Why the Rejection of the Nashville Statement on Sexuality is a Rejection of the Bible

For Bible-believing Christians, what is there to disagree with?

The Nashville Statement covers the most basic of the basics, reaffirming what the Church (and Synagogue) have believed about marriage and sexuality for two millennia

By Michael Brown Published on September 3, 2017

If a group of astronomers issued a major document stating that the earth revolves around the sun and the moon revolves around the earth, it would be greeted with a shrug of the shoulders. Who didn’t know that? Why, then, has a recent statement by Christian leaders affirming the basics of biblical sexuality been greeted with such protest from other professing Christian leaders? It is because these other “Christian” leaders have rejected the authority of the Word of God.

For those who haven’t read the Nashville Statement, the Babylon Bee, a Christian satirical website, actually sums things up well, and with some well-placed sarcasm:

It says some really controversial stuff for Bible-believing Christians, like that God made Adam and Eve as (trigger warning) male and female, that marriage was created by God to be the union between one man and one woman, that He loves people with gender dysphoria and same-sex attraction even if He doesn’t approve of all of their actions, and that He offers His grace and mercy to sinners of all stripes.

Yes, just the most basic of the basics, reaffirming what the Church (and Synagogue) have believed about marriage and sexuality for two millennia and offering grace and mercy to all. That’s why, when I was asked to be one of the initial signatories, I signed on without hesitation. What was there to disagree with?

LGBT Activists Attack the Nashville Statement

Yet in response to the Nashville Statement a headline on the Huffington Post declared, “Hundreds Of Christian Leaders Denounce Anti-LGBTQ ‘Nashville Statement.’” The Post called the statement “divisive and bizarrely-timed.” It noted that it “drew harsh criticism from many other Christians, members of the LGBTQ community and even the mayor of Nashville.”

Need I tell you that this article was penned by Antonia Blumberg for the Post’s “Queer Voices” section?

Of course LGBT activists and their allies will condemn a statement that reaffirms God’s standards for marriage and sexuality. Why should that occasion surprise?

Likewise, a September 1 op-ed piece in the New York Times stated:

This week, an influential group of evangelical Christians publicly doubled down on intolerance in a message about lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people that represents a renewed commitment to open bigotry.

Yes, “The Nashville Statement’s harm is more than symbolic. The hateful beliefs it endorses have real-life, devastating consequences.”

And who is the author of this article? Eliel Cruz, a self-described “leading bisexual activist.”

Are you seeing a pattern here?

The ‘Problem’ is With the Bible, Not the Statement 

The problem is not with the Nashville Statement. It is with the Bible, since the statement only reaffirms what the Bible clearly teaches. Namely that: 1) God made humans male and female; 2) marriage, as intended by God, is the lifelong union of a man and a woman; 3) homosexual practice is always sinful in God’s sight; 4) God offers forgiveness for all human beings through the cross of Jesus; and 5) those who struggle with same-sex attraction or gender identity confusion can be welcomed into the Body of Christ like any other struggling individual, as long as they do not celebrate or affirm that which is wrong.

And that’s why a counter-statement, called the Nazareth Statement, issued by LGBT “Christian” leaders and their allies, affirms all the talking points of LGBT activism, including:

  • That “our wide spectrum of unique sexualities and gender identities is a perfect reflection of the magnitude of God’s creative work” and that is wrong to limit God’s creative intent “to a gender binary or that God’s desire for human romantic relationships is only to be expressed in heterosexual relationships between one man and one woman.”
  • That it is wrong to argue that “God intended human romantic relationships to be limited to one man and one woman.”
  • That is unhealthy to force “individuals to embrace a gender identity that matches the cultural assumptions based on their biology.”
  • That one cannot judge Christian orthodoxy based on views about homosexuality but that is not Christlike to hold to traditional Christian teaching on homosexuality or to refuse “to openly dialogue with LGBT+ people.”

Talk about turning the Bible upside down!

According to this counter-statement, gender is what you perceive it to be. Your biology doesn’t determine your gender. Men can have God-blessed sex with men and women can have God-blessed sex with women, provided it is “covenantal.” And it is unchristian to uphold Christian standards of marriage and sexuality.

That’s why I say that people who have a problem with the Nashville Statement have a problem with God and His Word. It’s that simple.

What’s Trump Got to Do With It?

There is, however, one more angle to discuss, and that is the connection to Donald Trump.

You might ask, “What in the world does President Trump have to do with this statement on sexuality?”

It appears that some Christian leaders are upset with the statement because some of the signers endorsed Trump or serve on his advisory faith council, as if this somehow disqualifies a biblical statement from being biblical. What kind of logic is this? And what of the fact that other signers were strong Trump critics? And what of signers like Rosaria Butterfield and Christopher Yuan, both of whom came out of homosexual practice and are compassionate gospel witnesses with a non-political message of reconciliation?

A misleading headline in the Washington Post reads, “Why even conservative evangelicals are unhappy with the anti-LGBT Nashville Statement.”

The Nashville Statement should be affirmed by all those who love Jesus, love the Bible, and love the LGBT community.

Yes, “‘Had white evangelicals leaders … withheld support for Mr. Trump after the infamous ‘Access Hollywood’ tapes, maybe their opposition to same-sex marriage would be viewed … as a principled, rather than a bigoted, position,’ said Skye Jethani, a prominent Chicago-area pastor and author.”

