuy

          • Wise Guy

            Yes, God works through the Fall. Jesus became cursed Himself to redeem us from the curse of the Fall. He sacrificially gave His own life to rescue us from the wrath we deserve for our sin-filled rebellion against God by absorbing that wrath in Himself and removing it from everyone who believes in Him. His body was broken and His blood was poured out so we would never suffer God’s punishment. He became sin so that we could become children of God. God certainly works through the Fall.

            And God does work when we say “yes” to Him and put our trust in Jesus and turn to Him with all our hearts while turning away from the things He calls sin. As for sin being an illusion, I am not the One who decides that. And based on everything I have read and understand, sin is willful rebellion against God and His commandments which He has written on our hearts via our consciences (how we innately understand it is wrong to murder and steal). God’s commands express His character. We shouldn’t murder because He is the Author of life. We shouldn’t steal because He is the God who gives. We shouldn’t covet others’ possessions because He is not covetous but generous. We should honor Him with one day out of seven set aside for worship because He has honored us by creating us and giving us time on this Earth. We should honor our parents because they in a very small way act as His representatives by loving and caring for us as He likewise honorably loves and cares for us.

            Now, the person who loves God with all His heart, soul, mind, and strength and loves his neighbor as he loves himself is the person who has understood the most important concept: love is the fulfillment of all of God’s commands. They are all designed to point us to love God and love people. If I love God, I will not misuse His holy name. If I love my wife, I will not commit adultery. If I love you, I will not lie to you or falsely accuse you. Love is the greatest thing we can do. Truth is the greatest thing we can believe.

            Love to you my friend.

  • Wise Guy

    There are probably many causes. This may very well be one of them. However, God did not make any of us to be gay or anything other than heterosexually and lovingly committed to and sexually joined to one partner for life. All the brokenness in this world is a result of mankind turning from God to follow our own pursuits (i.e. “The Fall”), though it is not necessarily the result of the individual turning from God. Everyone is a sexual sinner in need of The Savior, and none of us can claim we are without sin and, therefore, without need of The Savior. We all have to turn from sexual sin – no matter if our orientation is heterosexual sin or homosexual sin – and turn to the Lord in repentance and faith. For the heterosexual this means repenting of lust and turning away from images and thoughts and acts that are outside of a lifelong, committed heterosexual marriage to one partner for life. For the homosexual this means repenting of lust and turning away from images and thoughts and acts that are outside of a lifelong, committed, heterosexual marriage to one partner for life.

    We are all fallen and all broken and all in need of the healing hand of God. And there is a God who will ultimately bring the healing we seek when we seek it in Him. We may not see this healing until we check out of this broken world, but only those who turn to Him will ever experience His healing and it will be everlasting. Those who love their sin more than God will only ever experience brokenness and it will be everlasting.

    • The Wickerman

      Keep your fantasy stories of angry, vindictive sky-wizards out of the conversations of adults.
      If you want to believe that garbage, go right ahead, but it has absolutely no merit.
      Preach your hate and goofy crap elsewhere.

      • Foster

        doesn’t that sand smother you?

        • The Wickerman

          No sand! No sand! You’re the sand!

          • Foster

            truth hurts, i know

      • Wise Guy

        That was not very persuasive. Or scientific. Or winsome. Apparently you believe in eternal universes?

        • The Wickerman

          I don’t need or desire to convince anyone to believe anything. If these stories work for you, then enjoy them. Just don’t tell others that what you believe is the truth when there is no proof to back you up.

          • Wise Guy

            If your story of a self-creating universe works for you, then enjoy them. Just don’t tell others that what you believe is the truth when there is no proof to back you up.

          • The Wickerman

            Excellent “I Know You Are But What Am I?” answer.
            I don’t profess to know any truth. But as an adult, you should be able to spot fiction when you read it.

          • Wise Guy

            For your benefit I will underline all the truth claims in your original statement to me and bolden all your evaluations of those truth claims:

            “Keep your fantasy stories of angry, vindictive sky-wizards out of the conversations of adults.
            If you want to believe that garbage, go right ahead, but it has absolutely no merit. [Is that true?]
            Preach your hate and goofy crap elsewhere.”

            For someone who doesn’t “profess to know any truth,” you certainly seem happy to go around and tell others what is and is not true.

