Will God Bless Trump for Moving Our Embassy to Jerusalem?

A picture taken on December 6, 2017 shows a giant US flag screened alongside Israel's national flag by the Jerusalem municipality on the walls of the old city.

By Michael Brown Published on December 6, 2017

Ben Shapiro listed 7 reasons why Trump’s decision to move our embassy to Jerusalem is right. He called it “an act of not only political bravery but moral courage.” But is it an act that God Himself will bless? Is there spiritual significance to this decision as well?

Earlier this year, a pastor asked me if there was any way to get a message to the president. With great passion, he said to me, “During the campaign, Donald Trump promised to move the embassy his first day in office, but he didn’t do it. And when did the protest marches against him begin? His second day in office! He will never see the full blessing of God until he makes good on his promise.”

Others believe that Trump’s decision will prove disastrous. As a headline on the Daily Mail proclaims, “’He’s declaring war on 1.5 billion Muslims’: Trump will recognise Jerusalem as Israel’s capital TODAY despite international fury from the Pope, Britain, Russia, China and Palestinians.” In the words of the Palestinian Authority’s Manuel Hassassian, “He is declaring war in the Middle East, he is declaring war against 1.5 billion Muslims [and] hundreds of millions of Christians that are not going to accept the holy shrines to be totally under the hegemony of Israel.”

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In reality, Trump is not declaring war in the Middle East. He’s not declaring war against 1.5 billion Muslims. And in no way, shape, size or form declaring war on hundreds of millions of Christians. In fact, the very notion that Christians will not accept “the holy shrines” being “totally under the hegemony of Israel” is absolute nonsense.

Political Questions

First, America’s recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital changes nothing on the ground at all, especially when it comes to the Christian holy sites. They’ve been under Israeli hegemony for decades. Second, it is under Jewish hegemony that Middle Eastern Christians have access to these holy sites and freedom to practice their faith. The restrictions generally come under Islamic, not Israeli rule.

Still, the question must be asked: Why the uproar over Jerusalem? Why does the whole world care? Why does the Pope weigh in? Why are Muslim nations in such upheaval? Why are Russia and China concerned? What makes Jerusalem so important?

Jerusalem was never the capital of a Palestinian or Arab state. (For that matter, there was not even a concept of a Palestinian state until the middle of the 20th century. And there was no such thing as a Palestinian people until after the Six Day War in 1967).

The tremendous resistance to the president’s decision gives evidence to the intensity of the spiritual battle over this city.

Every other nation on the planet chooses its capital city. Other nations recognize that city and put their embassies there. Why won’t the rest of the world recognize Jerusalem as Israel’s capital? Why are the embassies located in Tel Aviv rather than Jerusalem?

Jerusalem is the historic capital of the Jewish people, going back to roughly 1,000 BC. Jews face Jerusalem when they pray and synagogues in the West face East. Every year at Passover, the hopeful prayer is recited, “Next year in Jerusalem!” And in terms of functional reality, Jerusalem is the capital of the nation. There’s nothing to discuss or debate. As the President said, that’s reality, plain and simple.

When it comes to the peace process, more than two decades of negotiations have yielded precious little progress. So the idea that recognizing Jerusalem would hurt this process is ludicrous. Instead, if the Palestinians want peace with Israel, they can have wonderful, lasting, prosperous peace — without dividing Jerusalem.

Spiritual Questions

But all these are political questions and issues. My question is spiritual in nature: Will God bless President Trump and the United States for making this bold and courageous move?

I believe He will, for the following reasons.

  1. On doing so the president is blessing Israel. God still blesses those who bless His covenant nation, despite that nation’s sins.
  2. Out of all the cities on the earth, the Bible only calls us to pray for the welfare of Jerusalem (see Psalm 122; Isaiah 62:1-8).
  3. The tremendous resistance to the president’s decision gives evidence to the intensity of the spiritual battle over this city.
  4. There are prophetic scriptures that speak of a Jewish Jerusalem welcoming back the Messiah. So the decision to fortify the unity of the city is in explicit harmony with those Scriptures (see especially Zechariah 12 and 14).

And what about God’s love for the Muslim world? What about justice for the Palestinians?

The answer is simple: If they want to be blessed, they too must recognize the Jewish claim to Jerusalem, a city that they do not need to possess or divide. They don’t need to call for violence and war. Instead, they need to accept that East Jerusalem will not be the capital of a Palestinian state. That working with the Jewish people rather than against them will be in their best interests, too. And that the Jewish people have a massively greater claim to Jerusalem than the Muslims do.

As for President Trump, he is convinced that this formal recognition of Jerusalem will aid and abet the peace process. But even if that is not the case, I truly believe that God will bless him and bless America for making this courageous and righteous decision.

Let’s watch and see in the coming days.

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  • Paul

    It’s about time!!

  • Linda

    I hope you are right. I know about blessing Israel, and I know that Jerusalem is the only city on earth where God’s name dwells, however, I am not aware of any obvious scripture regarding this move. IF the motives for the move are sincere, I agree that it will be a blessing all around.

    • JudgeRight

      Just the opposite. The earthly Jerusalem is called “Sodom and Egypt” in the book of Revelation, see ch 11. With the finished work of Christ on the cross the earthly Jerusalem has lost its meaning for the followers of Christ. In Revelation 3 and 21 the Lord talks about the New Jerusalem, the city of hope and that is NOT the earthly Jerusalem, to which president Trump being surrounded by Jews and Zionist Christians is moving the US embassy to. The Jerusalem Christians care about is “the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God” Rev. 21:10. Read also carefully the book of Hebrews and specifically Heb. 12:22. As I mentioned above the earthly Jerusalem’s significance is clearly implied in Rev. 11. There it is the city where the two end-time prophets and witnesses of God will prophesy, and will be eventually killed, before they are raised: “and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically[b] is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified” — Rev. 11:8. Moving the US embassy to this Jerusalem in recognition of it as the capital of the Jewish (or rather Zionist state, in view that Orthodox Jews disagree with its policies and form of existence) is in fact nothing more than setting the scene for the end times, but not the Lord’s vision and version of these times.

      • stan schmunk

        And Jerusalem has gay pride parades and Tel Aviv markets itself as the gayest city in the world with NYC in second place. That shouldn’t surprise us as the Jews created little houses in Solomon’s temple to house…homosexual prostitutes! The Jews need Christ but our evangelical ‘leaders’ won’t tell them!

        • JudgeRight

          Much of American evangelicalism is traditionally plagued by Christian Zionism. If whoever blesses Israel will be blessed was true America would not be one of the nations in which the law of the land mandates that a man “marry” a man, and call it “freedom” and “equality.” to have an abomination in the eyes of God be the law of the land is not a blessing but a curse to a whole generation.

  • tz1

    Trump also said he would end DACA on day one.
    I’m also waiting for the defunding of Molech – aka Planned Parenthood and their spilling of innocent blood.
    Somehow I have to wonder if the blood of 60 million dead innocents crying out – more every day – is trivial compared to this bit of geographic change.
    But perhaps God will hear and destroy Trump’s enemies. A few Tsunamis and Earthquakes on the west coast would fix a lot of politi-demographic problems. The rest can be fixed from Islamic terror targeted attacks. Perhaps a few of the Supreme court justices will have accidents and be unable to continue serving on the bench. So I hope you are right.

  • Charles Burge

    I would take you to task on point #2. Jeremiah 29:7 says “But seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you into exile, and pray to the Lord on its behalf, for in its welfare you will find your welfare.” No specific city is mentioned explicitly, but rather, several cities in Babylon are implied, since Jeremiah’s letter was written to all of the exiles scattered throughout the region.

    Nonetheless, I think your point #1 is quite valid. I applaud the president’s move.

    • Hebrewhelena

      Yes. The Jews have done this in all the places they have been scattered.

  • Brad Ford

    God ALREADY has blessed Trump!!!!!

  • Brad Ford

    Could this be Trump’s legacy?

  • JudgeRight

    Michael Brown, an otherwise respected Christian apologist and preacher, completely misses the point in his views on Israel. He defends a non-biblical understanding that “Israel” and the Jews as a natural nation still have some separate covenant with God outside of the death and resurrection the Lord Jesus Christ.

    This false teaching is not new, it just comes in the new form of Christian Zionism purported by Brown. Apostle Paul clearly rejects the “judaizing” delusion of the Galatian Christians and specifically rejects the false idea that “whoever blesses Israel will blessed.” The false expectation of “blessing” for blessing (or in the secular Jews own view interpreted as support for their political hegemony and the contemporary state of Israel) is based on a false interpretation of Gen. 12:3. Apostle Paul clearly rejects any such Old Testament interpretation in Galatians 3, where those who are in Christ are heirs of the promise. There is no covenant for the Jew outside the one covenant in Jesus Christ. The earthly Jerusalem has no significance for the Christian, but only for those who are deceived to believe that the political rise of the contemporary state of Israel and the earthly Jerusalem, are fulfillment of biblical prophecy. Yes, these events are indeed but they support the rise of the antichrist to world dominion, not the Second Coming of the Lord. Brown is simply repeating the Jewish nationalist views opposed even by Orthodox Jews. In fact, those who curse the people of God, or the Christians, followers of the Heir of the promise, will be cursed. Although democratic the contemporary leaders of the state of Israel are significantly hostile to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, maybe less overtly than the Muslims, but still are.

    Zionist Christians must go back to their New Testaments and read them carefully so not to fall into the deception of the end times, which will seek to deceive even the elect (and by “elect” I do not mean the natural Jews who reject Jesus Christ).

    • Jesse Mgala

      What about Romans 9-11,sir??? SMH.

      • JudgeRight

        Romans 9-11 is actually the proof that any attempt to describe that Jews, or whichever ethnic group is called with this name today (very detailed post above the incorporation of Edomites as Jews).

        Romans 9:5, “because not all of Israel are Israel.” See here Rom. 9: 6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

        I do not want to continue with the all and plenty arguments that the only promise for the Jew in the New Testament is not found in the Old Testament promises but in the Lord Jesus Christ.

        The only possible reason for somehow swaying for the proper interpretation that there is NO separate covenant for the Jews is Rom. 11:28-29
        28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

        Zionists take this passage to pull the wool over Christians and enforce a non-existing separate covenant for the “special” Jewish people who are non-believers. Nothing can be further from the truth. The proimse is for the sake of the patriarch and the fact of the fleshly Jews unfaithfulness does not make them faithful and saved. This false interpretation is negated in the following verses: where Paul explains that God has arrested ALL into disobedience to show Himself mercifulМ

        30 For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now[l] receive mercy. 32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

        One more argument from Rom. 9:

        26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,

        “The Deliverer will come from Zion,
        he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
        27 “and this will be my covenant with them
        when I take away their sins.”

        Who is the “deliverer from Zion”? Some Jewish “messiah” who will be a Zionist and will service their “special covenant”? Of course not. This quote of the OT points to Jesus Christ. He is the Deliverer from Zion. Only He can “take away their sins.” Animal sacrifices will not do it.

        Any theory pushed by the Zionists and the Zionist Christians that have a special covenant outside faith and submission to the Lordship of Jesus Christ is an antichrist teaching and a mockery of the Gospel.

    • Aliquantillus

      In fact you are the one who is missing the point by spiritualizing the reality of the nation of Israel. While it is true that faithful from the nations have become children of the promise, together with the believers from Israel, this does in no way take away the national promises of God to Israel, which stand forever and are irrevocable. In Jeremiah ch. XXXI it is clearly predicted that the New Covenant is a national covenant with “the house of Israel and the house of Judah” as the text says in Jer. 31:31. The house of Israel is clearly the kingdom of the ten tribes, the house of Judah the kingdom of the two tribes. This text is thus clearly about national Israel, not about the Church. The text continues with the promise that the nation of Israel will not cease to be God’s elected nation before the ordinances of the sun and the moon and the stars will cease (Jer. 31:37). While believers in Christ, Jews as well as Gentiles, nowadays already benefit from some of the blessings of the New Covenant, the national fulfilment of it will be at the Second Coming, when the Messianc Kingdom will be erected and the full national restoration of all Israel will follow, including the building of the End-time Temple described in the final chapters of the Book of Ezechiel (chs. XL-XLVIII).

      Replacement Theology is perhaps the oldest Christian error, which has devastated the Church’s understanding of Holy Scripture.

      • JudgeRight

        What you call “spiritualizing the reality” is called faith in the New Testament. Certainty of the things unseen. Jews have always wanted a political leader who will take their nation to the top of the world ruling over all “goyim.” This was their false expectation when the true Messiah came on earth, and that’s why they crucified Him. What you call Replacement Theology is called also the New Testament. In Ephesians 2-3, only one of many, many passages in the NT, the apostle clearly describes how from the two people, through the broken body of Christ, now they are reconciled, they are one people. But only through Christ.

        Your practicality is actually the denial of spiritual reality witnessed in the NT thought Jewish-type of unbelief.

        All promises for the Jews, as well as for the blessing of all the nations, given starting from Abraham, are fulfilled in the Lord Jesus Christ. That is why we live in a BETTER covenant, the New Covenant sealed with the blood of Jesus.

        The current Christian Zionism is the oldest error of all that have plagued the church — described in the Book of Galatians. There the judaizing heresy is called actually a “curse” because it is a different gospel not the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

      • JudgeRight

        I quote: “While believers in Christ, Jews as well as Gentiles, nowadays already benefit from some of the blessings of the New Covenant, the national fulfilment of it will be at the Second Coming, when the Messianc Kingdom will be erected and the full national restoration of all Israel will follow, including the building of the End-time Temple described in the final chapters of the Book of Ezechiel (chs. XL-XLVIII).”

        This sentence alone contains three fundamental errors. Your interpretation disregards the very essence of why Jesus died and rose again and the fact that we have a New Covenant.

        1) Believers in Christ, be they Jew or Gentile “benefit from SOME of the blessings of the New Covenant”?

        Not “some blessings,” all blessings and hope. There is nothing greater but to be an heir of God in Jesus Christ. It is a hope today but at consumation it will be a hope fulfilled.

        Acts 4:12: And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

        Colossians 1:15 [ The Preeminence of Christ ] He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

        Colossians 1:27 To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

        Jude 1:25 to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

        2) There will be no “national restoration” of Israel.

        Acts 1: 6 So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

        It is a restoration through the Great Commission of Jews and Gentiles through the Gospel of Jesus Christ. This is the OT promise to Abraham that “his seed” [Jesus Christ — see Gal. 3] will be a blessing for all nations. See also Matt. 28:16-18.

        A push for the “national restoration of Israel” goes against the lack of necessity for such clearly described in the NT by the apostles who speak of a new race, a new people, who are “born of the incorruptible seed of Christ.” 1 Peter. Paul’s epistles etc.

        3) The building of the End-time Temple described in the final chapters of the Book of Ezechiel most likely does not refer to the building of a physical temple for the same reason: WE live in the NT!

        The people of God, the believers in Jesus Christ, in whom the Holy Spirit lives are called a temple, building of living stones, 1 Cor. 3:16-17 is only one passage, also 2 Cor. 6:14, 16.

        Ephesians 2: 18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by[e] the Spirit.

        John 2:19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

        Revelation 21:22 And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.

        What purpose will a new physical temple serve according to the NT? To sacrifice animals again? If such temple is built any animal sacrifice will be an abomination since the perfect sacrifice the Son of God, our high priest, was offered for the forgiveness of our sins.

        Hebrews 10:1 [ Christ’s Sacrifice Once for All ] For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near.

        Please, do revise your understanding and teaching as to the fact of Jesus first coming and the NT so you may inherit the blessings when He comes again.

        • Aliquantillus

          All your quoted texts in fact conform my viewpoint, especially the text from Acts 1:6. Christ didn’t dispute that the Kingdom was to be restored to Israel. In fact, this was his mission! Only the times and seasons were in the Hand of the Father, because He only knows when Israel will repent and nationally accept its Messiah.

          The fact that by the Sacrifice of Messiah eternal redemption is obtained once and for all doesn’t deny that sacrificial worship will be restored in the Millennium, which is clearly taught by Ezechiel. For the sacrifices required by the Torah were never instituted in order to obtain eternal redemption by them, but only temporal redemption or forgiveness in the context of the Theocracy of Israel.

          But this is also confirmed by the Epistle to the Hebrews, which teaches that the sacrifices and the institutions of the Torah will go on “until the time of the reformation” (Hebr. 9:10), which is explained in :11 of the same chapter as the intoduction of the goods of the perfect and definitive tabernacle, “not of this building”, meaning not of this creation, but of the New Creation which will start after the Millennium, i.e. after the temporal phase of the Kingdom. And this is exactly the teaching of Christ himself in Mt. 5:17-19, where he says that all the commandments and distinctions of the Torah remain intact “till heaven and earth pass away”.

          The entire Bible is basically about Israel and the Messianic Kingdom. The “Church” as a distinct entity only comes into play when national Israel doesn’t fulfil its calling to recognize its Messiah. If Israel had accepted Jesus Christ there never would have been a distinct “Church era”, for the Kingdom and the national restoration would have come.

          Until the time, however, that Israel is fully restored, there is a distinct “Church” or better “Assembly of Messiah”, which partakes of the eternal blessings of the New Covenant, not however of the temporal blessings. These are reserved for the time of Israel’s national restoration when the Jewish nation will be elevated above all peoples and become their light, when the Torah wil go out from Zion and many nations will go up to Jerusalem:

          “And it shall come to pass that everyone that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem [in the end-time wars described by the prophet] shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of Sukkot [i.e. tabernacles]. […] In that day shall there be upons the bells of the horses: ‘Holiness unto the LORD; and the pots in the LORD’s House [i.e. the Temple] shall be like the bowls before the Altar. Yea every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein.” (Zechariah 14:16, 20-21).

          This is a clear and unambiguous prophetic prediction about the coming Millennnial Kingdom, with a restored nation of Israel, a restored Temple worship, and Gentiles who receive the blessings of this Kingdom.