            I can spot fiction when I read it. A self-creating or an eternal universe is abjectly fictitious. It belongs to the genre of fantasy.

          • The Wickerman

            Gosh, you Sky-Wizard worshippers sure do spend a lot of time defending your goofy stories, it’s almost as if you have no actual proof and just get mad that people point out the silliness of them. And here you could be gaining favour by telling the wizard how great and awesome he is, assuring your eventual lodging in a solid-gold palace in the sky.

          • Wise Guy

            Mad? I’m not mad. I’m cool, calm, and collected. Most people probably do get mad when they disagree. On this subject, it is rare that I would get perturbed. I get it. People don’t want God to exist because of the inherent consequences that accompany His existence, so they will do or say anything to discredit even the thought of Him. I was probably that way once myself. It doesn’t really bother me, even if it is stated in a condescending tone (such as the way you spoke in a belittling way of my faith in God), because I understand that it is not me that people oppose as much as it is God. As for defending my story, I don’t recall defending it. I did attack the alternatives ever so slightly. Truth matters. And that’s all I’ve concerned myself with during our brief and interesting conversation. I hope for you that truth for truth’s sake will one day matter as well and that you will be willing to part ways with every false idea for the sake of absolute truth.

            I would like to point out that the God of the Christians does not impart favour in response to receiving worship nor does He grant Heaven due to either our worship or service. Both His favour and Heaven are given as a free gift that He gives to guilty sinners (such as me) who turn from living for themselves and their sins and turn to Him, and it is all because of the righteous life of Jesus and His substitutionary sacrifice of Himself (in our place). God’s favour and promise of eternal life are given to me, not earned by me, because He was fully pleased by the life of His Son who fully paid the penalty of my sins by His death on a cross.

            And while I am fully aware that you do not believe any of the above paragraph, I have witnessed God transform even the hardest of hearts by the truths in that paragraph. I have asked the Lord to surprise you by His grace as well.

          • The Wickerman

            There will be no surprise. I spent years going to bible studies, I belonged to the Logos Christian Fellowship, Campus Crusade for Christ, “witnessed”, went to a “speaking in tongues” church to see what that was all about, etc. etc.
            Then I grew up and realized that organized religion and yes, even Christianity was a man-created myth that has been used throughout history to control people. Too many holes in the stories, too many contradictions, and all these big religions profess to know the one true way to whatever “reward” awaits those who follow the steps to their “eternal reward”.
            And I’m not an atheist at all. Feel free to preach this stuff to whoever will listen to it.
            I guess you don’t realize how weird all that sin and grace and sacrifice stuff really sounds. Enjoy it, I’ll be fine.

          • Wise Guy

            For your sake, I can only hope you are right. I can’t change what I believe so easily as the beginning of my testimony of coming to faith involves a God-experience at a specific time in a specific place (and a rather unlikely one without spiritual expectations being much of a factor, and not at all in my case) and four witnesses (myself being one of them) to something I could only describe as too great to have been anything other than God. I was more than a bit surprised to hear two other people corroborate they too had identical experiences at the exact moment I had in the exact place I had and that a third person had actually seen Jesus Christ in the same room at the same moment. In other words, 4 people independently witnessed or experienced the presence of God in that room. I’m sure you can think of 10,000 objections to it, but I know what I experienced and that psychological factors such as spiritual expectation aren’t able to account for it all. Heck, I was asleep when it happened and was awakened by it. Of course, couple that with what happened a year later – a very dramatic and instantaneous and lasting transformation of the dark recesses of my soul that coincided with the first time I ever cried out to God for mercy and asked Jesus to come into my life (at this point in my life I had never heard of such a thing and didn’t know it was what you were “supposed” to do to become a Christian… I just felt the need for forgiveness and finally understood the message of the cross) – and I really have a hard time with the thought of walking away from the faith. My ongoing experience is of God being near (the same God who had always seemed so far off and unreachable before He brought me to faith… I wasn’t really looking), but nothing like that initial experience.

            I am curious though, what made you come to the conclusion that Christianity was a man-created myth. There must have been a process to it as opposed to waking up on Tuesday not believing everything you held dear on Monday.