          • JudgeRight

            I am glad that you bring up Acts 1:6, so I can explain. “It is not for you to know times and SEASONS.” The emphasis here is on “seasons.” Jesus’ disciples were obviously stuck with their old understanding of the restoration of Israel as the restoration of their nation. They were still nationalistic in their expectations and understanding of salvation. Proof of that is the following works of the Holy spirit throughout Acts which were necessary to emphasize the essence of the Great Commission in Matt. 28. Peter in Cornelius’ house is one — the apostle had to overcome his Jewish-supremacy prejudice by mighty visions and seeing the grace of God being given to the Gentiles (faith and baptism in the Holy Spirit). It took further events for the early Jewish church to grasp that a new nation has been born, the nation of those born of God through the Holy Spirit and faith in Jesus Christ. A new race of both Jew and Gentile, believers in Jesus. Thus the new nation of believers IS in fact the restoration of the nation of “Israel.” It is a NEW SEASON which, at the time was not of the confused disciples to know.

            You completely ignore my question in the previous post: WHAT WILL BE THE PURPOSE of the new (old) restored Temple in your plan? What form of worship will be happening there?

            I quote you again, because this is important to understand the Zionist false messianic “hope” in denial of the true hope in Jesus Christ:

            “This is a clear and unambiguous prophetic prediction about the coming Millennnial Kingdom, with a restored nation of Israel, a restored Temple worship, and Gentiles who receive the blessings of this Kingdom.”

            In the picture you describe natural Israel, the “true people of God,” will be restored and the Gentiles will be gleaning from the “great destiny” of the natural Jews. Who, by the way, will have been restored due to some form of separate “covenant” based on some ambiguous and Old-Testament-based interpretation of God’s faithfulness. Will their restoration entail faith and repentance in Christ? Not very clearly, but rather not, since they implicitly have their own covenant of faithfulness. The nations will rely on THAT non-Christ covenant to be blessed.

            Such picture, typical of Christian Zionism, fully follows the Jewish false narrative that they are the chosen people who must play a historical role in the world and the history of man. That was true until Jesus Christ. Since Him we live a new era. A new “season.” The Zionist narrative completely excludes the work on the cross and the perfect sacrifice of the High Priest, Jesus Christ Who died for Jew and Gentile alike.

            The NT and Christian view is that the people of God are those people, first Jew then Gentile, who are born of faith in Jesus Christ as there is no other way to God. I need not quote all the statements that support this teaching, including Christ’s own words. This NT view is unacceptable to Jewish supremacists, or maybe “nationalists” to use a bit softer term, who want to see the fulfillment of THEIR OWN messianic vision, which DOES NOT include Jesus Christ neither a blessing for other nations. Even early Christian Jews had a difficult time aligning their thinking with the “SEASON” when the Gentiles and Jews would be children of God, if they are born again in Christ.

            Hence the idea of some “Judeo-Christian” faith is an oxymoron.

          • Aliquantillus

            You are diverging from the subject. I do not discuss with Antisemites.

          • JudgeRight

            Great. Blank accusations [“it doesn’t make sense”, “diverging”], typical unsupported and dramatic character attacks, [“you’re are an antisemite”], and cutting off conversation [“I do not discuss with antisemites.”]

            I couldn’t care less if you think that I am a pro-semite or antisemite and you know well that I am spot on the subject.

            My sincere suggestion to you is to honestly review what I wrote, check with your NT and your Bible, and decide for yourself, asking God to guide you. Then, hopefully it will all begin to make sense.

          • Aliquantillus

            Ephesians ch. II clearly demonstrates that the Gentile believers have become incorporated in Israel, i.e. the Jewish Remnant, not the other way round. And the “Better Covenant” is not a denial of the Torah, but its intensification: “This is the covenant which I will make with the House of Israel; After those days, says the LORD, I will put my Torah in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people”. This intensification is in line with the instructions of Messiah in the Gospels and is again a clear prediction that Israel will be fully restored, and that the Torah will be fully observed in the Kingdom Age. It goes against all exegetical rules to spiritualize texts like these and apply them to a Gentile Church.

            The Body of Messiah lives in the anticipation of the coming Kingdom, which will be erected at the Second Coming. This anticipation by faith is the way it participates in the New Covenant founded in the Blood of Messiah.

            There is no conflict between the Tanach texts which unequivocally predict the restoration of Israel and the NT, just as there is no conflict between sacrificial worship in the Temple and the once-and-for-all Sacrifice of Messiah. In a similar there is no conflict between this once-and-for-all Sacrifice and the repetitious nature of the Eucharist.

            You are constantly interpreting the text of the Tanach, and consequently of the NT, in a forced manner, which is completely contrary to their obvious meaning. The Book of Galatians is not contrary to the Torah or the Tanach. If it were so, this would deligitimize the Apostle Paul as a faithful witness of God’s revelation, just as it would deligitimize Jesus as Messiah if he had taught things contrary to the Torah. He never did. But Christian theologians do. Jesus clearly commands to keep all the Torah (in Mt. 5:19).

            Paul in Galatians only turns against those who would make circumcision and legal conversion to Judaism the means of eternal justification. And that’s also the point of Acts ch. XV.

          • JudgeRight

            The restoration of Israel in the NT consists in the dissolution of its nationalistic and supremacists ambitions into the new people of God, if so they choose to accept [the Lordship of Jesus].

            For the sake of common understating let me state here that we may read the same texts but their interpretation is diametrically opposite. You see the NT as an enhancement of the OT and the nationalistic ideas of the Jews as the “chosen people” regardless of Christ (actually this is an enhancement of Judaism, which barely cares about OT anymore). I see the NT as a fulfillment of the law by faith in Christ, which was the promise given to Abraham.

            Ephesians 2 does not dissolve the Gentile believers into the “superior destiny” of Israel. Just the opposite. Ephesians 2-3 nullifies any “manifest destiny” for the nation of Israel as a former OT people of God. It is a reconciliation between the difference of Jew and Gentile in Jesus Christ. Will quote here for ease of access:

            11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. (Eph. 2:11-18)

            Mind verse 16 – there is no submission of the Gentile Christian identity into Israelite superior vision and covenant. Both are “equalized” through the reconciliation done by Christ on the cross. Verse 17 clearly means that the one covenant in Christ is valid for “both” meaning Jew and Gentile. As the Gentile must repent and believe in Christ to join the new people, so does the Jew.

            Jesus will not bring the fulfillment of God’s promise to Israel, as you state. Jesus has already fulfilled God’s promise to Israel, which actually is dissolved in the promise to Abraham. God’s promise to Israel was fulfilled when Jesus came to their nation and only handful recognized Him and accepted Him. Jesus’ promise to Abraham that as a man of faith, his “offspring” (which is Christ, Gal. 3), will be a blessing to all nations.

            The biblical consistency between OT and NT is maintained not by insisting that the OT dictates how we should interpret the NT (in your third and fourth paragraph), but just the opposite, by seeing the law in the light of the cross. The nation of Israel is not the goal of the promise. The nations of the world are, and Israel was to bring salvation to them not through its own supremacy but by its humility. However, when the Messiah came they did not recognize Him for two related reasons 1) they were too stuck on their supremacy to other nations by being the chosen people; 2) they had departed from their own law and Moses, that’s why they did not recognize Jesus as the Messiah (John 1:17; 5:45-46). The third reason is found in Romans 11:31 — God hardened all, Jew and Gentile, to show Himself merciful and so that no one will boast before Him with on his own merit (Eph. 2:9).

            The book of Galatians clearly presents the OT law as an intermediate “guardian” of the promise until the time of faith in Jesus Christ.

            19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary…

            21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

            The law was not contrary to the promise, but the coming of the offspring [Christ] certainly made faith the way to reconciliation with God not the law. Even if you insist that in v. 22 the promise of faith relates only to Gentiles, because the Jews have their own covenant with God (which is your main thesis) then the following verses show even more clearly that the Jew has to repent and believe in Christ as much as the Gentile:

            25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave[g] nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

            To be heirs to the promise you must be Abraham’s offspring. To be Abraham’s offspring you must be in Christ. Jew and Gentile and there is no difference any longer. Jews who are not in Christ are NOT heirs of the promise. Natural anti-Christ Israel has nothing to offer to the world, besides their own unbelief (of course, along with Gentile unbelievers).

            Finally, your statement that there is no contradiction between a renewed temple worship (new building in Jerusalem) and the high priesthood of Christ is a fallacy. You cannot have a new temple worship of OT style that will sacrifice animals given the fact of Jesus’ perfect sacrifice. Any such temple “sacrifice” is a mockery of the sacrifice of Jesus and an abomination. Need not quote here the whole book of Hebrews.

            5 Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said,

            “Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired,
            but a body have you prepared for me;
            6 in burnt offerings and sin offerings
            you have taken no pleasure.
            7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come to do your will, O God,
            as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.’”
            8 When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), 9 then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. (Heb. 10:5-9)

            Christ’s supreme high priesthood speaks of eternal and better things, and a temple that is not earthly (this in response to your political vision of Israel’s worldwide leadership)

            Hebrews 9:11 [ Redemption Through the Blood of Christ ] But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation).

            This also answers your diminishing of the essence of the eternal inheritance in Christ by turning it into a world-like political order and by calling belief in the eternal and invisible, but soon to be manifested Kingdom, “spiritualizing.” The new earth and the new heaven is actually literal interpretation of the Bible but for those who want the Zionist vision it is too unreal and “spiritual.”

            No need to continue this argument. We will not change our respective fundamental lines of interpretation. I insist that yours is completely opposite to the truth we see by the Holy Spirit in the New Testament and the testimony of our Lord Jesus Christ.

          • Aliquantillus

            The dissolution of the nationality of the Jews is completely contrary to the promises of God and a typical error of Replacement Theology, the consequences of which are clearly antisemitic. God’s promises to the literal nation of Israel include its national restoration and all the prophets testify to that. For instance:

            And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children’s children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever. Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.” (Ez. 37:25-28)

            The sanctuary mentioned here is described in detail chs. XL-XLVIII of the same prophecy.

            As to your Ephesians text, the abolishment of the commandments mentioned there is not about the commandments of the Torah, but, literally interpreted, of the “dogmatic regulations” which were regarded necessary by the Sages to completely separate Jews and Gentiles before the Advent of Messiah. These regulations were no longer necessary in the Body of Messiah, because the believing Gentiles had renounced their idolatry and were incorporated into the House of Israel by their faith. Therefore it became permissible, for instance, for Jews and Gentiles to eat together and have common meals expressing their unity in Messiah.

            The text concerning sacrifices and offering not willed by God in Hebrews ch. X should be carefully interpreted, because it is a quotation from Ps. XL, when the Torah and sacrificial worship were indisputably in force. This text therefore doesn’t deny the validity of ongoing sacrificial worship, but only states that, ultimately, everything is about the direction of our hearts and minds. The Apostle uses this text to point to the definitive sacrifice of Messiah. We have another example of this relativizing in Ps. LI, where David says: “thou desirest not sacrifice, else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise” (Ps. 51:16-17). But notice that this Psalm ends with mentioning the buikling of Zion and Jerusalem, and the sacrificial worship to be brought there: “Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt-offering and whole burnt-offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar”. So this relativizing of sacrificial worship is itself also relativized. Its main point is simply to emphasize that worship must be free of hypocrisy and cannot remain only an external act. Our hearts and minds have be involved in it.

            As to Hebrews 10:9 saying that “the first is done away in order to establish the second”, you read too much in this text. It doesn’t imply that sacrificial worship simply ceased after the Sacrifice of the Cross, but that the Sacrifice of the Cross of Messiah laid the foundations for a new order of things. We know that in the New Creation after the Millennium animal sacrifices will no longer be needed because all things will have reached their ultimate perfection. But this ultimate perfection is not immediately obtained. This perfection will only be gradually realized. First, by the establishment of the Assembly of Messiah, leading up to the restoration of all Israel and the Millennial Kingdom, and, finally, by the New Creation and the cessation of sacrificial worship. All these are the effects of the Sacrifice of Messiah, but historically they are only gradually effectuated.

            We should remember that the Apostles themselves took part in sacrificial worship and visited the Temple. There’s no reason to suppose e.g. that they ceased to the bring the Passover lambs, which is a very severe obligation of the Torah. And we see that in the Temple of Ezechiel even sin sacrifices will be offered (in Ez. ch. XLVIII). If one reads about all the technical details of Ezechiel’s Temple, it is very clear that these can in no way be spiritualized or allegorized away. And therefore the only consistent way to interpret the text of the Epistle Hebrews is to interpret it in line with the preceding revelations, including the Prophecy of Ezechiel.

            In the time before Messiah, the sacrifices of the Torah pointed toward his final and ultimate sacrifice. In the Millennial Kingdom the sacrifices of the future Temple will point back to Messiah’s sacrifice. In both cases the animal sacrifices sacramentally represent Messiah’s sacrifice.

          • JudgeRight

            Here I must address your statement that the seeking of dissolution of Jewish “nationality” is the source of anti-semtism. One, you quote me wrongly: I said dissolution of Jewish “nationalism.” Secondly, the propaganda effort by Zionist to call “antisemitism” any attempt to deny their manifest destiny supermacism is just that — a propaganda trick. I am not concerned with the Jewish national efforts, although they do play a role in explaining theology and end times; after all God is the God of history and the nations. However, I am more concerned with Zionist and Jewish attempts to pervert the New Testament to mean that Christians’ main goal is not to evangelize the Jew and the Gentile, but to support the Jewish nationalism by some disguised double covenant theory.

            There is only one covenant and one perfect sacrifice — that of the Lord Jesus Christ. This is the eternal covenant for all who accept it Jew and Gentile. There is no eternal covenant for a special status of the nation of the Jews outside of the eternal covenant and high priesthood of Jesus Christ.

            I will say only this the animal sacrifice in the new temple “pointing back” to the Messiah is in fact the abomination that causes desolation. It is an abomination before God to sacrifice animals in reminiscence of the “things to come,” because that was the purpose of those animal sacrifices, when the things have come already, and Christ has completed His mission. Remember the words “it is finished” on the cross. It is a mockery of Chris’t sacrifice to rebuild a physical temple when He himself is the temple and so are those in whom by faith lives the Holy Spirit. The cessation of the sacrifice in the Jewish temple happened when their Temple was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD. I wonder why if the Jews were so beloved God allowed their temple to be destroyed? There is no need for an earthly physical temple made of stone if the temple of God is the people of God, those born from above. The only true chance for the Jew back then and today is to repent of their sin, and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. There is no other messiah, and Jews (or Gentiles) cannot find salvation anywhere else.

          • davidrev17

            “Take from them silver and gold, and make a crown, and set it on the head of Joshua [Hebrew = Yeshua] the son of Jehozadak, the high priest. And say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord of hosts, “Behold, the man whose name is the Branch: for he shall branch out from his place, and he shall build the temple of the Lord. It is he who shall build the temple of the Lord and shall bear royal honor, and shall sit and rule on his throne. And there shall be a priest on his throne, and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.”’ And the crown shall be in the temple of the Lord as a reminder to Helem, Tobijah, Jedaiah, and Hen the son of Zephaniah.“ And those who are far off shall come and help to build the temple of the Lord. And you shall know that the Lord of hosts has sent me to you. And this shall come to pass, if you will diligently obey the voice of the Lord your God.” (Zechariah 6:11-15)

            Wow! Notice the powerfully compelling symbolism inherent in this vision: a “Man, whose name is the Branch” – or Messiah, e.g., Isaiah 11:1-9; Jeremiah 23:5-8 – who’s also granted the duties and responsibilities of functioning as a “Priestly/King,” in this physical “temple of Yahweh” some day, “seated, and ruling upon a throne,” and whose physical location must necessarily be in Jerusalem??

            These events have never taken place before; and I sure can’t find even the slightest illustration, or inference in this text, to any abominable activity taking place here by the Messiah himself, or anyone else, Can you?

            And notice how verse 15 states, that all of this activity is obviously contingent upon the wholehearted obedience of the Jewish people. Well, this sure ain’t the situation in modern-day Israel! But what if something really BIG does take place, of which has the potential to profoundly “open the hearts & eyes” of these still largely rebellious, spiritually blinded people in Israel – as well as those Jewish individuals scattered throughout planet earth – that brings them to their knees, in genuine repentance before the Lord?? (i.e., Revelation 1:7; Zechariah 12:10-14)

            What if these still unfulfilled “times” above, represent the future “days” to which Jesus was referring as he wept over Jerusalem; while prophesying their utter destruction in the near future (70 AD) – yet still strangely assures them that “YOU WILL NOT SEE ME AGAIN UNTIL YOU SAY…”?? Clearly the Jewish people have to be back in their land, as well as retaining some control over the city of Jerusalem, in order for these still unfulfilled events to even have a chance at taking place? Or was the omniscient, sovereign “Spirit of Truth” Himself, just mistaken about what He’s spoken in His Holy Word?

            ☆ ☆ ☆

            “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! See, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you, that you will not see me again, until you [Jewish people & religious leaders] say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’” (Matthew 23:37-39)

          • JudgeRight

            Quotes from you, then comments from me:

            1) “What if these still unfulfilled “times” above, represent the future “days” to which Jesus was referring as he wept over Jerusalem; while prophesying their utter destruction in the near future (70 AD) – yet assures them almost simultaneously, that “YOU WILL NOT SEE ME AGAIN UNTIL YOU SAY…”?? Clearly the Jewish people have to be back in their land, as well as retaining some control over the city of Jerusalem, in order for these still unfulfilled events to even have a chance of taking place? Or was the omniscient, sovereign “Spirit of Truth” Himself, simply mistaken about what He’s spoken in His Holy Word?”

            Comment: Times past and times current. The temple of the Lord is the sum of believers in Him through His Son Jesus Christ. No other temple needed. God lives through His Spirit in the believer and respectively in His people who are also called “church” somewhat confusing the issue.

            “You will not see me again until you say…” is addressed at the Jews. They will not see Christ for who He is until they humble themselves and say that He is blessed, because He comes in the name of the Lord. Jesus prophesies the Jews spiritual blindness. They can regain their status of God’s people as they repent and believe in Christ. Until then they are not seeing anything.

            Salvation is from the Jews (Jn 4:22) but the coming of Christ made worship to be available not only at the physical temple, which God even asked David what he was thinking to build a place for God to inhabit since the heavens are His throne and the earth is His footstool. A time is coming when true worshipers will worship in spirit and in truth, not only in Jerusalem. There will be no return form the standard. The Jews wanted the temple because it symbolized their national identity but not the true worship of God. that’s why Jesus argued with them

            John 2:20 The Jews then said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?” He did, He spoke of his broken and resurrected body. That’s where God lives. Not in man-made temples. Thus in NT we have two temples: 1) the temple of God — the believer and the temple of the corporate people of God, followers of Jesus; 2) the temple which is the Lamb Himself, see Revelation.

            I am skipping Scripture references for expedience. Available upon request.

            Just one passage as an illustration and inspiration:

            22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” 25 The woman said to him, “I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things.” 26 Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am he.” (John 4:22-26)

            Welcome to the NT and our Lord’s perfect and saving sacrifice.

          • davidrev17

            “No other [physical Jerusalem] temple is needed.” Wow!

            Yet since “context always determines meaning,” please demonstrate the biblical context foundational to such personal, “eisegetically” contrived declarations like you just made; when in fact, the very “context” of this (Zechariah 6:11-15) passage, literally demands that such a physical Jerusalem Temple be built someday – whose historical fulfillment will indeed be Divinely choreographaed by the Messiah himself.

            Does the plain teaching of the Word of God mean anything to you at all? Or do you just ignore whole-chunks of Holy Scripture of which demolish, or dismantle, your cherished interpretations?

            Why on earth (or heaven for that matter) would such obvious texts be included in the inerrant Word of God, if there was NO purpose or meaning undergirding such passages – whose historical application strongly infers a literal, thus inexorable fulfillment in time-space-dimension history someday, uniquely associated with the “return” (or “second coming”/Hebrews 9:28 etc.) to planet earth? You know, just like the multiplied dozens of OT prophecies that were literally fulfilled during Messiah Yeshua’s first advent. (Incidentally, there were seven [7] specific OT prophecies fulfilled in the life of Judas alone, re: his betrayal/selling-out of Israel’s Messiah!) After all, Yahweh is timeless, transcendent, eternal etc.

            You also made the same bizarre “eisegetical” declaration to me, in spite of the plain teaching in the OT, where national Israel is concerned – meaning Israel’s being covenantally referred to as the [now divorced] “wife of Yahweh” (e.g., Jeremiah 3:1, 8, 14); yet whose marital status of ultimate “restoration” someday future, is also plainly/clearly taught in OT Scripture.

            And notice carefully, the very “context” in which the following Hosea chapter two passage (in its entirety too) is both UNilaterally & UNconditionally premised, or framed, by the omnipotent/omniscient Yahweh – as in those ubiquitous “I WILL” statements unique to the New Covenant language of Jeremiah 31:31-37, or Hebrews 8 – in spite of Israel’s historically consistent sinful rebellion & spiritual harlotry…right up until the present hour:

            “…And I WILL BETROTH YOU [ISRAEL] TO ME FOREVER. I WILL BETROTH you to me in righteousness and in justice, in steadfast love and in mercy. I WILL BETROTH you to me in faithfulness. And you shall know the Lord” (Hosea 2:19-20/ESV, emphasis added).

            What on earth could the eternal Yahweh possibly mean in this particular “context”?? And please don’t forget the spiritually noxious, horrendously “Laodicean” condition in which His 20th/21st-century NT “Bride” has been tragically mired for decades now, throughout most of the West!

            Just how could WE in the NT Church, or “ekklesia” at this hour, be considered (by our Heavenly Father and/or the “Bridegroom”) to be any more righteous, privileged, distinguished, or morally desirable, than the wholly secularized nation of Israel IS right now – when OUR (the NT “Bride’s”) morally reprobate condition almost perfectly reflects that of national/political Israel? For Pete’s sake: the so-called professing Church in America, has since become virtually indistinguishable from its surrounding culture, or “this-worldly” system!

          • JudgeRight

            The falling away of the “church” in America and worldwide is a fact. That fact does not negate the Scriptures about the church. The answer is not returning to the OT but understanding the NT. There is a remnant. The falling away of the church does not justify judaizing error or Zionism.

            Therefore I repeat. There is no need, or a Scriptural teaching, that a man-made temple in the earthly Jerusalem is of any significance or pleasure to God or even in His plans.

            Here are scriptures from the NT in proof that no temple in Jeruslem is needed in the era of the NT. Some of these NT verses have references in the OT I have skipped that for expedience. Remember we live in a better covenant. All Scrpiture is interpreted by the cross and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

            I have added my brief comments prior to the verse or group of verses commented on.

            1 Corinthians 6:19-20
            Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

            Matthew 12:6 I tell you, something greater than the temple is here.

            Matthew 26:61 and said, “This man said, ‘I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to rebuild it in three days.’”

            Matthew 27:40 and saying, “You who would destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, save yourself! If you are the Son of God, come down from the cross.”

            Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple
            Mark 13:1-3 And as he came out of the temple, one of his disciples said to him, “Look, Teacher, what wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings!” 2 And Jesus said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? There will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”

            Mark 14:58 “We heard him say, ‘I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and in three days I will build another, not made with hands.’”

            Mark 15:29 And those who passed by derided him, wagging their heads and saying, “Aha! You who would destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days.


            Mark 15:38 And the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom.

            Acts 17:24 The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man.

            1 Corinthians 3:16 Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?

            1 Corinthians 3:17 If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him. For God’s temple is holy, and you are that temple.

            1 Corinthians 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own…

            2 Corinthians 6:14 [ The Temple of the Living God ] Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?

            2 Corinthians 6:16 What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

            Ephesians 2:20-22
            19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens,[d] but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by[e] the Spirit.


            Revelation 11:19 Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple.

            Revelation 3:12 The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God.

            [THE LAMB IS THE TEMPLE]
            Revelation 21:22 And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.

            [BONUS VERSE]
            2 Thessalonians 2
            11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

          • davidrev17

            “Therefore I repeat. There is no need, or a Scriptural teaching, that a man-made temple in the earthly Jerusalem is of any significance or pleasure to God or even in His plans.”

            If what you say is biblically accurate, thus true, then WHY is that passage even recorded in Scripture in the first place – particularly when it states that Israel’s Messiah will himself, be choreographing all of this activity subsequent to his “second coming”?

            And one more question: given that roughly 1-of-every-25 verses in the NT speaks about Israel’s Mashiach returning a “second time” to establish His 1,000-year Millenial Kingdom, whose headquarters will no doubt be in Jerusalem – that’s some 320 verses, out of the almost 8,000 verses in the Greek NT – do you believe this to be true, thus an imminent aspect of human history; seeing as though I don’t recall reading anything from you, where all of this biblical prophecy is concerned?

            Yes, or no please, and why?

            And please remember: the OT as well contains scores of emphatic, crystal-clear references to the existence of this outward/physical Kingdom of God, one day being established on earth – of which is beautifully consistent with the UNilateral, UNconditional stipulations made by Yahweh, to David, aka the “Davidic Covenant.” (i.e., 2 Samuel 7:1-17; reaffirmed by Gabriel to Miriam, in Luke 1:26-33)

          • JudgeRight

            One fundamental mistake you make is that somehow you mechanically divide OT Israel the OT Jews from “the church.”
            The way Christian Zionism exploits the so called “replacement theology,” which is in fact the NT theology, is by making this artificial division of God’s people.

            Even if you do not overtly support a dual covenant, which is a massive blasphemy and rejection of Jesus Christ, and if you support “dual” people of God in the New Testament, Christians and non-believing Jews who are somehow still blessed due to their ethnic origins, you in fact support a dual covenant.

            There is only ONE people of God, those who are heirs of Abraham. Galatians 3. Under the OT the Israelites, or the house of Jacob, also later known as Jews from the kingdom of Judah, or sometimes Hebrews, from Abrham’s oririgins from Hebron, all synonyms as Paul explains, were the people of God. Among the ethnic people of God not all were people of God due to reasons explained before, but at least all were formed as a nation under the law of Moses.

            That law’s presupposes was to expose sin so in the context of the Abrahamic covenant and promise the Jews would expect a Savior.

            When Jesus came to His own, they did not recognize Him. Due to their national reasons and due to the nature of sin, not only of Jews but of all mankind.

            By their crucifixion of Jesus, rejecting the very Savior of whom Moses wrote, the Jews, rejected the very God who had made them His people. They did by way of Roman proxy death penalty. Romans represented the Gentiles, who also had a role in the crucifixion of the Messiah, but a secondary one. That’s why the Jews are guilty of the crucifixion but the Romans, i.e. the Gentiles are, too.

            During the ministry, and death and resurrection of Jesus, He started a new people, a new race, that of believers in Him. First the Jews. He was sent to the Jews, because “salvation is from the Jews.” So yes, Jews were privileged as salvation came to them first. But only to those who believed in Him. The people of God were not only those who were just waiting for the Messiah to come but those who were eagerly waiting and when He came recognized him.

            The early followers and the apostles were all Jews. The early NT people of God were Jewish believers. Then they were in shock when their faith in the Messiah required them to go to the nations and preach the good news of salvation to the Gentiles as well! That was a big hit to Jewish national feelings and religious. Yet they obeyed the plan and the commandment of God and preached Christ. Many gentiles believed, without the law, in Jesus.

            All this is to say that the people of God in the NT are not “the Christians and our non-believing brothers the Jews.” There is only one people of God, a house of Jacob, those who are born of the promise. If you accept otherwise you inevitably fall into the less implicit false teaching of the dual covenant.

            The church did not replace the people of God. The church is the natural continuation of the people of God only born from the blood of Jesus and faith in Him.

            The anticipated, but not recognized, arrival and ministry of Jesus Christ changed everything. Those who reject God, reject Jesus Christ. Those who reject Jesus Christ are not the people of God, and to call them the people of God is absurd. Non-believing Jews (and Gentiles) will not be the people of God until they accept him and ask forgiveness for their sins.

          • Aliquantillus

            You are imposing your own theological view on Scripture instead of letting Scripture speak for itself. You in fact deny the inspiration of the Prophets who umambiguously predict the national restoration of Israel, in particular the Prophet Ezechiel.

            Faithful theological exposition of Scripture must always adhere to the axiom that later revelation is to be interpreted in harmony with earlier revelation, and that earlier revelation cannot be overthrown by a later revelation. Otherwise God would simply be utterly untrustworthy.

            Your spiritualizing approach is simply unsustainable in the light of the prophecies of Ezechiel concerning the national resurrection of Israel and the Millennial Temple as found in chs. XL-XLVIII.

            You pit texts against each other which are in fact in complete harmony. Of course Jesus is the only Messiah and redemption is always through him. But this redemption does not only extend to individual redemption but also the national redemption of Israel, the nation that in the future will accept Jesus as its King Messiah.

            Why was the Temple destroyed? Because the nation of Israel didn’t accept Jesus during his life here on earth, and refused to repent during the timeframe of the Book of Acts. Thus they rejected the National Kingdom Offer, that started with the ministry of the forerunner, John the Baptist, and which came to a provisional end in Acts 28:25-31 by the verdict of St. Paul in these verses. But this end was only provisional, for the promises of God, including the explicitly national promises made to Israel, are irrevocable. So God will resume his dealings with national Israel in the end-time, and at that time they will ultimately repent and accept Jesus as their national Messiah when he returns, and enter the Kingdom Age.

            Yea, and when this happens the Nation of Israel will be elevated above all nations, and the glory of the LORD will return to Jerusalem, His resting place, as witnessed by all the Prophets, through Messiah Jesus, who will in God’s Name and authority reign on earth as King of kings and Lord of lords.

            The abomination of the desolation is the desecration of the holy place which will happen in the time of Antichrist, in the crisis leading up to the Millennium. Paul refers to this crisis as the coming of the man of sin, whom he terms “the Lawless one”, which actually means the man without Torah or the Torah-less one, i.e. the person who will be the end-result of the principle of iniquity which is already operative now (cf. II Thessalonians ch. II). This principle of iniquity is literally translated the principle of lawlessness, which again means the principle of Torah-lessness, and thus points to the ever increasing rejection of the Torah. This ever-increasing rejection of the Torah has made history in official Christianity, which first rejected the ritual laws and nowadays rejects also the moral laws of the Torah, and thus has developed to complete lawlessness — and, consequently will become apostate and join the Antichrist. Also the Apostle St. John testifies to this when he defines sin as transgression of the Torah: “Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the Torah, for sin is the transgression of the Torah” (I Jn. 3:4).

            The Lord Jesus Christ refers to this crisis before the Millennium as the “Great Tribulation”, and warns his disciples about it that they who will experience it should flee and pray that their flight be not in the winter or on the Sabbath day (Mt. 24:20), which is another indication of the enduring validity of the Torah, confirmed by Apoc. 12:17, where we find a faithful Jewish remnant, of which it is said that it is the remnant of the woman’s seed, “which keep the commandments of God (i.e. the Torah) and have the testimony of Jesus Christ”. The woman here is clearly a symbol of national Israel which brings forth the man child, i.e. Messiah (Apoc. 12:5).

            Of course there is a need for a physical Temple in the Messianic Kingdom. The public rule of God on earth in a theocracry requires a royal court and etiquette and this is what the Temple and sacrificial worship essentially is.

            What was finished on the Cross is not the Torah, but the sufferings of Messiah, which are once-and-for-all-time. There’s only one sacrifice of Messiah, and this sacrifice needs no repetition. Its effects are full all time and even for eternity. Only this sacrifice guarantees our entrance into the World to Come, i.e. the new and eternal creation of the new heavens and earth. But before that, in the earthly situation of the Millennium, when many people will still be in their mortal bodies, sacrfices will be necessary, including sacrifices for sin as mentioned in Ezechiel ch. XLIV, where it is said of the levitical priests of the future Temple: “They shall eat the meat-offering, and the sin-offering, and the trespass-offering, and every dedicated thing in Israel shall be their’s”. No way that this saying can be spiritualized or allogorized away. It is even confirmed that the priests will be of the sacred lineage of Zadok (Ez. 40:46; 43:19).

            There is no conflict between these promises and the unique and all-sufficient nature of Messiah’s sacrifice, unless in a wooden theology. The sin offerings of the Temple don’t guarantee eternal salvation, but only forgiveness during this earthly life in a situation when there is a theocracy. Only Messiah’s sacrifice has the power to give us eternal forgiveness and eternal life. And the limited power of forgiveness that is in the sacrificial system of the Temple ultimately derives all its force from the merits of Messiah and his sacrifice. For all these sacrifices are limited participations and expressions of the one great sacrifice, and they distribute some of the graces contained in it.

          • stan schmunk

            What you are saying goes far beyond the Dispensationalism in which I was raised and is blatant heresy. The promise of the temple in Ezekiel was made to the returning exiles from Babylon and was conditional, based on their obedience. Ezekiel 43: 9-11 Ezra and Nehemiah tell how they responded. The story of Israel is the story of sin abounding and grace abounding still more. Jesus became our Temple. And Abraham saw this from afar. The one to whom the promise was made was looking for a heavenly city, NOT an earthly one! And yet we’re focusing on this evil earthly city! Any Jew right now can inherit his place in the new heaven, new earth and NEW JERUSALEM by confessing Christ. Why aren’t we focusing on that and evangelizing the Arab people? Do you realize that according to Scriptures the Arab Christians in Israel are the true Jews while the unbelieving Jews are not?

          • Aliquantillus

            You are just an antisemitic jerk of the worst kind. Arabs being Jews, fi donc!

          • JudgeRight

            If you are a Christian why do you believe in anti-semitism but no in “anti-Christianism”? Christians are statistically proved to be the most persecuted group in history and including contemporary history. Why do you care more about those who actually persecute Christians or use blindsided Zionist Christians for their political purposes but care so little of those of our brothers who unjustly suffer for their faith?

          • Aliquantillus

            My answer to this is simply that what the Christians during the course their history have done to the Jews is far worse. For more than 1700 years Jewish communities in “Christian” Europe have persecuted, harrassessed, banned, and killed the Jews in their midst, now here then there.

            And speaking about a propaganda machine, historically there has never been a more efficient propaganda machine than Christian Antisemitism based on Replacement Theology.

            In general, your evaluation of Jewish hatred against Christianity is very exaggarated. Nowadays, for instance, there is no freedom of religion in the entire Arab world, and the only place in the Middle East where Christians actually have religious rights is in the State of Israel.

            But to give a more to the point answer to your question, I would say: Was it not our Master and Lord who commanded us: “Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you? (Mt. 6:44). But from what you write about the Jews I conclude that this mind of Christ is certainly not what you have in mind. Or are these commandments of Christ perhaps too literal for you, and in need of a “spiritualization”?

            God never rejected his nation, although he leads them through severe punishments in order to purify them and bring them to the glorious end He has in mind for them. Christians speak much of the blindness of Israel, but they often ignore that remember that St. Paul called it a partial blindness, which will last only “until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in” (Rom. 11:25). And St. Paul severely warned the Gentile members of the Church about boasting against the Jews (Rom. 11:13-36).

            But it appears to me that you simply do not believe the Holy Scriptures, or at least do not believe that the Hebrew part of the Bible is divinely inspired. If this is the case we don’t have much common ground.

            As I see things, if God says many things about the literal restoration of the nation of Israel and gives many details about the future Temple that can impossibly be spiritualized, we have to bow our heads for the authority of his word and accept it. We should never reject clear biblical texts because they don’t fit our theological system. We have to revise our theology if it doesn’t allow for the force and demands of these texts.

            For instance, when a future Temple is prophecized and it is said: “Thus saith the Lord God; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh [How would you spiritualize that?], shall enter into my Sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel. And the Levites that are gone away far from me, when Israel went astray, which went astray away from me after their idols; they shall even bear their iniquity. Yet they shall be ministers in my Sanctuary, having charge at the gates of the house, and ministering to the House: they shall slay the burnt offering and the sacrifice for the people, and they shall stand before them to minister unto them” (Ez. 44:9-11), then our first duty is to believe this prophecy as the word of God, and to intepret it according to its plain, literal sense. Unless there are clear indications in the text itself to the contrary, one should interpret it literally.

          • JudgeRight

            I am aware of the propaganda that accuses Christians of persecuting the Jews throughout history. That is a lie which does not have a Scriptural foundation (yes, the NT testifies clearly that it is the Jews who persecute the follower of Jesus, not the other way around!), and is based on twisting historical facts, including a stretched and twisted definition of “church.” It is disheartening that a Christian, as you seem to be, has accepted that fallacy and are ready to accuse your own brothers of anti-semitism to defend those who are ruled by the spirit of the antichrist. Because all who reject Jesus are antichrists (John 1:22).

            On this premise, we can say that no real Chrisitan has ever persecuted the Jews. Indeed, the commandment is “love your enemies” including the Jews who reject Christ as many Gentiles do. However, you mistake “love your enemies” with the non-existing command “bow down and worship your enemies, even when they reject Christ.” Those who love Jews witness to them that Jesus is the Messiah, the way the apostles did in Acts 2 and do not feed the falsity of a status that implies a covenant outside the sacrifice of Jesus.