          • The Wickerman

            Whatever works for you, people have “seen” aliens, The Virgin Mary floating around, various versions of “The Devil”, all kinds of things. I’ve seen UFOs and ghosts. And I’m not going to bore anyone with why I believe or don’t believe in whatever. Of course it was an involved process, but just like you having a magical moment, I had one too. And it involved no longer buying the bible stories. End of story, if this christianity thing happens to be “the only way” then I should be fine having been “born again” at one time, right? Just like someone can murder and torture thousands of beings all their life and at the last second “accept the lord” and be welcomed into “heaven”, me being a pretty good person all my life and then becoming a “born again christian” and then deciding “nahhh.. not my deal anymore man” I still should have my Free Pass to Eternal Gold Mansions etc.

  • george

    Romans 1 can not be used against same sex attracted people.
    SSA people know from very childhood they are same sex attracted. Many christian men and women have prayed and cried out to God day and night but they got no answer. We SSA people never rejected God.
    If romans 1 is truth, than all idol worshippers would of been lgbt, because they worship creatures instead of the creator. But they are not gays.
    There are atheists who rejected God , but they are not gays.
    Hop you understand what I mean.
    Romans 1 doesn’t work.

    • Gary

      Homosexuality is immoral, according to the Bible. There is no way around that.

      • Redie Armon Jr

        True, Rom 1:28 says that God gave them over to this spirit of a reprobate mind, which is a diabolical spirit from satan to send confusion to a person that has allowed themselves to be open to this spirit. A spirit can not just take a person over without a person giving this spirit the authority by embracing it instead of confronting it. And from the article most people who have been caught up in this life style never ever tell on their abuser because they have been told not to tell anyone or they will get themselves and the person who abused them in trouble. So they live with this until they have been convinced that its okay and that their is nothing wrong trying to put the trauma behind them, but instead of doing just that, they end up drawing to more people caught up with the same problem and then they give themselves over to this spirit, and convince themselves that this lie is normal and that they were born this way, which contradicts the proof from the article. Many people have been delivered, healed and set free from this life style by the Power of The Spirit of God.

        • Tim A

          I suggest you start reading the passage at Romans 1:18 to get a full understand of what Paul is talking about in this section of Romans. Also, you might want to read the opening verses of Romans 2.

          • Redie Armon Jr

            Tim A – I think you need to read that chapter again yourself and see how it builds on the progression of sin, then the nature of sin, then from disobeying G-d and the consequences of the person’s actions from Rom 1:17-32. Maybe you are not a Christian or a G-d Fearer, I don’t know, but G-d nor those the scriptures support belief’s that are contrary to His nature as Creator.

          • Tim A

            So let’s break it down:

            Starting at verse 18 (NIV):

            “18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.”

            God is angry at people who suppress the truth, because the truth is so plainly revealed in everyday life.

            “21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.”

            Even though they know who God is, they worshiped idols.

            “24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.”

            So God let these idol worshipers degrade themselves with sexual acts that were not natural for these people.

            “28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.”

            And we conclude Romans 1 with a nice long list of what God allowed these people to do. But let’s not stop here. After all, Paul’s letter was not initially written in chapters. That came much later for our collective benefit. So, going into Romans 2:

            “1 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.”

            Wait… what is that? Do not pass judgement on those people he was just writing about?? Why would this be here?

            “2 Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?
            5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.”

            I like Romans 2:5 — “because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself”

            Peace be with you, brother. I pray you get to know your gay brothers and sisters for who they are. Judging them while keeping them at arms length will only bring God’s wrath upon yourself… and I wish that on nobody, not even Michael Brown; though I fear he may to ingrained in his own theology that he does not see the people he is hurting.

          • Tim A

            I agree. It IS a progression. First, people turned their backs on God and started worshiping idols (Romans 1:18-23). Then God gave them over to their sinful desires, because they no longer worshiped Him (Romans 1:24-32). However, the next thing that follows (Romans 2:1) is a rebuke about judging the people Paul was writing about in Romans 1, clearly stating that by judging others you condemn yourself. The entire point of Romans 1 is to set you up so Paul could slap you in the face with your own arrogance in Romans 2.

          • glenbo

            How does one determine the bible is true?

    • Redie Armon Jr

      Your statements contradict the research in the article, which has been known in the 50’s and 60’s when clinical sciences interviewed children that had been abused and went into this life style back then. The information was suppressed by the homosexual community during that time, they had no answer for trying to say that they were born this way, and no medical doctor has ever confirmed this to be the case as well, in fact many have concluded that their is no such Genetic or DNA strand or Cell comprised at birth or during the birth cycle. Rom 1:28 says that God gave them over to this spirit of a reprobate mind, which is a diabolical spirit from satan to send confusion to a person that has allowed themselves to be open to this spirit. A spirit can not just take a person over without a person giving this spirit the authority by embracing it instead of confronting it. And from the article most people who have been caught up in this life style never ever tell on their abuser because they have been told not to tell anyone or they will get themselves and the person who abused them in trouble. So they live with this until they have been convinced that its okay and that their is nothing wrong trying to put the trauma behind them, but instead of doing just that, they end up drawing to more people caught up with the same problem and then they give themselves over to this spirit, and convince themselves that this lie is normal and that they were born this way, which contradicts the proof from the article. Many people have been delivered, healed and set free from this life style by the Power of The Spirit of God. The scriptures says “God cannot lie, and let God be true, but every man a liar.

      • Redie Armon Jr

        Reprobate Greek – adokimos (αδόκιμος) signifying “not standing the test, rejected’ (a. negative, dokimos, “approved”), (b) of a person Rom 1:28, of a reprobate mind,” a mind of which God cannot approve, and which must be rejected by Him, the effect of refusing, “to have God in their knowledge”; to be cast or rejected, men whose moral sense is perverted and whose mind is beclouded with their own speculations.

        • Tim A

          The Hebrew word in Leviticus is to’evah — I suggest you look that one up.

      • Elizabeth Putnam

        The study would not be taken seriously today because it is over 50 years old. Also I’m bisexual, I’m attracted to both men and women. Yet I was never sexually abused as a child or a teenager. I know many other LGBTQ+ people who are the same way as me.

  • Foster

    We are all born with sin of Adam on our hands. Yes the sins of the father do revisit the next generations, but it’s not hopeless, there is a way out. Though my sins are scarlet they will be made white as snow.

  • gigi4747

    I follow Robert oscar Lopez and he has asked conservatives not to refer to him as “ex-gay.” He claims that he is bisexual. I think he is gay, honestly. My own thoughts on this issue is that even if people are not born gay, it does not follow that homosexuality can be cured. It is probably a psychiatric disease (there is also a correlation between psych illnesses and abuse, in my experience) and there are very few if any psych diseases that are curable.

    • george

      Are you gay?

      • gigi4747

        Lol do you mean happy? Very!

    • Elizabeth Putnam

      Who are you to say who is gay and who isn’t? If Robert Oscar Lopez calls himself bisexual then he is bisexual.

      • gigi4747

        Who am I to have an opinion? Next question, please.

  • glenbo

    From the above article I quote:

    >”there are plenty of gay men who were never abused and
    plenty of straight men who were abused as boys and never turned gay”

    What about homosexual girls/women? Any “research” on how
    they became homosexual?
    This statement renders the entire point of this article ludicrous
    and meritless in determining how society is to treat LGBT people especially
    LGBT youth in general as a whole.

    >”As for the notion that people are born gay, not only
    would that suggest that infants can relate to the concepts of sexual and
    romantic attraction (which they obviously cannot), but it would also ignore the
    fact that our upbringing and environment have profound effects on us.””Every single gay person I know has some sort of drama
    going on””all the professional counselors I have spoken with
    (including trained pastors and psychologists or psychiatrists) have told me
    that the vast number of gays they have counseled were sexually abused as minors””we strongly oppose sex-based LGBT curricula in the
    schools”<

    Again, manipulative fear-invoking words…how do you get from
    diversity acceptance to “sex-based?”
    This curriculum teaches diversity and respect for those who
    are different from us. It makes no sense to eliminate it unless the agenda is
    to continue stigmatizing LGBT children. (Duh) This hypocritical message…’we
    want our LGBT people to be treated well, so let’s eliminate teaching others to
    respect them’… makes no sense.
    But what truly doesn’t make sense is the overall point being
    made in the above article:

    ‘Many LGBT children were abused, so let’s respond by denying
    them rights and teaching their peers that they are not to be accepted and respected.’
    In other words, the lives of LGBT people suck…so let’s do the Christian thing
    by making their lives even MORE unbearable. It sickens me that LGBT children
    are seen only from a sexual or “sex-based” point of view and not from a human
    being point of view. Why must the religious right see children as sexual
    objects or sex representatives and not as fellow humans? How creepy is that? This
    takes being creepy beyond creepiness.