            “God never rejects His nation” is a true statement you made but not the way you mean it. All who reject Jesus Christ God will reject because Jesus is His Son in Whom the Father is well pleased. Apostle Paul clearly argues that “not all who are of Israel are Israel” Rom. 9:6. What do you do with that verse? The real Isreal among the natural Israel are those of faith, those who believed the promise, the heir of Abraham, i. e. followers of Christ. The rest of the natural Israel clearly are NOT Israel.

            I assume it is your adopted theology that sees a need and a Scriptural fulfillment in the restoration of the state of Israel in 1948. Did God ordain the formation of the State of Isreal or He allowed the fulfillment of the vision of the Zionist political movement? According to you — the former is true. According to me, and I insist the NT, the latter is true.

            Let me address the issue of the state of Israel of 1948 existence. As a political question, does that state have the right to exist? Yes, of course. As a biblical, theological, and historical question? It is not a matter of right or no right but a matter of fulfillment of biblical prophecy. However, critically important, that fulfillment of biblical prophecy is NOT in the way Christian Zionism, dispensationalism, Zionism, or Judaism may see it.

            This leads us to the final question in your post. Ez. 44:9-11 is an OT Scripture that refers to those who were THEN adopted in the THEN people of God, still those of Israel, Jacob, yet with the condition of faith in God, not just into the external traditions of the Israelites.

          • Aliquantillus

            Obviously, the Christian persecution of the Jews has no scriptural foundation, because these persecutions started long after the completion of the Apostolic Scriptures, at the time when the Roman Emperors accepted Christianity. And in my viewpoint these persecutions lack all legitimacy, but in your viewpoint these persecutions have legitimacy, because of your Replacement Theology. Don’t you notice the tragic irony of your own words?

            In fact, the way the traditional Church presents the Gospel to Jews is already a manner of persecuting them, because it demands that Jews cease to observe the Torah and become de-judaized by accepting it. This is completely contrary to the teaching of Christ, who said: “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven” (Mt. 5:17-19). Note the final verse which I italicized. There is no shred of doubt that Jesus taught that the observance of the Torah should continue until Heaven and Earth pass away.

            I agree with you that all persons who reject Christ will ultimately be condemned, but what Christian would doubt that? Is that something new or something which I denied? You seem to miss my entire point that the national preservation of Israel is something quite different from eternal salvation. Because of the promises and the oath that God swore to the Patriarchs, and because of what he said by the Prophets, the nation of Israel will be preserved and finally enter the Kingdom. Eternal salvation, however, is a different thing. Each and every Israelite who wants to be eternally saved has to accept Jesus as Messiah by personal faith.

            As to the way national Israel will be restored, read the Book of Ezechiel from ch. XXXVII on. The vision of the valley of dry bones is very informative about this. First there is the reunion of the nation from the grave of persecution and captivity (the coming together of the bones), then the process of gaining national strength (the flesh and sinews added and the completion of the body by the covering of the skin), and finally it is given the Spirit of the Lord (symbolizing its definitive and irrevesable conversion to God).

            The final stage of the giving of the spirit will not happen before Messiah returns. We know that according to the message of the angels the Lord Jesus Christ will return at the Mount of Olives when he comes in his glory and majesty, for as St. Luke explains, in the beginning of the Book of Acts, he “shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven” (Acts 1:11). When we combine this with what we find in the Book of the Prophet Zechariah about the siege and final liberation of Jerusalem, we get a more complete picture. In Zech. ch. XII it is said that Jerusalem will be made a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, and that all the people of the earth will gather against it. And that the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem in that day, and destroy all the nations that come against it. In that day the the inhabitants of Jerusalem and the House of David will receive the spirit of grace and supplication, and they will recognize him whom they have pierced i.e. Messiah, and mourn for him. In ch. XIV it is said that at the day of this battle the Lord’s feet will stand in the Mount of Olives,, and that He will fight against the nations and liberate his people.

            That will be the moment of Israels final conversion to the Lord God and to Messiah Jesus. And then the Kingdom will be erected. And even those from the nations who have done good to the Jews will be admitted to this Kingdom (in Zech. 14:16). But we should be well aware that this is about admission to the Kingdom in earthly, mortal bodies. All those who enter the Kingdom in this manner, will still have the responsibility of personal saving faith and a godly walk in accordance with this faith, in order to be eternally saved. No one will be eternally saved because he is a Jew, neither because he is a non-Jew. Eternal salvation requires true faith and trust, for everyone. But this is something different from the national salvation of the elect nation, which will function as a kingdom of priests and thus will be the God appointed “clergy” which all others have to obey at that time.

          • JudgeRight

            Your detailed response deserves a detailed answer. It is illustrative of the doctrines you espouse and the whole dual covenant vs New Testament teachings. I will point out some significant inconsistencies in your theses.

            Quote: “Although it is true that all those who oppose Christ are antichrist, this spiritual reality has nothing to do with the fact of the national preservation.of the Jews.”

            I thought we were not to spiritualize the Bible? God is the God of history thus all natural reality is part of the spiritual reality. The national preservation of the Jews as long as it is interpreted in a erroneous way as to twist the NT teaching of the uniqueness of salvation in of the nations and individual souls in Christ is of great spiritual and natural concern.

            Your quote from Isaiah does not concern the veil over the nations regarding Israel but regarding God’s ultimate plan of salvation. Great is the mystery of godliness and the Gospel (Eph. 3:1; 1 Tim. 3:16). The only mystery claimed about Israel is apostle Paul’s reference to the “salvation of all Israel” in Rom. 11. That “all Israel” is explained as the remnant from among the Jews, who would believe in Christ, by the apostle himself (see his reference to the “elect” and those of the “election” in the same chapter of Romans). Thus the restoration of natural Israel has already accrued, or at least begun to occur, by the work of Jesus Christ.

            The blindness of non-Jews about Jews has nothing to do with the church and Christian blindness about Jews, unless we consider the Dual Covenant heresy. Non-Christian Gentiles may hate the Jews for very separate reasons and without understanding why. Christians do not hate the Jews as the love of God is to preach the Gospel of His redemption to all. Christians have the Spirit of God and judge all things and no one judges them – 1 Cor. 2:15. The Dual Covenant heresy, express or implied, does present the Jews in the stead of the NT people of God, the followers of Christ. In fact the Dual Covenant theory is true Replacement Theology, an attempt to minimize the work of Christ and discredit the true people of God who were born of the “incorruptible seed,” 1 Peter 1:23.

            One telling statement in your post is the idea that to present the Gospel to the Jews is already persecution against them. This idea is the very purpose of the dual covenant heresy: to keep the Jews blind and uncoverted, and to deceive Christians that the offense of the Gospel should be spared the Jews. Not only Jews many people are offended by the truth of the Gospel, because people love sin and not God. Shall we consider all witness of the love and salvation in Jesus Christ offensive and persecution?

            Only the antichrists and the enemies of God would have this view. It is absurd factually and theologically for a Christian to hold this view.
            Your further quote of Matthew 5:17-19 completely misses the purpose of Jesus’ teaching there. He was not promoting Jewish adherence to their false religion and calling it fulfilment of His purpose to uphold the law. Just the opposite! He was accusing the Jews of NOT keeping the law! He was exposing their adherence to their own man-made religion instead of believing the Torah! That is clear from many other passages where the Lord debates the Pharisees and other religious leaders. Jesus clearly told the Jews that if they really believed the law and the prophets, they would believe in Him!

            John 5:45
            Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope.

            John 5:46
            For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me.

            John 6:32
            Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven.

            John 7:19
            Has not Moses given you the law? Yet none of you keeps the law. Why do you seek to kill me?”

            Jesus did not teach just “observance of the Torah until Heaven and Earth” pass away. He taught observance of the Torah only and fully as a precursor and a pointer to His own coming on earth and fulfilling His mission to save from the power of the law and sin through His own sacrifice. In other words the law is not canceled but the law cannot be kept, unless one is in Christ and receives forgiveness of His sins and the power to overcome sin by God’s grace in Christ. That’s how Christ fulfills the law – by providing the power to overcome the law. The law is for the law-breaker. Those who are in Christ are not such because they carry the new life of the Holy Spirit through the new birth in Christ.

            Yours is just the reverse interpretation that Jesus points back to the law and not to Himself as the ultimate Savior. So does the law save us or does the blood of Jesus?

            Thus your show your teaching to be against the Gospel of Jesus Christ and within the realm of the Judaizing fallacy under which the Galatians had fallen (Gal. 1-3).

            For you then to assert that the Great Commission is in fact Jesus preaching Judaism is an extreme error.

            “teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. Now, the “all things whatsoever I commanded you” clearly include his earlier instructions concerning the Torah in Mt. 5:17-19.”

            In fact, He commanded His disciples to NOT follow Judaism and its false teachings. Remember, He was crucified for pointing to the Jews that they DO NOT follow Moses, even though they claim so? Also your interpretation shows grand disregard for the true meaning of the Gospel. The gospel is not the “good news” of re-institution of the law. It is the explaining of the law as a guide to sin that condemned us all to death (Gal. 3). The Gospel is about the fulfillment of the promised salvation from sin and death given to Abraham 430 years before the law.

            Apostle Paul did not go to the then temple to worship through animal sacrifice, no evidence about that. When he stated that he had committed no offense against the Jews or the temple, he simply meant that if they had followed their traditions as given by Moses, and used their temple according to the Torah they would have not rejected Jesus Christ. Their offense is not because they kept the Torah and the traditions, that point to the Messiah; their [the Jews’] offense was because of the truth of the Apostle’s message of Christ.
            The idea that traditional Christianity wants to present Jesus as a non-Jew is simply not true. Jesus, a Jew Himself, argued with the Jews who wanted a purely Jewish Messiah, who would fit into their mold of political domination over their enemies. Secondly, besides being a Jew, Jesus was the eternal Logos, the Son of God, and thus God Himself. How Jewish can God be? See Hebrews 7:14 about Christ’s descent, Hebrews 8:4 about His priesthood. That’s where we begin to see even more clearly the Jewish supremacy theory behind the Dual Covenant deception.

            Further your statement that “the national preservation of Israel is something quite different from eternal salvation” contradicts your earlier allegation that Christians want to “spiritualize” the promise of the Jews returning to their land in Palestine and forming a state. If the national preservation of Israel is different from eternal salvation, then there is no reason for us to even consider any covenant between the Jews and God. It is just a political effort to create some form of Jewish political jurisdiction, where people who feel Jewish or Israeli can live and get citizenship. If that is what you mean, fine, we agree.

            But then you introduce concepts like the conversion of Israel as a nation, quotes from the OT that God will bring back “His people” into the promised land, and so on.

            Your interpretation of the vision of the prophet Ezekiel of the valley of dry bones to apply to natural Israel in the NT is also questionable. I will mention that “the final stage of the giving of the spirit” you associate with some act by the Messiah giving His Spirit to the Israelite nation upon or after His return.

            The promise of the giving of the Holy Spirit has already happened, Acts 1:8. However those who want the Holy Spirit and the life He gives must come first to Jesus, John 7:37.

            In your interpretation God will force the hardened natural Israel to receive life and the Spirit without ever making right with God in Christ.

            I can only agree with your reference to Acts 1:11, where it is stated that the second coming will be “in like manner” as Jesus ascended to haven. (However, when you refer to the “liberation of Jerusalem” it could be the event after the millennium when the nations will rebel against the rule of Christ under satan who will be released from the pit for one final period.)

            Regarding salvation you seem to hold a double standard. You speak of the salvation of Israel as a nation, yet afterwards, each one Jew of that saved/converted to Jesus nation of Israel, will be responsible for their own salvation? How can that be? The conversion of Israel to Christ then means no conversion, if each individual from that nation has to again personally convert by faith in Christ.

            That will be the moment of Israels final conversion to the Lord God and to Messiah Jesus. And then the Kingdom will be erected. And even those (individuals from the) nations who have done good to the Jews will be admitted to this Kingdom (in Zech. 14:16).

            The division of God’s Kingdom as an earthly reality which is cut off from salvation, faith and spirituality is also a long shot. Jesus clearly taught that the “kingdom of heaven is among you” which points to a reality of the kingdom now, but not yet fully consummated. This is the concept that the Jews and non-believers cannot wrap their mind around it. They want a kingdom in their own image, that’s why Christ died in the first place, at the hand of the Jews, but in fact at the hands of all of mankind.

            Finally, your last sentence fully speaks to the agenda of Jewish spiritual and natural supremacy. It is not supported by any Scripture. It is in fact believers who will rule and reign with Jesus as priests and kings (1 Peter 2:9; 1 Cor. 6:3 re. judging anels) , not the nation of Israel, as it is perceived to be today.

            “20 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22 And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.” (Eph. 1:20-23)

            That’s why Jesus prophesied over the Jewish stubborn rejection of the Torah and the Messiah:

            Matthew 21:43
            Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits.

            In conclusion, the doctrines you espouse promote non-believing Jewish supremacy that has not grounds in Scripture. There are too many contradictions and inconsistencies with the message of the Gospel of Jesus. The true replacement theology is the false replacing of the people of God in the NT, Jews and Gentiles, with non-believing Jews who pursue domination through political (with deep spiritual importance) agenda and false interpretations of the Bible.

          • davidrev17

            It is written [by the sovereign Ruach Elohim]:

            “Lest you [Gentiles and/or those within the NT “ekklesia”] be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this MYSTERY brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”; “AND THIS WILL BE MY COVENANT WITH THEM [national Israel and/or ethnic Jews“] WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS.”

            “As regards the gospel, they [Jews] are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers [the patriarchs Abraham, Isaac and Jacob]. FOR THE GIFTS AND THE CALLING OF GOD ARE IRREVOCABLE. For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.”

            “Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!“ For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?”“ Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?” For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen” (Romans 11:25-36/ESV, emphasis mine).

            ☆ ☆ ☆

            I don’t recall having encountered anyone that’s ever read all of Romans chapter’s 9-11 very carefully, of whom could also turn-right-around and DENY that the rabbinical scholar, Sha’ul of Tarsus [or Apostle Paul], was clearly teaching the simultaneous, yet distinct existence WITHIN humanity – throughout redemptive history too [i.e., 1 Cor. 10:32] – of Israel, thus ethnic Jews, the NT “ekklesia” [Matt. 16:18], IN whose spiritual living organism, aka the “Body of Messiah,” ALL ethnic distinctions are non-existent/dissolved/removed [i.e., Gal. 3:25-29], and the “goy/goyim”…always translated in Holy Scripture as Gentile(s) = nations = peoples.

            Clearly, according to this powerful text: the omniscient Creator God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, or the “Holy One of Israel” – IS NOT through with the ethnic nation of Israel (e.g., Romans 11:1, 11-15; Matt. 23:37-39; Acts 1:9-11; Zechariah 14:1-9); of whom the Hebrew Scriptures’ plainly teach that God Himself referred to as “My Son, My firstborn” [Exodus 4:22] & the “wife of Yahweh.” (Jeremiah 3:1, 8, 14; see also this unilaterally and/or unconditionally RE-stored “wife of Yahweh betrothed forever…” to her Husband/Creator in Hosea 2:14-23 – whose INEVITABLE/ULTIMATE restoration, by the way, IS spelled-out in quintessential New Covenant language at that!)

            Also, do you notice any precise metaphorical similarity, or parallels, between national Israel’s Divinely-bestowed status as the triune Ruach Elohim’s, “My Son, My firstborn” (Exo. 4:22) – and that of the Lord Yeshua’s Divinely-bestowed titles, like “Son of God” and/or “Firstborn”?? (e.g., Psalm 89:27; Rom. 8:29; Col. 1:15, 17-18; Hebrews 12:23; Rev. 1:5)

            Yet, as long as you continue to ignore the “whole counsel of God” – as in reading the NT, while rejecting the OT “Scriptures” (2 Tim. 3:16-17) as having since been abrogated – then the “Spirit of Truth” Himself will never be able to appropriately, thus successfully “lead/guide you into ALL TRUTH.” (John 16:13) After all, the “NT was concealed upon the pages of the OT,” thus the “OT was revealed within the text of the NT.” It’s ONE complete Book – representing ONE continuously, unfolding stream of Divinely-imparted “revelation” – not TWO individual Books…one for THEM, and one for US. “For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.” (Romans 3:21-26; 6:23; Hebrews 9-11-15)

            “It’s impossible for God to lie,” or to speak with fork-tongue; namely His having established some errantly bizarre form of “Dual Covenant Theology.” In the end, every “saved” member of the species Homo sapiens – just think of ALL those righteous Gentile/UNcircumcised saints preceding Abram, all-the-way-back to Adam [e.g., see “Miriam’s Genealogy”/Luke 3:34-38] – of whom will spend eternity in the New Jerusalem, will have graciously & lovingly arrived in that incomprehensible structure, by one’s personal faith/repentance in the sacrificial, substitutionary atonement of “the Lamb of God who takes away the SIN of the world.” (John 1:29; 14:6; Matthew 26:26-29; see also Jeremiah 31:31-37; Hebrews 8:8-13)

            THEY looked forward to the coming Redeemer/Deliverer – while WE’VE looked backward ever since. And He’s coming again…to a planet near you! We’d all be wise to allow the inscrutable sovereign Creator, to “work all things out according to the counsel of HIS own will.” (Ephesians 1:1-12)

            ☆ ☆ ☆

            “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.” (Isaiah 55:8-9/ESV)

          • JudgeRight

            The following verses are the ONLY reasonably close to your doctrine NT passages. You rightfully quote, for there is no other NT grounds for the dual covenant theology of actually replacing the people of God with non-believing Jews. And I will repeat for clarity, as these posts are getting long.

            ==== quote ===
            It is written [by the sovereign Ruach Elohim]:

            “Lest you [Gentiles and/or those within the NT “ekklesia”] be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this MYSTERY brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”; “AND THIS WILL BE MY COVENANT WITH THEM [national Israel and/or ethnic Jews“] WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS.”

            “As regards the gospel, they [Jews] are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers [the patriarchs Abraham, Isaac and Jacob]. FOR THE GIFTS AND THE CALLING OF GOD ARE IRREVOCABLE. For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.”
            === end quote ===

            The mystery is about the “partial hardening.” What is “partial in the hardening?” The whole nation is hardened for part of history? Or only part of the nation is hardened for the whole time? In view of the rest Scripture and the NT teachings, and within the logic of Romans 11:7:

            “7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, 8 as it is written,

            “God gave them a spirit of stupor,
            eyes that would not see
            and ears that would not hear,
            down to this very day.”

            The elect within natural Israel obtained salvation. In this regard it will be the full number of the elect from among natural Israel, who are a remnant and a true Israel, that will be saved. All Israel will be saved, are all elect from among Isreal will be saved.

            How will all Israel be saved? By the whole natural nation nationally converting to the Messiah without individual will and despite of hatred for Jesus? That is exactly what you seem to read in the passage: “And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob.”

            Some automatic, unconscious for the non-believing Jews salvation, from someone they still reject?

            Who is the deliverer from Zion? Who is the one who can take away their sins? Only Jesus Christ, the Lord and Savior. Will he take away their sins without them believing first in Him? Doubtfully. Because if that is the case they will not have been locked into rebellion so that God will show himself merciful to all (end of Romans). They, the unbelieving Jews, will be able to brag that due their special nature as a people and a covenant they don’t have to believe in a “messiah” that they do not accept. As they and you insist they have the right to do even now.

            No, the deliverer from Zion who will take away theirs sins will be Jesus Christ in whom anyone has to believe first in order to be saved. There is no exception for anyone in in the world to that condition.

            The elect will do. Including the elect from among the Jews, the remnant, not the whole natural nation.

            How are we to understand then the following, I repeat the quote:

            As regards the gospel, they [Jews] are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers [the patriarchs Abraham, Isaac and Jacob]. FOR THE GIFTS AND THE CALLING OF GOD ARE IRREVOCABLE.

            It sounds as if even thought the Jews are non-believing due God’s faithfulness to the forefathers He has mandated to Himself to save the Jews even though they reject Christ. Nothing can be further from a proper interpretation.

            God’s faithfulness is not tided to the non-believing Jews and because He promised the forefathers who were faithful, then God is tied to His promise to bless and save those who reject His Son and Himself. The interpretation is that due to God’s faithfulness the non-believing Jews are not fully rejected but as “beloved” due to God’s faithfulness to the forefathers, there will be salvation for the true Israel among natural Israel. This is the only interpretation that falls in line with the rest of the Scripture, the NT teachings of Christ and the apostles, the purpose of the NT and falls within the logic of chapter 11 itself in regards to “election” as I metnioned earlier.

            A final note. The “deliverer from Zion” has to be either someone else, not Jesus Christ, through whom sins are forgiven, or if it is Jesus has to save the Jews regardless of their repentance and faith with him. Both of these are unacceptable. The deliverer will deliver through opening the eyes of the blind to who he is as the true Savior. Only then their sins will be forgiven. These will be “all of Israel,” the remnant that will be saved due to the irrevocable promises of God.

          • davidrev17

            “And I WILL POUR OUT ON THE HOUSE OF DAVID [ISRAEL] AND THE INHABITANTS OF JERUSALEM A SPIRIT OF GRACE AND PLEAS FOR MERCY, so that, WHEN THEY LOOK ON ME [Israel’s Messiah/”Deliverer,” the Lord Yeshua], ON HIM WHOM THEY HAVE PIERCED (i.e., Revelation 1:7ff] they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.”

            “On that day the mourning in Jerusalem will be as great as the mourning for Hadad-rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. The land shall mourn, each family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the Shimeites by itself, and their wives by themselves; and all the families that are left, each by itself, and their wives by themselves” (Zechariah 12:10-14/ESV, emphasis added).

            ☆ ☆ ☆

            “In that day the Branch [i.e., Messianic “title,” Zech. 6:12; Isaiah 11:1] of the Lord shall be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the land shall be the pride and honor of the survivors of Israel. And he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy, EVERYONE WHO HAS BEEN RECORDED FOR LIFE IN JERUSALEM, when the Lord [or “Redeemer”/”Deliverer”] shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its midst, by a spirit of judgment and by a spirit of burning.”

            “Then the Lord will create over the whole site of Mount Zion and over her assemblies a cloud by day, and smoke and the shining of a flaming fire by night [Yahweh’s “Shekinah” glory cloud, like the “pillar of fire/cloud” during the Exodus], for over all the glory there will be a canopy. There will be a booth for shade by day from the heat, and for a refuge and a shelter from the storm and rain” (Isaiah 4:2-6/emphasis mine again).

            ☆ ☆ ☆

            “Behold, a day is coming for the Lord, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in your midst. FOR I WILL GATHER ALL THE NATIONS AGAINST JERUSALEM TO BATTLE, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city.”

            “THEN THE LORD [Yahweh] WILL GO OUT AND FIGHT AGAINST THOSE NATIONS AS WHEN HE FIGHTS ON A DAY OF BATTLE. ON THAT DAY HIS [the “Deliverer”] FEET SHALL STAND ON THE MOUNT OF OLIVES [i.e., Acts 1:9-11; Joel 3:9-21] that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward” (Zechariah 14:1-4/ESV, my emphasis).

            ☆ ☆ ☆

            “Justice is turned back, and righteousness stands far away; for truth has stumbled in the public squares [Jerusalem & Israel] and uprightness cannot enter. Truth is lacking, and he who departs from evil makes himself a prey. The Lord saw it, and it displeased him that there was no justice. He saw that there was NO MAN, and wondered that there was NO ONE TO INTERCEDE; then his own arm brought him salvation, and his righteousness upheld him. He put on righteousness as a breastplate, and a helmet of salvation on his head; he put on garments of vengeance for clothing, and wrapped himself in zeal as a cloak. According to their deeds, so will he repay, wrath to his adversaries, repayment to his enemies; to the coastlands he will render repayment. So they shall fear the name of the Lord from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun; for HE WILL COME, HE WILL COME like a rushing stream, which the wind of the Lord drives.“

            “And a Redeemer [i.e. THE “Deliverer”] will come to Zion, to those in Jacob who turn from transgression,” declares the Lord.“ And as for me, this is my covenant with them,” says the Lord. “My Spirit that is upon you, and my words that I have put in your mouth, shall not depart out of your mouth, or out of the mouth of your offspring, or out of the mouth of your children’s offspring,” says the Lord, “from this time forth and forevermore” (Isaiah 59:14-21/ESV, emphasis added again).

            ☆ ☆ ☆

            PURE unilateral and/or unconditional “New Covenant” language and imagery throughout the above passages – and so many others in the OT – re: the nation of Israel & its citizens when Messiah returns to this planet a “second time” (Heb. 9:28) during the “Day of the Lord”; namely “…when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that DAY to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed” (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10/ESV, my emphasis of course).

            Now, since “context always determines meaning,” it should be readily discernable that none of this literal/historical activity had ever taken place, during the destruction of Jerusalem and its Temple, in 70 AD. Additionally, as far as the “ALL Israel shall be saved” declaration goes, of which Paul uses in Romans 11:26 (derived from Isaiah 59:20); please note that “gallons of ink” have been spent by recognized biblical scholars over the years, with regard to just WHO this “ALL” represents in Israel. So I’m certainly NOT inferring in any of my comments on this thread – with any sort of wooden literalness – that the “ALL” represents every single, physical Jewish descendant alive at this perhaps not-too-distant future historical occurrence!

            In fact, and in keeping with the particular “context” undergirding so many of these “second coming” passages in both OT/NT – i.e., the plain references to worldwide cataclysmic upheaval in nature due to the judgment of God, plus the literal destruction/loss of human lives due to what looks like all-out-war [or “Armageddon”] amongst industrialized nations focused upon THE destruction of Israel etc., so clearly in view in the above texts – I’m beginning to prayerfully consider if the “ALL Israel” just might refer to the physical “geographical” nation in existence today??

            I emphasize this here, simply because of the “context” of imminent, massive destruction we find mentioned in the above passages; yet whose (Israel’s) ultimate “deliverance” from all-out war, can ONLY be attributed to the Divine intervention of the “Deliverer” Himself – of whom personally “fights on behalf” of this nation (i.e., Zech. 14:3ff) so hated by so many nations on earth, of whom possess such Luciferian-driven, anti-Semitic virulence at this future time?

            And please notice this very “context” as well, to which the Lord Jesus makes specific reference in his (NON) 70 AD-premised “Olivet Discourse”:

            “For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the SAKE OF THE ELECT THOSE DAYS WILL BE CUT SHORT” (Matthew 24:21-22ff/ESV, my emphasis again; see also Jeremiah 30:7ff; Daniel 12:1ff).

          • JudgeRight

            Did Jesus come to affirm the nation of Israel or did Israel exist to point to the coming of the Savior of the world? Was Jesus a Jew to be in service of the Jewish nationalist pride and sin or did He come to confront them for these vices? Did the author of Hebrews call the New Testament a better covenant because it points to the futile Old Testament animal sacrifices, a shadow of the True Sacrifice, or did the author point out that the new covenant is better because a true redemption finally came through the blood of Jesus? Was Jesus just a Jew or was He also a High Priest in the order of Melchizedek? Are we supposed to interpret the New and better Covenant, through the Old Covenant, or are we to interpret the Old covenant of shadows, by the glorious hope of the redemption of the New Covenant? Is the land of Palestine more important that the whole world? Is the current city of Jerusalem a better capitol for the Kingdom of God than the New Jerusalem? Are the things that are corrupt and shaky better than those that are eternal and unshakable?

            All rhetorical questions, but helpful in analyzing your error of replacing the real Gospel with dated nationalism. Then all verses of Scripture you quote can be seen in a new light.

          • Aliquantillus

            You interpret my words in a wrong way. What I say has nothing to with a dual covenant teaching, proposed by some who say that the Jews are (nationally) saved by the Sinai Covenant, while the Christians are saved by the New Covenant. This is a false teaching because there is no eternal salvation by means of the Sinai Covenant.

            The erection of the Millennial Kingdom will be by the New Covenant, for also the New Covenant is a covenant made with national Israel, as is clear from Jeremiah 31:37.

            “Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my Torah in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD”.

            From this text it is completely clear that the nation of Israel will be preserved or saved as a nation by the new covenant that is announced. This is not about individual Jews being saved for eternity, as is the theme of many texts in the NT, but about the national salvation of Israel in the Messianic Kingdom, which is the theme of many texts in the Tanach.

            Now from the NT we knwo that this Millennial Kingdom will be erected at Messiah’s return in glory. And it will last for a 1000 years, i.e. until Heaven and Earth pass away, and the New Heavens and Earth are created which will remain for eternity.

            Now this return of Messiah marks the beginning of the New Covenant with the nation of Israel, as is clear from the same text of Jeremiah, if we combine it with the texts about Israel’s final acceptance of Messiah by national repentance in the Book of Zechariah. This national repentance, and thus the renewal of the heart, will take place at the return of Messiah. This appears to be the moment when the New Covenant announced by Jeremiah will be written in their inward parts and their hearts.

            The foundation of this New Covenant is, as we know, the sacrificial death of Messiah. And thus it is logical that the resurrected Messiah will come to the rescue of Israel in its final battle with the worldly powers and erect the New Covenant with them.

            It is by the one and the same New Covenant, founded in Messiah’s blood, that we are individually saved for eternity, Jews as well as non-Jews, as many as truly believe and trust in Messiah Jesus, and that Israel as a nation is temporally saved and enters the blesssings of the Messianic Kingdom and the fulfilment of all its national promises.

            There is no contradiction here. The covenant has temporal as well as eternal aspects and blessings.

            Now, to avoid a possible new confusion: Obviously, the national repentance and acceptance of Messiah implies that the overwhelming majority of the Jews at that time will be truly saved for eternity. But formally there remains an important distinction between eternal and national salvation. An individual Jew will not saved for eternity simply by entering the Messianic Kingdom. The Messianic Kingdom in a strict sense of national restoration is the temporal effect of the sacrifice of Messiah. For by his resurrection, which is the reward for his sufferings, Messiah is more powerful now than all the forces of evil, and he will in the end save his own nation by the power of his resurrection life, and be able to defeat all Israel’s enemies.

            This exercise of Messiah’s resurrection life in the temporal sphere is the sphere of blessing typically connected with the Millennium. The final transformation to the new and eternal creation is the eternal sphere of blessing. Both are founded in Messiah’s death and resurrection, and both are effects of the New Covenant.

          • JudgeRight

            We need to put a conclusion of this discussion in this present format.

            It is reassuring that you do not endorse the dual covenant. However, your extreme emphasis on the national survival and re-birth of the natural nation of Israel, and tying that revival to a fulfillment of God’s promises to natural Israel in the NT beyond those fulfilled in Christ, is in and of itself a promotion, or contains the tremendous propensity to promote the dual covenant theory. My main point is this: the promise given to Abraham, is fulfilled in Jesus Christ. Faith has its order, Christ came first to the Jew and then to Gentile. Faith has a higher and ultimate goal — salvation of mankind, rather than a Jewish world domination through a nationalistic quasi-messiah. Faith knows no race, no ethnicity, no social status, and not even gender. New race, new people, new hope, new life in Christ.

            Natural Israel has the right to be its own people as much as any other people. In that national state of theirs they are distinct from any other people no more. They will not rule the world, besides their own effort, and that of the enemy of Christ, and they will not be the “light to nations” because there is a true light to the nations, the Lord Jesus Christ. They had their chance and by their on devise and the providence of God, hardened their hearts to the point of judicial murder of their Savior; and by divine mercy they still have their chance, if they, like anyone else. repent and believe.

            There will be no national conversion of natural Israel, based on the privilege of accepting the Lord upon His full revelation. If the nation will convert to Christ, they have to do it before He appears again in glory, by faith, not by sight.

            The Scriptures OT and NT are unequivocally clear: no promise outside of Jesus. All promises are fulfilled in Christ, and are Yes and Amen – 1 Cor. 1:20.

            Sad news for Jewish national pride and supremacy, but good news to the nations and all who believe.

          • davidrev17

            Thus says you:

            “Abraham, is fulfilled in Jesus Christ. Faith has its order, Christ came first to the Jew and then to Gentile. Faith has a higher and ultimate goal — salvation of mankind, rather than a Jewish world domination through a nationalistic quasi-messiah. Faith knows no race, no ethnicity, no social status, and not even gender. New race, new people, new hope, new life in Christ.”

            “Natural Israel has the right to be its own people as much as any other people. In that national state of theirs they are distinct from any other people no more. They will not rule the world, besides their own effort, and that of the enemy of Christ, and they will not be the “light to nations” because there is a true light to the nations, the Lord Jesus Christ.”

            ▪ ▪ ▪

            “Thus says the Lord of hosts: Peoples [i.e., Gentiles] shall yet come, even the inhabitants of many cities.The inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, ‘Let us go at once to entreat the favor of the Lord and to seek the Lord of hosts; I myself am going.’ Many peoples and strong nations [again, Gentiles] shall come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem and to entreat the favor of the Lord. Thus says the Lord of hosts: In those days ten men from the nations [Gentiles] of every tongue shall take hold of the robe of a Jew, saying, ‘Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.’” (Zechariah 8:20-23/ESV)

            “Arise, shine, for your [national/ethnic Israel’s] LIGHT has come, and the glory of the Lord has risen upon you [Israel & her redeemed]. For behold, darkness shall cover the earth, and thick darkness the peoples [Gentiles]; BUT the Lord will arise upon you [Israel], and his glory will be seen upon you. And nations [Gentiles] shall come to YOUR LIGHT [the Jewish Messiah Yeshua] and kings to the brightness of your rising. Lift up your eyes all around, and see; they all gather together, they come to you; your sons shall come from afar, and your daughters shall be carried on the hip. Then you shall see and be radiant; your heart shall thrill and exult, because the abundance of the sea shall be turned to you, the wealth of the nations [Gentiles] shall come to you” [Israel]…

            “The sons of those who afflicted you shall come bending low to you, and all who despised you shall bow down at your feet; they shall call you the City of the Lord, the Zion of the Holy One of Israel. Whereas you [Israel & the Jewish people] have been forsaken and hated, with no one passing through, I will make you majestic forever, a joy from age to age. You [Israel] shall suck the milk of nations [Gentiles]; you shall nurse at the breast of kings; and you shall know that I [“YHWH”] the [triune] Lord, am YOUR SAVIOR AND YOUR REDEEMER [and “Deliverer”], the Mighty One of Jacob.”

            “Violence shall no more be heard in your land, devastation or destruction within your borders; you shall call your walls Salvation, and your gates Praise. The sun shall be no more your light by day, nor for brightness shall the moon give you light; but the Lord [“YHWH”] will be YOUR EVERLASTING LIGHT, and your God will be your glory. Your sun shall no more go down, nor your moon withdraw itself; for THE LORD WILL BE YOUR EVERLASTING LIGHT, and YOUR DAYS OF MOURNING SHALL BE ENDED. Your people [those redeemed Jews] shall all be righteous; they shall possess the
            land forever [the “PROMISED LAND”/Genesis 13:14-17; 15:17-21], the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I MIGHT BE GLORIFIED. The least one shall become a clan, and the smallest one a mighty nation; I AM THE LORD [“YHWH”]; IN ITS TIME I WILL HASTEN IT.”

            (Isaiah 60:1-5, 14-16, 18-22/ESV, emphasis added of course)

            ▪ ▪ ▪

            I’ve merely scratched-the-surface here; in the way of having not copied anywhere near ALL of the relevant OT texts; of which underscore this same continuous theme of God’s unwavering, BLOOD-covenant-keeping faithfulness – to His unchanging inerrant Word.

            Sadly though, you’re chasing your theological tail on this issue – aka “fighting against God” – due to an utterly tragic (not to mention incoherent) case of self-imposed biblical illiteracy. And you’ve also been warned so clearly by the Word of God on this thread, from no doubt concerned brothers and/or sisters who’ve taken the time to humbly implore you to consider the proverbial “error of your ways.” (BTW: remember Jesus’ statement to the religious leaders in Matthew 22:29: “You do err not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God”?)

            Yet you’ve both arrogantly and defiantly refused to even consider the fact that your anti-Semitic position is profoundly UN-Christlike, as well as UN-biblical; meaning you’ve chosen to remain mired in this present “heart condition,” despite having been confronted with SO much irrefutable truth contained in the Word of God, by several individuals on this thread??