    This woman does not belong in any advisory position
    especially involving children.

    Compassion: Absent.
    Love: Absent.
    Empathy: Absent.
    Knowledge: Absent.
    Vision: Creepy.
    Logic: FAIL.

    • Redie Armon Jr

      No one was created this way on the contrary, Reprobate Greek – adokimos (αδόκιμος) signifying “not standing the test, rejected’ (a. negative, dokimos, “approved”), (b) of a person Rom 1:28, of a reprobate mind,” a mind of which God cannot approve, and which must be rejected by Him, the effect of refusing, “to have God in their knowledge”; to be cast or rejected, men whose moral sense is perverted and whose mind is beclouded with their own speculations. In the OT – Lev 18:22; God calls this behavior and life style “an Abomination to Him”, and the Hebrew word for “abomination” means in reference to God as Creator, describes people, things, acts, relationships, and characteristics that are “detestable” to Him, because they are contrary to “His nature as Creator”. In the NT homosexual life style is called many other things that a lot of people miss when reading the scriptures. Its called: unseemly, to defile, unrighteousness, effeminate, etc. Medical Science even testifies against your opinion about evidence otherwise, and the article already mentioned that no all who have been abused turn out homosexual, it seems you have a selective bias toward the things you like in the article as opposed to the things you don’t like, you can’t have it both ways, this info has been know in the 50’s and 60’s when clinical sciences interviewed men & woman who had been sexually abused and were struggling with this life style of homosexuality and lesbianism.

      • glenbo

        >” a mind of which God cannot approve, and which must be rejected by Him”” Medical Science even testifies against your opinion
        about evidence otherwise”<

        Proof, please.

        • Heero_Yuy

          Glenbo,

          I don’t believe being Gay is evil. In fact my mate is a guy. However I do believe in God and I think there is evidence of your existence. You and everything are apart of God.

          I believe that Dr. Anton Bechamp, and Dr. Wilhelm Reich, when viewed together, provide evidence of God’s existence.

          Please Google: whale . to Dr. Wilhelm Reich

          Please Google Orgone Labs . org because a scientist there has done confirmatory work on the original studies done by Dr. Reich on the life force

          Please Google: Pasteur or Bechamp PDF

          The best way to determine God’s existence is through direct knowing, philosophical arguments get us nowhere. I think John Loftus and Ayn Rand have already shown that. I believe that the external evidence can lead one to look inside for that inner knowing.

          I love you as I love all beings. I appreciate your comment and look forward to talking to you again in the future.

          Heero Yuy

          • glenbo

            >”The best way to determine God’s existence is through direct knowing,”<
            I disagree.
            By your standard, Leprechauns exist.
            You gotta do better than that.

          • Heero_Yuy

            Glenbo

            If you don’t wish to use personal experience, then at least use the other evidence I have provided. Make those Google searches and tell me what you find. I would provide links for you, but this can’t besumarized by a brief quote as I do below and when I provide direct links my comments are not allowed to be posted.

            I don’t really understand why you would attack direct personal experience. It is the basis for all science. In was reading about Charles Darwin the other day, and so many of his theories came from personal observations and even input to him by other people, and many common people.

            I think the following is also relevant:

            Argument # 4: The Invisible Pink Unicorn / Santa Claus gambit

            Stated as: “Of course I can’t prove that God, spirits, UFO’s, paranormal phenomena or metaphysical realities don’t exist, but you can’t prove to me that invisible pink unicorns and Santa Claus don’t exist either, but that doesn’t mean that they are real.”

            This ridiculous comparison tactic is notoriously common among pseudoskeptics, yet so severely flawed and ludicrous that you have to wonder about the sanity of the person using it. It basically lumps all paranormal phenomena in the same category as anything a skeptic makes up out of thin air. It is more of a belittling tactic than a reasoned argument. Other similar variations of this are “you can’t prove to me that there wasn’t a dragon hiding in my garage either” and “ you can’t prove to me that little green gremlins aren’t stealing pennies from my pockets either,” etc.