            Thus you’re now in a self-imposed “bind” of theological accountability before the very “Jewish” Lord Yeshua of Nazareth. And on top of all this, you’re persistently (and perhaps blasphemously?) calling Almighty God a liar – with deludedly hardened, Pharisaical self-righteousness at that. After all, your words in all your posts bear this out! So be it. I’ll dialogue no further with you on this.

            ▪ ▪ ▪

            “God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?” (Numbers 23:19)

          • Aliquantillus

            It is true that the promises given to Abraham are fulfilled in Christ, but this entails that Christ really fulfils all that is promised to Abraham, including the promise of the possession of the Holy Land &c. “”Fulfilled in Christ” doesn’t simply mean that as soon as Christ appears all is fulfilled. It is fulfilled in and through all the activity of Christ, including his glorious return and when he will rule in his Kingdom in Jerusalem.

            The other things you say, for example concerning the conversion of the Jewish nation are simply blatantly in conflict with the prophetic Scriptures, in particularly the Prophets Jeremiah, Zechariah, and Ezechiel. Your spiritualizing approach of biblical prophecy is more like spin than genuine interpretation, and in fact you make God a liar, for in your system he constantly promises a final and national redemption to Israel, testified by all the prophetic books, from Isaiah to Malachi, and in the end this national redemption is simply declared “fulfilled in Christ”, or better completely denied. In this way you make it very for Jews, to reject the Christian claim that Jesus is Messiah. For you openly declare that Jesus did not and will not (except “spiritually”, by a spin interpretation) fulfil the promises that God made to his people. Do you really think that God so misled his nation that He under solemnly did declare the things of Jeremiah ch. XXXI and then later on would say that this was all meant “spiritually”?

            Why do you believe in the Second Coming anyway. If the predictions of Israel’s prophets can get a sense completely unknown and even incompatible to the best understanding of their contemporary public, and if all the promises made by God before the coming of Christ can be spiritualized away by the Christ event, then why should we have any faith in the reality of the Second Coming and the eternal state of the New Heavens and Earth?

            Your way of reading Scripture is in fact so liberal, that to me it has become more clear than ever before that Replacement Theology is just the preparatory phase for Modernism and Secularist Humanism. You start by emptying the OT Prophecies of their real meaning by spiritualizing them. It is exactly this procedure which the secularist philosophers have repeated and applied to the NT.

            To me any system of interpretatino which destroys the literal and plain meaning of the biblical text is unacceptable, because it leads us in the end into the guagmire of Higher Criticism. That’s why I literally believe the following words of the Prophet Zechariah:

            And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, Holiness Unto The LORD; and the pots in the LORD’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar. Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.”

            No way that this text can be interpreted “spiritually”. But it is possible to interpret “in Christ”, simply by holding it will be literally fulfilled at the Second Coming and in the Millennial Kingdom, the Messianic Age. But within the arbitrary limits of your system of theology the only honest thing to do is simply reject this prophecy by declaring that it is not part of the Word of God.

          • JudgeRight

            Just apply all of what you’re saying to the true Israel and the true people of God, the heirs of Abraham’s promise fulfilled by faith in Christ. Then apply the prophecies of natural Israel to those of the natural Israel who accept Christ, and all is coming together. And actually, there are no grounds for you to accuse me of liberalism. Zionism, Jewish unbelief, are the foundation of any political, and thus spiritual liberal corruption of the modern world, starting with communism, leftism and all sorts of other utopias. The Jews do carry, the now warped, messianism in themselves. However, without God, and actually by rejecting Him, it is only His enemy that can inspire these false, utopian, “brotherhood” vision of human society and future that end up in gargantuan historical atrocities.

          • Aliquantillus

            Oh, applying the promises given to the Jews to other people? No way! The Gentiles are at best part of Israel, when they are believers in Messiah Jesus, but they do not replace the literal Israel. Never! You want the wild branches of the Olive Tree to emancipate from the tree, which is a hopeless affair.

            If you want to argue your case that the Gentile Church replaces the Jewish Nation, then first give a detailed exegesis on your own terms of the passage of Zechariah I quoted in my last reply (Zech. 14:16-21). You haven’t been able to produce a singular “spiritual” exegesis as an alternative for a literal reading of the relevant texts of Jeremiah, Zechariah, Ezechiel, Isaiah, &c quoted or mentioned in our discussion. Yes, and I call you a liberal, because you don’t believe the biblical texts and yet think you are a Christian.

            Jewish religious Zionism and Christian Zionism are certainly not the foundation of any corruption. Quite the reverse, it is one of the few rays of hope in the darkening world of the West and of the Western Church. The deepest root of the modern corruption is secularization, and historical Christianity is a secularization of the Jewish religion, because it reduces this religion to ethics and dismisses the Torah. This will be undone at Messiah’s return, when a universal theocracy will be instituted.

          • JudgeRight

            Spot on, brother.

          • JudgeRight

            Just one comment. You cannot put the Torah over Jesus Christ. The law is less than the Word of God who is Christ.

            Also, quote: “The abomination of the desolation is the desecration of the holy place which will happen in the time of Antichrist, in the crisis leading up to the Millennium.”

            Absolutely not. The abomination of desolation is the desecration of the sacrifice of Christ by installing OT sacrifice during the NT. Just think about it without your background and adopted ready doctrines.

          • Aliquantillus

            The answer to the first point is that If the Torah is not an enduring standard, then Jesus Christ cannot be the Messiah. The Book Deuteronomy gives criteria by which a true future Prophet should be accepted. One of these criteria is that the Torah is confirmed and upheld by this Prophet. How could be otherwise? Later revelations expand earlier ones, but they cannot contradict them.

            The fact that the Torah remains an enduring standard doesn’t at all take away that the Word-made-flesh, i.e. Christ, is greater than the Torah. But why should something that is greater or more than what precedes it be in conflict with this preceding thing? The fact that Christ is in perfect harmony with the Torah and confirms the Torah (Mt. 5:17-19) doesn’t at all deny that he is the purpose or end-goal of the Torah. Here again you are constructing a conflict which doesn’t exist.

            As to the abomination of desolation, it is clearly stated by Christ that it will stand in the holy place, and that it is spoken of by Daniel the Prophet (Mt. 24:15). Now Daniel says of this abomination that it consists in the pollution of the Sanctuary and in taking away the daily sacrifice. That’s exactly why it is called the abomination of desolation, because it signifies the abomination that makes desolate (Dan. 11:31). This is confirmed by Dan. 12:11, which says that “the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up”. So what is taken away from the holy place is the daily sacrfice, and what is installed there is the abomination of desolation.

            This is clear proof that the abomination of desolation not the installing of the Temple sacrfices but the taking away of them and the installement of something else, presumably the man of sin of II Thess. 2:3-4.

          • JudgeRight

            Here I give three quotes about the meaning of sacrifice which illustrate the dramatic error you are demonstrating about the work of Jesus Christ. Quote then my comment:

            1) “We should remember that the Apostles themselves took part in sacrificial worship and visited the Temple.”

            No, this is speculation. They visited the temple to preach the Good News of Jesus Christ. There is no evidence in the Scriptures that they sacrificed animals.

            2) “In the time before Messiah, the sacrifices of the Torah pointed toward his final and ultimate sacrifice. In the Millennial Kingdom the sacrifices of the future Temple will point back to Messiah’s sacrifice. In both cases the animal sacrifices sacramentally represent Messiah’s sacrifice.”

            Absolutely not. We are looking forward not backwards. why do you need a shadow of the future glory if you have the glory? Very typical example of the confusion of the Zionist and judaizing falsehood.

            3) “As to Hebrews 10:9 saying that “the first is done away in order to establish the second”, you read too much in this text. It doesn’t imply that sacrificial worship simply ceased after the Sacrifice of the Cross, but that the Sacrifice of the Cross of Messiah laid the foundations for a new order of things. We know that in the New Creation after the Millennium animal sacrifices will no longer be needed because all things will have reached their ultimate perfection. But this ultimate perfection is not immediately obtained. This perfection will only be gradually realized.”

            Complete fallacy. The ultimate perfection was already obtained by the perfect sacrifice by the Son of God on the cross. It is a historical fact. Any other sacrifice that attempts to challenge, diminish or substitute that fully sufficient sacrifice is an abomination in the eyes of God. Any interpretation of Scripture or man’s history must take place through the revolutionary event of Jesus’ life ministry and death and resurrection. Judaism and Zionism purposefully deny or minimize God’s redemptive plan and Christ’s ransom paid for our sins. Animal sacrifices are only a reminder of our sins. Why do we need to be reminded of our sins if we have victory over sin in Christ’s sacrifice (See Heb. 10:3).

          • Aliquantillus

            One example of the continuing relevance of the Torah, and implicitly of the sacrifices, is found in Acts 21:20, where the elders of the community in Jerusalem said to St. Paul: “Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the Torah“. One cannot be zeolous of the Torah by neglecting the obligatory sacrifices. Another example is that St. Paul took upon him to bring the sacrifices for group of men who had taken a vow: “Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the Temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them” (Acts 21:26).

            At that time there were false rumours that St. Paul taught the Jews which were among the Gentiles to forsake Moses” (Acts. 21:21). In order to refute and stop these rumours as false and to establish the truth that St. Paul faithfully obeyed the Torah a public act was necessary. So by purifying himself with this group of men who had taken a vow, St. Paul openly demonstrated his adherence to the Torah, in order that “all may know that those things whereof they were informed concerning thee [i.e. the false rumours that St. Paul preached apostasy from Moses and the Torah], are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly and keepest the Torah” (Acts 21:24).

            As to the point that ultimate perfection was already obtained by the perfect sacrifice of Messiah, you confuse the perfection of the sacrifice with the perfection of its purpose and effects. The sacrifice is indeed once and for all and qua sacrifice perfect. But this doesn’t take away that its effects take time to realize and that this realization is not fully completed before the coming of the new heavens and earth. Nor does it take away that some of these effects will be realized by means of the Sanctuary in the theocracy of the Kingdom Age. In fact, it will be Jesus Christ who will be able to establish the Kingdom and the Temple of Ezechiel as a consequence of his sacrificial death.

            Why are you denying the clear testimony of all the Prophets? What you do is completely arbitrary. You contradict the Prophets by means of a wooden interpretation of some verses in the Epistle to the Hebrews. Why not the other way round? What’s the criterion of interpretation here? From my point of view, all texts should be interpreted in such a way that they form a harmonious whole.

          • stan schmunk

            God is the biggest most fierce anti-semite there is. Read Deuteronomy 28 and many other promises of judgement in the OT.

          • Aliquantillus

            Nobody — and certainly not the Jews themselves — denies the fact of God’s judgments on the Jewish nation, But all these judgements confirm the eternal nature of the Covenant. These judgments are themselves part of the covenant stipulations. So, if the Jews were no longer in a covenant relation with God, it would logically follow that neither the covenant’s promises nor the curses, would still apply. But exactly because God has promised never to abandon his nation, these promises and curses do apply.

            How can you be so blind as to accuse God himself of Antisemitism?

          • stan schmunk

            You really need to read Deuteronomy 28…

          • Aliquantillus

            Deut. ch. XXVIIII is part of the covenant and so are the punishments announced in this chapter. The fact that these punishments actually happened demonstrates that the Jewish people are in fact eternally in the covenant. It proves that God can be trusted, in his promises as well as in his warnings.

            The enduring nature of the covenantal relation is confirmed by the following chapters. Although the unfaithfulness of Israel is clearly predicted, so is God’s everlasting mercy. In fact, the existence of Israel is interwoven with the structure of the world:

            “When the Most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel. For the LORD’s portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.” (Dt. 32

          • stan schmunk

            Hebrews 11 unites us all in one body. Even Abraham realized that the promise was of a heavenly city, not an earthly one. Jesus clearly said that unbelieving Israel worshipped Satan. He called their synagogues synagogues of Satan. The Revelation says that Jerusalem’s spiritual names are Sodom and Egypt and it rejoices over the death of the 2 witnesses and for that it is hit with a massive earthquake. Paul clearly that Jewish unbelievers are not Jews at all. BTW, the promise of the Temple in Ezekiel was conditioned on the faith and obedience of the people when they came back from Babylon.

          • davidrev17

            How interesting, in your eisegetical molding-and-shaping of Holy Scripture – in hopes of making the inerrant Word, conform to some theological house-of-cards built by man – that you can deftly move about in your interpretive wizardry, while cherry-picking which verses and/or passages to interpret literally, and which texts to spiritualize, allegorize, or even ignore – if such present contradictory challenges to your cherished theological paradigm. Absolutely amazing!

            So please allow me to provide a perfect, honest example of your interpretive skills, while you clearly ignore the long-standing principle that “context itself, always determines meaning”; and I’ll do this by using your above references to events in Revelation chapter 11:

            “The Revelation says that Jerusalem’s spiritual names are Sodom and Egypt and it rejoices over the death of the 2 witnesses and for that it is hit with a massive earthquake.”

            The historical context of these events, is no doubt unfolding in a literal/physical city called Jerusalem…it’s unmistakable. (11:8) You also acknowledge the “death of the two witnesses” (11:7-8) – but for some unknown reason, NOT their literal physical/bodily resurrection “three-and-a-half days” later (11:11-12) – whereby 11:12 states that “their [literal/physical] enemies saw them ascend to heaven in a cloud.” You also acknowledge Jerusalem’s being struck “in the same hour, by a great earthquake…” (11:13).

            So please tell me when these literal, physical, thus historical events were ever recorded, or chronicled to have taken place in Israel’s ancient history; particularly in view of chapter eleven’s obvious context in vv. 9-13, emphasizing that these literal events unfolded right before the knowledgeable “eyes” of a watching world, of whom was simultaneously aware of what was taking place in Jerusalem?

            Now the statement, “those who dwell on the earth” – a phrase btw, used 11-times in the Book of Revelation, which always denotes UNbelievers around this planet – of whom possess simultaneous knowledge of events taking place geographically far-away from their own lives (meaning in and around Israel & Jerusalem); could only happen upon a planet that was literally wired for simultaneous global/satellite communications. (Just think digital communications & news media broadcasting on the internet/computers, or satellite TV, plus billions of folk with smartphones & social media etc.)

            Clearly all of these literal/historical events you’ve acknowledged just above, couldn’t possibly have happened during the specific context of 70 AD in Jerusalem – nor at any other time throughout this planet’s history, except maybe during the last 20-years or so; unless of course you can cite to ancient rabbinical sources, Josephus et al., to corroborate your interpretive panache. I’d love to hear your scholarly-premised biblical response, my brother?

          • stan schmunk

            That’s extremely tortured and to call my references to Scripture ‘cherry-picking’ is quite a serious charge. I NEVER said that this was an historical past event. It is obviously an end-of-the-age event. It’s interesting that you didn’t discuss Jerusalem’s mystery or spiritual names…

    • davidrev17

      “And the Yahweh said to him [Solomon], “I have heard your prayer and your plea, which you have made before me. I have consecrated this house that you have built [in Jerusalem], by PUTTING MY NAME THERE FOREVER. My eyes and my heart will be there perpetually” [for all time]. My emphasis. (1 Kings 9:3; see also 11:13)

      “He is the Lord our God; his judgments are in all the earth. He remembers his covenant forever, the word that he commanded, for a thousand generations, the covenant that he made with Abraham, his sworn promise to Isaac, which he confirmed to Jacob as a statute, to Israel [NOT the NT “Church”] as an everlasting covenant, saying, “To you I will give the land of Canaan as your portion for an inheritance” (Psalm 105:7-11/ESV, emphasis added.)

      “The Lord said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him, “Lift up your eyes and look from the place where you are, northward and southward and eastward and westward, for all the land that you see I will give to you and to your offspring FOREVER. I will make your offspring as the dust of the earth, so that if one can count the dust of the earth, your offspring also can be counted. Arise, walk through the length and the breadth of the land, for I will give it to you.” (Genesis 13:14-17/ESV, my emphasis; see especially all of Genesis 15; 17:1-21; 22:15-18; 26:2-5; 28:10-17; 35:9-15; Hebrews 6:13-18.)

      ☆ ☆ ☆

      There’s not enough time, or space to adequately cover this exhaustive subject my friend, but I do hope you’ll prayerfully consider the very “character of God,” as this critically relevant subject (to WE human beings) relates to what follows:

      Perhaps the reason you seem to be struggling with theological, thus prophetic myopia, could have something to do with your having ignored so much of the Old Testament, seen in your imploring “Christians to go back to their New Testament’s and read them carefully so not to fall into the deception of the end times…”? Please correct me if I’m wrong.

      Please don’t forget that when the rabbinical scholar, Sha’ul of Tarsus, or Apostle Paul, stated in 2 Timothy 3:16, that “all Scripture is given by inspiration of God” [literal Greek = “God breathed”], and is profitable for DOCTRINE, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness…” – there was NO recognized New Testament Canon in existence at the time; whose historical reality would naturally include EVERY other use of the word “Scripture” found throughout the New Testament. (e.g., Luke 24:25-27, 44-48; Acts 28:23-31) So the NT is filled with the OT! Furthermore, with these facts in mind, it’s manifestly certain that the very message of mankind’s redemption “from the curse of sin and death” – i.e., the “Gospel of Yeshua/Jesus the Messiah” – was itself derived from the Hebrew Scriptures.

      Haven’t you ever considered, or wondered why the NT is almost saturated with direct quotations, paraphrases, and allusions from nothing but the Hebrew Bible? In fact, in the brief 22-chapters of the Book of Revelation alone, scholars have recognized almost 300 Old Testament quotations, references, allusions etc.

      Now having said the above: when Yahweh directed Moses (Exodus 4:22) to tell Pharoah, that [national] “ISRAEL is my son, my firstborn,” surely you recognize that this couldn’t possibly represent a valid reference to the NT Church, or “ekklesia”; whose spiritual entity was an OT “mystery” anyway (Matthew 16:18; Ephesians 3:1-12), illustrating something entirely brand NEW in-the-making, so to speak, during the advent of Yeshua of Nazareth, and was thus was totally distinct from theocratic nation/political ISRAEL.

      Then, what of the clear OT teaching that national Israel was regarded as the “wife of Yahweh” (e.g., Jeremiah 3:14) – remember the radically different NT “Church” designation as the Bride of Christ? – whose divorce due to their habitual sin & spiritual harlotry (Jer. 3:8, but see 3:14-18) during ancient history (just think of the prophet Hosea, and Gomer), will ultimately result in Israel’s being restored, thus “betrothed to Yahweh forever…” – i.e., consider all of Hosea chapter two, but esp. 2:14-23 – due to the loving faithfulness of Almighty God alone!!