            The premise behind this argument is that if a claim is unprovable, then it’s in the same category as everything that is deliberately made up or fictionalized. However, not only is this false and a mere play on words, but it is a complete straw man argument because it falsely redefines the opposing position in terms that make it more easily attackable, using false comparisons. A simple examination reveals this.

            1) First, the main problem with this argument is that what people actually experience is NOT the same thing as what a skeptic deliberately makes up for the sake of argument! To put the two in the same category is both illogical and underhanded.

            From, Debunking the Arguments of Pseudo Skeptics And Paranormal Debunkers, by Winston Wu

            Heero Yuy

      • Tim A

        “this info has been know in the 50’s and 60’s when clinical sciences interviewed men & woman who had been sexually abused”

        The above statement shows the fallacy of the argument from the 50s & 60s. They ONLY interviewed people who had been sexually abused. What about people who were never sexually abused and still turned out gay? Oh, that’s right. Their lives were fine, so they weren’t seeking out treatments. It is, and always has been, bad research to examine one small section and extrapolate the data to an entire population. If you ran a study on female prostitutes who were seeking medical treatments for STDs, would you use that data to theorize something about all women?

        • Redie Armon Jr

          They interviewed those who had not been abused as well, I forgot to mention that also, my mistake. The point is that they knew that this life style affected the mind and the emotional being and they (Clinical Science Field) listed homosexuality as a mental health illness, but the homosexual community tried to keep this diagnosis from getting out and pressure was put on the clinical science leaders to change the diagnosis before it was published, but it was published but in public the findings was suppressed. Amazing

          Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

        • Redie Armon Jr

          Actually, both groups were interviewed, I just mentioned the first group in response to the others reply to the article. In the 50’s and 60’s clinical science field as a mental illness, by some of the colleagues in that field had the research findings changed, but it was still published with the correct diagnosis, but the homosexual community kept this information from the majority of homosexuals & lesbians for years and most still don’t know this info.

          • Heero_Yuy

            Dear Rene Armin Jr.

            If researchers in the 59’s and 60’s already felt that being Homosexual was a sign of mental illness, then how could they not show bias in who they interviewed? An other words, how did they distinguish between those who were gay from birth and those who had been abused and then had fallen into the lifestyle through abuse. Or if it was assumed that all gay people had fallen into the lifestyle, then how did they account for the bias of their own presupposition?

            Heero Yuy

        • anne55

          Correlation does not equal causation.

      • Heero_Yuy

        Dear Redie Armon Jr,

        “What cannot be proved, if verses are admitted at this random rate”

        -Alter Balfour, An Inquiry Into the Meaning of the Words Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus

        Paul is here, in verse 1:27, likely quoting an ancient Greek text, related to or possibly a version of the Wisdom of Solomon. These texts were written to assure the Jewish people that God was on their side and not on the side of the wicked gentiles. It is the style of Pauline Writing and speaking to drop in quotes from others. Paul quotes a pagan philosopher in Acts, for instance. Paul’s audience would likely have recognized this and been very glad to hear the quote. Many were Jewish people coming back to Rome after they had been cast out because other members of their faith had rioted against the Christians. They had come back to churches which had become dominated by Gentile leadership, who took those roles to fill the vacume. They wanted to believe that God was partial in his judgment to the Jewish People. However when we look at Chapter 2 of Romans we see Paul refuting the concept of Judging others based on these words of what he quoted:

        Romans 2

        1 Therefore, thou art inexcusable, O man — every one who is judging — for in that in which thou dost judge the other, thyself thou dost condemn, for the same things thou dost practise who art judging, 2 and we have known that the judgment of God is according to truth, upon those practising such things. 3 And dost thou think this, O man, who art judging those who such things are practising, and art doing them, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4 or the riches of His goodness, and forbearance, and long-suffering, dost thou despise? — not knowing that the goodness of God doth lead thee to reformation! 5 but, according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou dost treasure up to thyself wrath, in a day of wrath and of the revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who shall render to each according to his works; 7 to those, indeed, who in continuance of a good work, do seek glory, and honour, and incorruptibility — life age-during; 8 and to those contentious, and disobedient, indeed, to the truth, and obeying the unrighteousness — indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and distress, upon every soul of man that is working the evil, both of Jew first, and of Greek; 10 and glory, and honour, and peace, to every one who is working the good, both to Jew first, and to Greek.

        YLT Bible Romans 2

        Paul is explicetly stating that when we judge others we are judging oursel

        But perhaps Paul was quoting it because he believed it was correct? Or perhaps I and others are wrong and Paul is writing of his own accord. Even so this doesn’t support your view, because the context of Romans 1 is cultic temple prostitution.

        And this can apply whether the text is quoted or original to Paul, since temple prostitution is an ancient practice.

        So what we have here is are verse about temple prostitution I’m the context of Paul’s warning us about condemning others when we ourselves practice the same un righteousness. Not Temple Prostitution, in the case of most of his hearers, but rather, “suppressing the truth,” as the Jewish Christians did when they tried to force the gentiles to convert to following the law, and traditions made by men which make the word of God of no account.

        Heero Yuy

        • glenbo

          >”traditions made by men which make the word of God of no account”<
          Stop right there…
          Why should I believe the bible is in any way true?
          If one cannot prove the bible is true, it must be dismissed as a standard of authority.

          • Gary

            Christians are convinced the Bible is true. If you don’t want to believe the Bible, you will have to face the consequences of that decision when God requires you to.

          • glenbo

            >”you will have to face the consequences of that decision when God requires you to.”<
            Which is MY DAMN BUSINESS and NOT yours.

          • Gary

            OK. But that doesn’t mean I can’t enjoy it.

          • Heero_Yuy

            Glenbo,

            That is an excellent point, however, I was not directly addressing you and that is why I did not directly present evidence for the Bible as a Standard of Authority.

            In another comment to you, I talked about Dr. Wilhelm Reich and Dr. Anton Bechamp and asked you to do a Google search related to these men. Becamp discovered that bacteria could change shape and size, and that they actually evolved directly from the cells that they helped to create, rather than being foreign invadors. Dr. Reich discovered something similar, but he also discovered a life force which can actually bring life out of dead matter. He came up with weather experiements which have since been replicated by another scientist, and I gave you a source for this in the other comment.

            What does this have to do with the Bible? The Bible teaches that God is Spirit, Universal, and that each of us is spirit Individualized, like streams from a common wellspring. This makes perfect sense in terms of what both Reich and Be champ discovered, scientifically.

            Please Google Ch. XIX The Bible and New Thought

            This will explain the rest of what I am talking about

            And also Google, YouTube Interview John Hagelin Consciousness

            This will explain the power of Consciousness mentioned in that article, which you will probably also want evidence for.

            Heero Yuy

          • glenbo

            >”which you will probably also want evidence for”<
            Still waiting for you to do so.
            …waiting…

          • Heero_Yuy

            I would be glad to provide links, however each time I try to share them Disqus prevents me from posting. So I am asking you to google the information yourself. I don’t understand why you won’t. Please just try and tell me what you think. Google Interview John Hagelin Consciousness.

            Heero Yuy

          • glenbo

            >”each time I try to share them Disqus prevents me from posting.”<
            Yes, I know. Me too. Here's how to do it. Many websites have algorithms that screen hyperlinks. What I do is copy the desired link's URL, paste to Word, add a space after each dot, re-copy, test paste and place a space after the URL to see if it turns blue. If it does not, you can post it. Then I will copy it, and delete any spaces after any dots. Sometimes there are multiple dots, so you have to add a space after each one and test paste to Word to see if it turns blue. When the test paste does not turn blue, you can post it but don't forget to add a space at the very end/after your test paste.

            I found the interview.
            Get back to you later.

          • glenbo

            Okay. I watched the video and checked out his website.
            Sorry, still not convinced an intelligent “creator” is responsible.
            Especially when said “creator” created cancer.

          • Heero_Yuy

            Glenbo

            Thank you so much.

            Then I would also ask you to Google the other things I have asked you, on Wilhelm Reich whale . to on Bechamp vs Pastuer Pdf. On orgon lab . org .

            Thank you friend.