      If you can almost blasphemously believe that Yahweh is capable of lying – and compare such a notion with Numbers 23:19; Malachi 3:6; Hebrews 6:18; 13:8; Titus 1:1-3 – then what on earth becomes of all those human beings to whom Yahweh has ever “sworn an oath”; particularly when He’s spoken definitively, and finally to humanity, through the fully-human, yet fully-Divine physical/bodily resurrected & glorified Son of Man himself?? (e.g., Hebrews 1:1-4; 13:8; Mark 14:57-65; Daniel 7:9-14)

      If you can believe this – then the transcendent Creator God self-revealed in the Judeo-Christian Scriptures, is an insidiously deceptive charlatan, thus figment of our imagination, or simply UNtrustworthy; in which obvious case, “all bets-are-off” for His specially-created spirit creatures Homo sapiens? But that description sounds so much more like the “serpent of old,” as opposed to the “only true and Living God,” doesn’t it?? (i.e., John 8:42-47; 10:10)

      ☆ ☆ ☆

      “So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, WILL YOU AT THIS TIME RESTORE THE KINGDOM TO ISRAEL?” He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes,and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.” (Acts 1:6-11/ESV; my emphasis again. See also in this context, Zechariah 14:1-11; Acts 3:17-26; Hebrews 9:28; Isaiah 4:1-6; Jeremiah 23:5-8; Psalm 2; 72; 110; 132.)

      • JudgeRight

        Here I am briefly responding to you in the reverse order.

        Times and seasons
        To your question about Acts 1:6 please see my response to Aliquntillus below.

        People of God
        National Israel is not the wife of God anymore. It is those who believe in Jesus, also know as the “church.”

        Quote: “So the NT is filled with the OT!” Of course it is. But it does not matter in the way you describe it. The Old Testament is still old. We have a better covenant, that sealed with the blood of Jesus. All Scripture must be interpreted to that new reality. The OT does not have independent from the cross of Jesus existence. Your insisting that the Old Testament is preemptive in regards to the work and life of Jesus is entirely wrong, 180 degrees opposite to the truth. It is the life and blessing in the OT that points to the promised coming of the Messiah, Who is Jesus Christ.

        Abrahamic Covenant
        The everlasting covenant God had with Abraham and to which you refer to concerns Christ. Natural Israel were part of that covenant until the new covenant concluded through the crucifixion, death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. After that a new race and a new nation emerged, those saved by the grace of God through faith in His only Son. This is actually the “being a blessing to all nations,” promised to Abraham, confirmed in the Great Commission, and fulfilled in Acts and the evangelistic ministry of the Church (Galatians 3)

        Your theories are a complete reversal of the grace and hope we were given through the life and sacrifice of our Lord. The judaizing false teaching to early Christians, which apostle Paul addresses in the whole book of Galatians, that following the law and circumcision is needed to be saved was actually a different gospel which led to a curse, not a blessing. Its contemporary version is Zionist Christianity which serves only false Jewish “messianism” which is still as political, as in the times of Jesus, and still as delusional and void of faith as back then.

        Only in the Lord Jesus Christ there is salvation and blessing and eternal life. All other covenants and gods are simply the product of false teachings.

        • davidrev17

          “For I tell you that Christ became a servant to the circumcised [JEWS], to show God’s truthfulness, in order to confirm the promises given to the patriarchs [Abraham, Isaac and Jacob], in order that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy. As it is written, “Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles, and sing to your name” (Romans 15:8-9/ESV, emphasis added).

          “You [JEWS] are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant that God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your offspring shall all the families of the earth be blessed.’ God, having raised up his servant [Yeshua] SENT HIM TO YOU FIRST, to bless you by turning every one of you from your wickedness” (Acts 3:25-26/ESV, my emphasis of course).

          “On the contrary, when they [the Jewish leaders of the Church @ the “Jerusalem Council” in Acts 15] saw that I [Paul] had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised [Gentiles], just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised (for he [The Holy Spirit] who worked through Peter for his apostolic ministry to the circumcised [Jews], also worked through me for mine to the Gentiles), and when James and Cephas and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given to me, they gave the right hand of fellowship to Barnabas and me, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised” [Jews]. (Galatians 2:7-9/ESV)

          ☆ ☆ ☆

          So, the Jewish apostle Peter et al. had exclusively evangelized the Jews (i.e., Acts 2-thru-7) during roughly the first several “formative years” of the 1st-century Church. Even the rabbinical scholar Sha’ul of Tarsus, or the Apostle Paul, the “Apostle to the Gentiles,” had evangelized the Jewish people at every conceivable opportunity in their synagogues. After all, UNsaved Jews were Paul’s consistently fiercest detractors, or enemies, seen in several places throughout the Book of Acts – e.g., Acts 13:13-52; 14:1-7; 17:1-8; 28:17-31. Consequently, your idea re: the activity unique to the “Judaizers” of which Paul addresses in the Book of Galatians, has NO relevance whatsoever to what I’ve said here; since I wholeheartedly believe what Galatians 3:1-9 makes perfectly clear. (Notice Paul’s use of Genesis 15:6 in that passage, and in Romans 4:3 too!)

          Clearly, the sovereign Holy “Spirit of Truth” only has ONE “gospel of salvation” for humanity, i.e., both Jews & Gentiles; whose sole New Covenant message of redemption (you know, Jeremiah 31:31-37; Romans 1:16; Hebrews 8:) from the “curse of sin and death,” was Divinely ordained, or intended for “the Jew first then also for the Gentile.” (Romans 1:16) And absolutely NOthing has changed in Almighty God’s redemptive “plans” ever since…during the last 2,000 years! Thus ALL Jews throughout this planet, and alive at this very hour (including those in Israel), need to hear the ONLY saving message by which they can receive forgiveness for their sins & eternal life – “through Yeshua [the Jewish] Messiah our Lord.” (i.e., Romans 6:23)

          Now having noted this New Covenant distinction, I need to address your misguided, thus erroneous assumptions and/or accusations that I, et al. on this thread (perhaps Dr. Brown as well?) must necessarily subscribe to some wholly errant form of “Dual Covenant Theology” (e.g., read John Hagee), simply because we believe the Holy Bible comprises ONE single Book, not TWO. (Remember 2 Timothy 3:16: “All Scripture is God breathed…”?) So by this, I’m stressing the utterly bizarre, controlling hermeneutic to which you seem an ardent adherent: i.e., that the content of the Hebrew Bible has since been abrogated, or rendered null-and-void, ever since the formal inauguration, or establishment of the New Covenant through Israel’s Redeemer.

          Perhaps you’ve never heard of the tried-and-true interpretive “grid,” that “Scripture will always interpret Scripture”; or that “the New Covenant was concealed upon the pages of the Old Covenant [Testament], thus the OT was/is revealed within the text of the New Covenant”? (My paraphrase.) I don’t know if your overall theology/eschatology is premised upon the biblically unfounded notion of “Preterism”; but I am acutely aware that one’s trying to “eisegetically” pound the square-peg of Preterism – meaning ALL of redemptive history, until this very hour – into the round-hole of its 70A.D. “terminus ad quem,” consequentially generates the irreconcilably divergent theological & prophetic conundrums, thus prophetic “blind spots,” or spiritual myopia, with which you’re so clearly struggling. And tragically, you can’t even recognize this, since you’ve literally jettisoned “the rest of the story,” meaning the OT, from your interpretive toolbox??

          Utilizing this very peculiar exegetical method of ignoring most-or-all of the OT, is precisely why Preterism (and other false anti-semitic teachings) produce far more biblical questions and anomalies – than the very answers such methods purport to offer. The “twisting and distorting of Scripture” is certainly nothing new, as your comments to not only me, but to others with whom you’re interacting on this thread make abundantly clear. So allow me to close with an egregious anti-semitic error you’ve made in your comments – i.e., perhaps a prophetic “blind spot”? – whether this was accomplished with clear intent, or not:

          You reference the heavenly abode for ALL saints, for eternity, aka the “New Jerusalem” – and I assume you include your goyim self as one of its unimaginably blessed occupants? – wherein the triune “Lamb of God [alone] is its light” (Revelation 21:22-23). Yet you seem rather oblivious to the very Jewish, thus prophetically fulfilled description of this incomprehensible eternal structure – see Jesus’ somewhat cryptic prophetic reference to this truth in John 4:24, that “SALVATION IS OF THE JEWS” – of whose architectural design is exhaustively detailed in Rev. 21:12-21.

          So I’m emphasizing here (Rev. 21:12-14), the fact that entrance itself into this cubed-structure has strictly limited access through “twelve gates” – remember the Jewish Jesus’ metaphorical allusion to himself in John 10, as THE “door of the sheep”? – upon which one finds inscribed the Jewish “names of the twelve tribes of Israel”; and upon whose “twelve foundations,” was inscribed the “names of the twelve [Jewish] apostles of the Lamb.” (See again in this context, Romans 15:8-9.)

          Truly, “salvation is of the Jews”; whose unchanging, eternally redemptive TRUTH couldn’t possibly be made anymore clearer in both the Old & New Testament’s. (BTW: Are you at all aware, that roughly 1 out-of-every 25 verses [totaling some 318], within the almost 8,000 verses of the Greek NT, are specific references to Yeshua’s “second coming” to planet earth?) How can you possibly accept the literal/historical fulfillment of OT biblical prophecy re: Messiah’s FIRST advent to his planet – while actually ignoring, or sweeping the other hundreds of prophetic references in both Old/New Covenants concerning Messiah’s SECOND, final advent to earth, under some theologically myopic rug?

          Tragically my friend, you’re missing so much of God’s entire redemptive “picture”; whose final consummate “Day of Yahweh” re: mankind’s closing historical days/hours on this planet, could very well have been set in motion through President Trump’s formal recognition of Jerusalem, as Israel’s capital city. Of course, one can easily locate such relevant facts of prophetic significance, found throughout the OT.

          So I encourage you to honestly ask yourself this question; in light of the current wholesale anti-semitism one can readily discern from the U.N., UNESCO, all Islamic nations, secular nations, and those curious factions within “professing Christianity”: Just when, during recorded human history, could the following some 2,500 year-old prophetic passage, have possibly contained the emerging potential for literal/historical fulfillment on planet earth?

          ☆ ☆ ☆

          “The oracle of the word of the Lord concerning Israel: Thus declares the Lord, who stretched out the heavens and founded the earth and formed the spirit of man within him:“ Behold, I am about to make Jerusalem a cup of staggering to all the surrounding peoples. The siege of Jerusalem will also be against Judah. On that day I [Yahweh] will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples. All who lift it will surely hurt themselves. And all the nations of the earth will gather against it.” (Zechariah 12:1-3/ESV).

          • stan schmunk

            Christianity is NOT biblical Judaism completed. Rather it’s the faith of Abraham completed in Abraham’s seed, who is Christ.

      • stan schmunk

        You might want to take a look at Hebrews 11: 8-16, 12: 22-24 and 13: 13-14 Even Abraham wasn’t looking for an earthly city.

        • davidrev17

          Stan, “context always determines meaning”; yet the very context in every one of those passages you just cited is no doubt transcendent, or “other-worldly” – as opposed to “this-worldly” – and thus indicates our eternal dwelling/structure, so obviously stated in the following text:

          “Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband” (Revelation 21:1-2).

          And there is NO conceivable way that WE rational/moral, specially-created spirit creatures called Homo sapiens, are currently dwelling upon a “new earth,” in a “new heaven” – where the very presence of SIN itself will have been eradicated forevermore – and in whose confines there exists “no more seas”!

          Plus, why would Abraham be thinking/pondering about an earthly location called Jerusalem, when he lived long-before it would’ve been an historical/geographical reality; although many rabbinical & Gentile scholars now believe that the actual location where Isaac was offered-up as a sacrifice in Genesis 22 – e.g., in the “land of Moriah,” or upon “Mt. Moriah” – was indeed the physical location in the much-later earthly Jerusalem, upon which the 1st & 2nd Jerusalem Temple structures had once stood – aka today’s 37-acre location called the Temple Mount??

          Hence, the present earthly city of Jerusalem, or “city of the Great King” (Matt. 5:35); the precise location where the very feet of the “King of Kings and Lord of Lords” will one day “touch down” upon the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:1-4) – “according to the Scriptures” – the exact location from which the Lord Yeshua/Jesus had ascended some 2,000 years prior.

          As I’ve already said: stay tuned…..

          • stan schmunk

            Did you even read the passages in Hebrews? They contradict you at every point.

    • Sam Mugote

      It has been my bother too, because we don’t bless Israel by not sharing Jesus with them, at least praying for their salvation. I amused my church when I said I could be one of the few people praying for the salvation of both Jews and Arabs.
      Getting Jerusalem back is just a sign of the hastening of the Kings Return and of that great and dreadful day for which scriptures even wonder why we should so desire it’s coming!. (Of course it as well says we must lift our eyes up as our redemption is drawing near).

  • Kees Langeveld

    Good article.

  • Lonnie Didden

    I’m Christian and I support Israel. Aside from moral considerations, I do not need religious reasons (either Jewish or Christian) to do so.

    • JudgeRight

      You’re saying that the NT does not matter as long as you have the right to your opinion. How arrogant. That entitlement to self-indulgent high mindedness is the reason why the church is following all sorts of false doctrines today. Of course, depending on what do you mean by “supporting” Israel. Do they have the right to have a state? Probably so, that’s not debated here. Should Christians insist that the contemporary state of Israel is fulfillment of God’s promises to his OT ethnic people? That’s where the “support for Israel” becomes delusional as to actually denying fundamental teachings of the Bible and twisting God’s promises.

      • Ryan

        Replacement theology violates the whole of scripture. Revelation is the culmination of both the Old and New Testaments.
        “For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
        and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.” Revelation 22:18, 19
        You don’t believe that God blesses those who bless Israel, fine, you won’t be blessed. Blessing from God comes with faith in Him and what He has said. He has said, “I will bless those who bless you,” speaking to Israel, “and I will curse those who curse you,” again, speaking to Israel.
        If you don’t feel blessed by supporting and blessing Israel it is your own fault. You don’t believe, All, of His word.

        • JudgeRight

          No, God does not bless those who bless Israel, speaking of the natural Jew (if they can be figured out who they are today), even less so the Jews that are such by conversion to Judaism; at least not in the New Testament. Why? Because we are in the New Testament. You cannot claim that both Old Testament and New Testament are equal if you believe in the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The New Testament is better testament. Jesus came to fulfill the law, by his redeeming death and resurrection, not to point to the law as a method of salvation; or even less so as cementing Jewish messianic nationalism.

          On the “blessing” issue.

          The way this blessing and cursing mantra is used today is based and grossly erroneous interpretation of Genesis 12:3. The interpretation of the Christian Zionists is that the blessing refers to Old Testament Israel. Ok, until the OT is in place. But it is not. The best interpretation of Gen. 12:3 is Gal. 3 where the apostle interprets exactly that passage and blessing. Let Scripture speak for itself.

          Genesis 12:3, God speaking to Abraham:
          “I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

          Galatians 3, the apostle speaking to the Galatians, fallen under the judaizing heresy which insists that the law saves (not that different from Christian Zionism):
          “16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. 17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18 For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.”

          I need not copy-paste the rest of the chapter, you can read it. In one sentence — the NT unequivocally states that those who are in Christ inherit the promise of Abraham. They are the offspring that will be blessed in the Abrahamic promises. Those are Christians, be they Jew or Gentile.

          Thus the proper reading of the Abahamic covenant must be in the light of the NT and the cross of Jesus. God will bless those who bless the Christians, followers of Jesus, God will curse those who curse His redeemed people, the believers in Jesus. Also confirmed in 1 Cor. 16:24. There is no separate covenant for non-believing Jews. They can freely join the one eternal covenant given to Abraham and fulfilled in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, there is no limitation for the Jew to repent and believe. That is what Paul means in Romans 9-11 that the Jews are not rejected, and are still loved by God. The “bless-OT-Israel-in-the-NT” theory is a complete misreading of the Bible and a fallacy.

          • Ryan

            You really are lost.

          • JudgeRight

            Explain why so I can be saved.

          • Ryan

            A person with an experience is never at the mercy of a person with an argument. All you have is an argument. That is all you care about. I place you RT people today with the scribes of Jesus time, He had no time for them and I have no time for you.

          • JudgeRight

            My argument is from the written Word of God. I do not claim to have an argument of my own and I think I’ve shown that. You call me a “scribe,” as if that were only negative, when you defend Judaism over the cross of Jesus and the prevalence of the Old Testament law over the New Covenant of faith? That is ironic.

          • Ryan

            When you separate the Jews from Jesus, you make the biggest mistake in scripture, Jesus was a Jew, how do you separate Him from the rest of the Jews? It was to the Jews He came first, not to the gentiles. The covenant with the Jews has never been broken, never. Gentiles are grafted in to the covenant with the Jews when they come to the knowledge of Christ and accept Him as their savior. To think of yourself as better than Jews, puts you above them. To put yourself above the Jews is to also put yourself above Christ, who is a Jew.

          • JudgeRight

            I do not separate Jews from Jesus. I simply point to the Jewish erroneous self-righteousness and political supremacy fallacy which was in the first place the reason why they crucified Jesus. Not only that they cursed themselves while killing the righteous One, and took the guilt for His blood on themselves and their children (Matt. 27:25). If it was any other nation they possibly, or almost surely, would have done the same. I have no hidden or special hatred for the Jews. However, to whom much is given much is required of. They crucified the Messiah whom they were awaiting and persecuted their own brothers in the flesh, who had accepted Him. Nothing has changed since then. I am not puting myself over the Jews either. I am only noting that they put themselves ABOVE THE ONLY TRUE SAVIOR AND THEIR MESSIAH — JESUS CHRIST THE LORD.

            I also insist that it is beyond absurd to reject the covenant of the Lord and insist that your are blessed under the covenant of the Lord. That is exactly what you and the rest of the supporters of the double covenant Judaizing theory. You explain away the very reason why

            Yes, Jesus came first to the Jew then (sent the apostles) to the Gentile. But if the Jew rejected Him the Jew is worse off than the Gentile who has repented and believed upon the Lord. Or from their own kin who are Christian. There is no other name which saves. The apostles preached that to their own kin (Acts 2) and those who were stung int he heart repented. The apostles even accused the Jews, their own kin, that they crucified their own righteous King. They did not tell them: “Oh, its OK, you killed Jesus the Messiah, but God loves you anyways, so you can keep on going as you are, you are that special.”