            Heero Yuy

          • glenbo

            Sorry.
            Not convinced God has a hand in anything.
            After all, why would any “creator” create cancer?
            But thanks for trying.
            You gotta do better than that.

          • Heero_Yuy

            Glenbo,

            That doesn’t give me much to work with as far as answering your objections, nor have you given a standard by which I might “do better,” or what that would constitute.

            Cancer is an attempt by the body to heal itself. I would suggest Googling, World Without Cancer, the Vitamin B17 Story PDF. as well as Pleomorphic bacteria Cancer and again if you have not, Pasteur or Bechamp PDF.

            I’m sorry I am not a better help.

            Heero Yuy

          • glenbo

            >”Cancer is an attempt by the body to heal itself.”<
            Umm…Okay…
            Cancer kills.
            God created cancer. Therefore:
            A: God is a poor designer, is uncaring and un-acting, or
            B: There is no God and we are all at the whim of nature.
            In conclusion:
            A: Makes no sense and is un-proven.
            B: Makes perfect sense and backed with science.

          • Heero_Yuy

            Glenbo,

            God is not a poor designer. We have simply eliminated cancer preventative products from our diet, and used damaging medical treqtments on ourselves, and as a consequence, in accordance with natual law, we have reaped the consequences.

            From the Source listed below:

            They (my note: The evil forces , not necessarily Atheists) love (covertly) trashing us and the planet and then seeing us wail about there being no God because of all the wars, disease and death etc. Atheism is the main wall that Big Brother hides behind—if there is no God then there is no Devil, which is his main defence, invisibility. The High priest of Atheism is Richard Dawkins.]

            The Atheism Spiritual Racket: (I don’t thing you are like this personally, but you need to realize what is really going on. Also, much of the text in the original is hyperlinked):

            Google whale . to Atheism Spiritual Racket

            It has been heavily enforced for centuries by killing off the people with shamanic knowledge (shamans, medicine men, native tribes—the purpose of the ‘witch’ purges—good psychics were purged by fast acting cancers in the 90’s (see), and replacing them with people who are under their control eg Robertson, & Billy Graham who was a 33 degree Mason), to cut people off from Higher/Deeper Self (true God), mostly so we will easily worship false covert-Gods such as Allopathy (see: God as Modern Medicine Herbs for cancer), i.e. giving away personal power, and if God doesn’t exist then it is easier for folk to believe the lie that Evil doesn’t exist, and can sell it’s bullshit—how mankind is responsible for ruining the planet. Rather than the truth, it is being ruined by Reptilians/Luciferians.

            Heero Yuy

          • glenbo

            >”God is not a poor designer”<
            Cue cuckoo clock sound byte.

          • Heero_Yuy

            Glenbo,

            I thought you might realize that per Hagelin, universal consciousness and our consciousness is what creates reality. Thus to deny God’s existence is to deny one’s own existence.

            Heero Yuy

          • glenbo

            >”our consciousness is what creates reality.”<
            I disagree.
            Reality, or the real natural world, or nature and natural occurrences created our consciences.
            You have it backwards.
            Conscience cannot create what already exists. It merely acknowledges what is around us.

          • Heero_Yuy

            “Consciousness cannot create what already exists”

            How do you know this? By What Standard?

            “You have it backwards”

            How do you know? by What Standard?”

            Isn’t that what John Hagelin, a Quantum Physacist, states in his video? Do you disagree and if so, why? By What Standard?

            Thank you for talking to me and not making fun of me.

            Heero Yuy

          • glenbo

            Cue cuckoo clock sound byte.

    • Ray Engelke

      Thank you so much for this respons, glenbo

    • Mark Borofsky

      Paglia herself is gay so your stament she probably doesn’t know any gays is rather silly. And he was quoting her on that very comment. She said they all have trauma of some sorts, not o my sexual but family issues as well. And yes, the same theory can be attributed to women who are gay or bisexual.

      • glenbo

        Irrelevant.

  • Mark T

    It seems to me that all children becoming sexually aware would fine sexual touch satisfying. It is just that some have a consciences of right and wrong, where others are more open to experiences. A boy could be sexaully touched by a woman and find it satisfying at the time but feels a great sense of guilt later. Just because a bod enjoyed an older man’s touch without gilt would not mean they are truly gay, but rather just more sexually free.

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