            Acts 2:23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

            Acts 2:36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”

            Acts 4:10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead—by him this man is standing before you well.

            Also — salvation is from the Jews but that salvation is to go to the nations. Jesus said it Himself many times. Like here, John 4, talking to the Samaritan woman:

            22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

            It is clearly a deceitful spirit that teaches that ethnicity saves you, be it of Jewish descent. If an unbelieving Jew repents and accepts Christ, they will then be entering into their true inheritance. No one is shunning them form doing that. But they just hate the name of Jesus as they did in the first century, except the elect ones whom God has called to salvation. They are the true Israel from among Israel.

          • davidrev17

            “Not only that they cursed themselves while killing the righteous One, and took the guilt for His blood on themselves and their children…” (Matt. 27:25)

            ▪ ▪ ▪

            For someone of whom only reads the New Covenant Scriptures, I was stunned to recognize another MAJOR error in your overall theological myopia, manifestly evident just above, in what seems to be your carefully concealed antisemitic exuberance.

            Naturally, I’m referring to YOUR (like Martin Luther, John Chrysostom et al.) erroneous thinking, once again, that their [the Jewish people & religious leaders’] declaration shouted out in (Matthew 27:25) wound-up creating some sort of a PERPETUAL “curse,” that was self-imposed upon the nation of Israel and its Jewish people, for having (for the most part) rejected their own Messiah.

            This activity also included the religious leaders’ complicity in arranging for the Lord Jesus’ execution at the hands of the Gentile Romans; under whose formal occupation as slaves, the judgment and imposition of “capital punishment” upon any Jewish citizen – had been relinquished or forfeited.

            Yet, seemingly unrecognized by you in all of this, was the fact that in doing exactly what they were ALL carrying-out, the inscrutably precise fulfillment of (OT) biblical prophecy, on the part of both Jew & Gentile, was mysteriously being Divinely choreographed in that “generation”; since it’s obvious that Yeshua wasn’t a hapless/helpless victim in all of this intrigue taking place by “fallen” sinful human beings – against the fully-human, yet fully-Divine “Son of God,” or “God the Son.” (e.g., Matthew 16:21; 26:52-54; Luke 24:25-27, 44-49; Galatians 4:4; or the very verse you cite above [Acts 2:23], yet miss the implications of this in its opening words.)

            But I digress here. My main point is, like I said at the outset, pointing-out another egregious error of biblical exegesis and interpretation you’re making (aka “adding to the Word of God”), by personally employing this bizarre notion that the nation of Israel & its Jewish people have been rejected, or forsaken by Yahweh for all perpetuity; when in point of fact, it was only “that GENERATION” of whom suffered for their collective SIN of rejecting the Messiah, culminating in the catastrophic events of AD 70, about which Jesus had so penetratingly prophesied in his “Olivet Discourse.” That’s been some 2,000 years now. And the Lord Jesus makes this critically relevant point crystal-clear – for all-time – in the following passage below.

            Please read this carefully, because once again – ever since 1948 (and 1967) – the Creator “God of restoration” himself, has strategically choreographed the physical return of His Jewish people in our time, out of the ashes of ancient history at that; through and by which loving and merciful process, He’ll one day be glorified in bringing about their [Jewish people’s] “spiritual” restoration, as He will “…judge the world in righteousness by a man whom He’s appointed, having given assurance to all people by raising him [Yeshua/Jesus] from the dead.” (Acts 17:30-31)

            ▪ ▪ ▪

            “When the crowds were increasing, he began to say, “THIS GENERATION IS AN EVIL GENERATION. It seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah. For as Jonah became a sign to the people of Nineveh, so will the Son of Man be to this generation. THE QUEEN OF THE SOUTH WILL RISE UP AT THE JUDGMENT WITH THE MEN OF THIS GENERATION AND CONDEMN THEM, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, something greater than Solomon is here. The men of Nineveh WILL RISE UP AT THE JUDGMENT WITH THIS GENERATION AND CONDEMN IT, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here…

            “Therefore also the Wisdom of God said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and persecute,’ so that the blood of all the prophets, shed from the foundation of the world, MAY BE CHARGED AGAINST THIS GENERATION, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who perished between the altar and the sanctuary. YES I TELL YOU, IT WILL BE REQUIRED OF THIS GENERATION. Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter yourselves, and you hindered those who were entering” (Luke 11:29-32, 49-52/ESV, emphasis added).

          • stan schmunk

            So you agree with Jack Van Impe when he said that God doesn’t hold a grudge anymore for what they did to Jesus or John Hagee’s teaching that we shouldn’t witness to the Jews because they have a special relationship with God?

          • davidrev17

            What I’m in wholehearted agreement with Stan, is the plain teaching in the Word of God – just like what I’ve posted right above from the mouth of the Lord Jesus! Also, If you’ll read Revelation 13:8, you’ll see where the Lord Jesus is called “the Lamb of God slain before time began.” Hope you can make the connection.

            Now, if you’re still grappling with the facts here, of which couldn’t possibly be made any clearer, then you have a very serious spiritual “blind spot,” that can only be resolved, or remedied by the “Spirit of Truth” Himself. But since you’re “fighting against God” and don’t even know it; or refuse to simply repent, and begrudgingly confess those three impossible words for we prideful fallen humans to utter, aka “I WAS WRONG” – then you may very well be dealing with an even more unenviable spiritual condition – namely the chastening of the Lord??

            And as for the tragically errant teaching of John Hagee, and others like him who traffic in what’s called “Dual Covenant Theology” – I’ve already made myself crystal-clear in another post on this thread; as in I completely reject this biblically twisted, insidious form of “easy believism” re: the Jewish people in general.

          • Ryan

            I hope you read Davidrev’s comment below. He covered it pretty well. But I somehow doubt you will read more than a couple sentences and not read it as you will have to do some rethinking. Something people in cults like you are in will not do without your handlers guidance.

          • JudgeRight

            Cults? Since when faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and insisting on Scriptural and NT validity is a “cult?” You’re condemning yourself by your own words, being the follower of the fallacy of proposing that the law is greater than the Law-Giver. Wrap your mind around this.

          • stan schmunk

            He’s actually exactly right.

          • Ryan

            See my answer above.

        • stan schmunk

          That promise only is to Abraham’s seed, who is Christ. Only believers partake in that promise. You might want to read Deuteronomy 28.

      • Lonnie Didden

        What? Where did I say that the New Testament doesn’t matter? You appear to be looking for an argument just for the sake of having an argument. What is or is not being debated here is decided by those who enter the debate, if you didn’t wish to validate my comment as part of that debate then you were free to ignore it. It is not up to you to set yourself up as moderater of what may be discussed. (talk about “arrogance”….)

        • JudgeRight

          I quote your own words “I’m Christian and I support Israel. Aside from moral considerations, I do not need religious reasons (either Jewish or Christian) to do so.” Isn’t this saying what I read it to say? I am assuming that by you not needing “religious reasons” you mean teachings of the Scriptures. I take your statement to say that you are the final judge of support for Israel, based on your moral, or what you perceive to be moral, values. Aren’t you just saying: “I have set my mind and that is enough for me”? Well, maybe I am wrong…and surely I don’t pretend to be a moderator 😉

  • Ryan

    The Lord has placed His name in Jerusalem, those of us who take the name of the Lord on our lives and are grafted into the vine, should also recognize Jerusalem as His capitol. Until the thousand years of His rule on earth are ended, it will be His capitol. Then there will be the new Heaven, the new Earth and the new Jerusalem. Israel is going to be the center of the earth for a thousand years, Jerusalem will be the center of worship because the Lord will be there.
    Those who refuse to recognize Jerusalem as the capitol of Israel now, will do so in the very near future.
    It is written, it will happen.

  • Dena

    Hamas is declaring a “Day of Rage” on Friday. You can’t work with people who call for terrorism when they don’t get their way. There can be no peace as long as they consider the Jewish people illegitimate. The Jewish people have the right for Jerusalem to be their capital.

    I expect God to bless President Trump and our nation for blessing Israel. No President has been bold enough to make this move.

  • Jenny Johnson

    Donald Trump didn’t just start “blessing” Israel yesterday. He (and his familly) have been blessing Israel for many, many years providing jobs, council, community support. For years I’ve wondered if Trump’s financial success (and now preaidential achievement) has been a result of years of his blessings toward the Jewish community. It is a little sad to read your expectation that God’s blessings might begin to pour out on POTUS and America now as a result of yesterday’s announcement. Yesterday’s announcement was just the capston refecting years of the love and support he has demonstrated toward the Jewish people. All the vitriol toward candidate-now-President Trump has been heartbreaking to watch, especially coming from the Christian community. But okay… a positive article for a change is refreshing.

    Sha’alu shalom Yerushalayim, Yishlayu ohavayich

    • stan schmunk

      God has never promised blessings to unrepentant Israel, only curses and judgement. Some of us need to read Deuteronomy 28 and Hebrews 11.

      • davidrev17

        Out of the almost 8,000 verses in the Greek NT, we find the rabbinical scholar Sha’ul of Tarsus, or Apostle Paul, making this single isolated reference to the “Israel of God,” in Galatians 6:16:

        “For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.” (Galatians 6:15-16/ESV).

        Does that mean you Preterist’s believe that the NT “Church” (or “ekklesia”), is actually Israel then, in your New Covenant theology?? If so, wouldn’t this position represent the logical equivalent of Replacement Theology – literally being turned on its head? I mean, one verse is hardly the appropriate foundation upon which to construct an entire theological system?

        And neither can the phrase “Israel of God” be found throughout the OT?? Hmmm…help me out here, will ya!

        • stan schmunk

          Who the true Israel is is explained clearly in John 8, Romans and Galatians. Those of us of faith in Christ are the true Jews and the true Israel. That’s not replacement it’s fulfillment. Hebrew puts all of us in the same class.

        • JudgeRight

          Yes and no. Israel of God in the OT are the Jews. And more so those Jews who follow God. IN the NT Israel of God are the heirs of Israel, the heirs of Abraham, or those who are of faith. There is no mechanical REPLACEMENT of the Jews by the Church as if these are two separate entities coming from two separate origins. That’s what the Zionist want us to believe. No, simply the expectation of the Jewish messiah was fulfilled in Christ (remember Simeon’s pronouncement about the birth of Jesus?). Jews were, and still are welcome to join the people of God by faith, but they (or most of them) refuse.

          No, the JEWS REPLACED THEMSELVES as the people of God by rejecting Christ. Now they want, along with Zionist Christians to convince us that we have to twist the Gospel of Christ and look backwards so they justify their unbelief. The offer of God’s forgiveness in Christ is still open to them. What is stopping them from repenting and believing? And what is pushing Zionist Christians to continue stopping the Jews from repenting and believing in the True Messiah?

  • Sam Mugote

    Probably my I understanding of wider issues is limited. My eternal question is why Christians tend to be more concerned about the welfare of the physical Jew than about their knowledge of their saviour. Jews must know Jesus very quickly even as the City of the Great King is finally brought back under their control.
    Is just loving the Israeli what causes God’s blessing or opportunity to have them be blessed eternally? Jews (naturally reject Jesus) are going to hell by the hundreds of thousands but somehow we seem blinded. I see YouTube videos of them spitting in the faces of gospel preachers and yet nobody seems that bothered. Help me.

    • davidrev17

      Great insight my brother! Yet think back to how WE Gentiles, and they, the Jewish leaders of the day – of whom should’ve know better -ultimately treated God the Son, some 2,000 years ago; while strangely fulfilling the inscrutably prophetic word of God in the process, for the eternal salvation of “whosoever will” at that?

      • stan schmunk

        Please read the next 6-8 verses in Romans 9 and the preview at the end of Romans 2. They’re exceptionally clear.

    • JudgeRight

      Praying for the Jews to repent and believe is a praiseworthy activity and ministry. It is different however, from asserting the Zionist false doctrine that the Jews have a separate covenant outside of the name and the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And that is exactly what Christian Zionism is asserting.

    • Kathy

      You are so right, Sam…the Jewish people MUST accept their Messiah. As a Christian, I attended a Messianic Jewish Synagogue (Jewish believers in Yeshua) for about a year. It was a very enlightening experience. I asked the rabbi about supporting certain Jewish organizations and he suggested I focus on the ones that concentrate on evangelizing the Jewish people and not the ones that, like you said, are just concerned with their physical welfare. We are not doing them any favors at all by ignoring their rejection of Jesus.

      • MorganCourtenay

        The Jewish rejection of Jesus is based on the unnecessary nature of Christian foundational doctrine, and on its fundamental incompatibility with the Jewish faith. Jesus did not meet the criteria for the Jewish Messiah, and therefore cannot be accepted as such.

        • Kathy

          I understand your comment regarding “meeting the criteria for the Jewish Messiah”, but not sure about “the unnecessary nature of Christian foundational doctrine”.

          • MorganCourtenay

            I am happy to clarify this. Christianity states that man needs a Savior in the flesh who can atone for the world’s sins. Why is this necessary? Judaism already had a sacrificial system for unintentional sins, and furthermore extolled the value of prayer and wholehearted repentance in gaining forgiveness. Nowhere in the Jewish Scriptures is there support for the idea of vicarious atonement. A priest in the old sacrificial system offering himself as an atonement for another’s sin would have been a complete abomination. Furthermore, Christianity asserts a Trinitarian understanding of God. Putting aside the question of whether this is backed up by Jewish teachings, why is a Trinitarian understanding of Gd necessary? What is revealed by Gd via a Trinity that was not already revealed in the Jewish Bible? After all, Gd appeared in the Garden of Eden and was present in various other physical forms throughout the Hebrew Scriptures. What does the Trinitarian understanding actually add? Christianity furthermore constricts the avenues for man’s salvation. Whilst Judaism offers a chance to all the nations without the necessity of converting, Christianity assumes an elect who will be saved if they accept Jesus, and no hope for anyone else. This is not a hopeful doctrine to me. I have other considerations in this argument, but those are the main ones.

          • Kathy

            Thanks for your reply! I will get back to you on it as soon as I can.

          • JudgeRight

            Quote: “Nowhere in the Jewish Scriptures is there support for the idea of vicarious atonement. A priest in the old sacrificial system offering himself as an atonement for another’s sin would have been a complete abomination.”

            For people with such views Jesus clearly said: “But Jesus answered them, “You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God” Matt. 22:29.

            I don’t know about the “Jewish Scriptures” but all the Old Testament Scriptures (Torah) law and the prophets point to the coming of the Messiah to offer vicarious atonement.

            Secondly, what is the problem with giving you a free will to accept the Savior or reject Him and face the consequences?

          • Kathy

            I have sent you the same message two times, but it keeps saying “this is waiting to be approved by the Stream. Have no idea what the problem is.

  • It all depends upon whether America has today’s Israelites identified correctly.

    I wonder if the following quotations (all of them from respected Jewish sources) might not have something to do with this:

    “Strictly speaking, it is incorrect to call an ancient Israelite a ‘Jew’ or to call a contemporary Jew an ‘Israelite’ or a ‘Hebrew.’” (Richard Siegel and Carl Rheins, eds., “Identity Crisis,” The Jewish Almanac, (New York, NY: Bantam Books, 1980) p. 3.)

    That sentence is the opening sentence of the First Chapter entitled “Identity Crisis” of the 1980 Jewish Almanac. That today’s Jews are not genetic Israelites but merely proselytes to Judaism, not to be confused with the Old Testaments Israelites religion based upon Yahweh’s moral law) is also admitted in “The Jewish Encyclopedia,” the “Enyclopedia Judaica,” “The Universal Jewish Encyclopedia,” “The Standard Jewish Encyclopedia,” and by many of their historians.

    According to three Jewish encyclopedias and Flavius Josephus, the entire Edomite nation was forced into converting to Judaism and became known as Judahites at the time of the high priest John Hyrcanus (Maccabaeus):

    “…in the days of John Hyrcanus (end of the second century B.C.E.) … the Edomites became a section of the Jewish people.” (“Edom,” Encyclopaedia Judaica (Jerusalem, Israel: Encyclopaedia Judaica Company, 1971) Volume 6, p. 378.)

    “They were then incorporated with the Jewish nation….” (“Edom, Idumea,” The Jewish Encyclopedia (New York & London: Funk and Wagnalls Company, 1904) Volume V, p. 41.)

    “…from then on they constituted a part of the Jewish people, Herod [King of Judea] being one of their descendants.” (Cecil Roth and Geoffrey Wigoden, “Edom (Idumea),” The New Standard Jewish Encyclopedia (Garden City, NY: Doubleday & Company, Inc., 1977) p. 589.)

    “…they submitted to the use of circumcision, and the rest of the Jewish ways of living; at which time … they were hereafter no other than Jews.” (Flavius Josephus, “The Antiquities of the Jews,” Josephus, (Grand Rapids, MI: Kregel Publications, 1960) Book XIII, Chapter IX, Verse 1, p. 279.)

    We keep hearing that if we don’t bless the modern State of Israel (which America has been doing since at least 1948) that we will be cursed. However, it seems it’s been just the opposite, Since 1948, you name it, and there’s not an area in America wherein she hasn’t become worse off. Could it because America has identified the wrong people as Israel.

    Today’s Jews are not the only ones with an identity crisis.

    For more, Google free online book “The Mystery of the Gentiles: Where Are They and Where Are They Now?”

  • Logan van Engelen

    No, god does not bless Trump nor America for this decision. Everything going on there is completely pointless, as there is no such thing as Holy Land, people made that up themselves. It really is ridiculous that people keep on going on and on about it. And then you have the people going on about Ezekiel 38, while the guy was a complete lunatic. People gonna figure this out or what? Are you? Have a nice day!!

  • MorganCourtenay

    I must congratulate Trump for having the moral fortitude (for once) to recognize Jerusalem as Israel’s capital. The uproar is absurd and hypocritical, if only for the reason that the Palestinians have no legitimate national claim to Jerusalem. Never has Psalm 2 been more relevant today: “Why have the nations gathered and kingdoms think vain things… Kings of a land stand up and nobles take counsel together against the Lord and his Anointed?”

To God be the Glory
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