With all respect to Rev. Jethani, virtually every evangelical leader I know expressed disgust with those tapes. Some of those leaders spoke directly to candidate Trump about them (and in strong terms). And all agreed that this was an ugly part of his past that he himself regretted.

And does Rev. Jethani really believe that liberal Christians, LGBT activists, and the secular media would have greeted our statement on biblical sexuality any differently today if none of us had voted for Trump? Does he really think that we were not already mocked and vilified for the principled, biblical stand we had taken for many years prior to this?

Love and Truth Go Hand in Hand

The Babylon Bee asks the question, “Who has signed the Nashville Statement?” The answer?

A whole mob of fringe, hate-filled bigots with zero credibility, such as John Piper, J.I. Packer, Mark Dever, R.C. Sproul, John MacArthur, Al Mohler, Russell Moore, Francis Chan, and Matt Chandler. Just look at that list of theological lightweights — couldn’t they at least have gotten some people who’ve proven themselves as faithful witnesses of Christ?

In contrast, the Washington Post quoted from almost no nationally recognized conservative evangelical voices, despite its bold headline.

The Bee also notes, with full sarcasm:

That those supporting the Nashville Statement are not doing so because they believe the Word of God, but because they are homophobic, neo-nazi white supremacists who worship Donald Trump — which makes sense, as long as you don’t think about it for longer than about three seconds.

Precisely so.

I’m all for dialogue with professing LGBT Christians. I have often apologized for the church’s past failures in our treatment of those who identify as LGBT. And I constantly preach on the need for a baptism of love for those who identify as LGBT.

But love and truth go hand in hand. Which is why the Nashville Statement should be affirmed by all those who love Jesus, love the Bible, and love the LGBT community.

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  • JM

    Homosexuals want to LGBTQnize the Bible and want to remove any mention of homosexuality from it and remove heterosexuality from the Bible and rewritten to be anything goes. all homosexuals just need to do is repent. not ask for acceptance and tolerance. not rewrite the Bible. just repent. people love sin and do not want to give it up and that is problem here. homosexuals love that sin and do not want to stop doing it. people do not want to accept God unless he accepts their sin. sorry But God is never going to accept sin.

    • Exactly why should the social mores and traditions of ancient Israel be relevant to a more enlightened 21st century society? Law governing diet, dress, planting crops, menstruation, cutting hair, etc? How are they applicable today? Or do YOU, like so many others, pick and choose which laws you wish to obey or ignore?

      • JM

        Not all laws were written for everyone. some laws written for israelites only. laws forbidding homosexual practice was written for everyone and still apply today.

        • Presumably God changed his mind about a few things along the way. I wish He could send a new avatar every hundred years or so to bring us up to date. I’d love to know what He thinks about nuclear weapons or women having the right to vote.

          • Hannah

            Hebrews 13:8 would like a word with you.

          • Pigdowndog

            He is as the verse says “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.”
            A myth.

          • Shaquille Harvey

            Yet no credible scholars treats Jesus of Nazareth as such.

          • Kevin Carr

            Persumably, where?

          • GPS Daddy

            Atheists need to stop commenting on the bible… it makes them look really dumb.

          • Chip Crawford

            More like ignorant … they are addressed:
            Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

          • GPS Daddy

            Well, were are all ignorant about something. But it amazes me that atheists THINK they are experts on the bible yet do face plants again and again.

          • Chip Crawford

            Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
            Seeing truth, becoming converted is a miracle. But it happened to me, to you … to them if they will open … It takes the power or grace of God on them …

          • AndRebecca

            I think He would be fine with both. It depends on right and wrong. Good and evil uses of each.

        • el_polacko

          hilarious. you claim not to be picking and choosing as you pick and choose what you think is “written for everyone”.

      • Kevin Carr

        You cite O.T. law, Christ didn’t abolish the law he fulfilled it, even in the N.T.. there is not one positive affirmation of homosexuality, as there is none for adultery, fornication, lying, you get the picture. What Christ did was satisfy the Law, so we don’t have to. You can choose to live life as if God does not exist or you can choose him.

        • Trilemma

          There is for lying.

          • GPS Daddy

            Your comment makes no sense.

          • Trilemma

            Kevin Carr said there was not one positive affirmation for lying in the Bible. But Rahab was commended for lying to her people about the location of the Israelite spies.

          • GPS Daddy

            You missed one: Exodus 1:15-21… I would respond but your mind is made up. How is that spreading doubt business going? Have you undermined any Christian’s faith today?

          • Trilemma

            Thanks for pointing out that verse. Paul commended the Bereans for having doubt.

          • GPS Daddy

            Talk about taking a verse out of context. Your response again shows your heart, Trilemma. Your purpose here is not to shows someone a better way or to try and free someone from bondage. Rather, it is to undermine anyone’s faith you can. Things like bitterness and unforgiveness lead to such a heart condition.

          • Dena

            Reminds me what it says in Romans 1.

            “Since they thought it foolish to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their foolish thinking and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, quarreling, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They invent new ways of sinning, and they disobey their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, are heartless, and have no mercy. They know God’s justice requires that those who do these things deserve to die, yet they do them anyway. Worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too.”
            ‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:28-32‬ ‭NLT‬‬

          • GPS Daddy

            So true.

        • Dena

          Well said.

      • Shaquille Harvey

        I already explained to you about the differences of the laws I. The Old Testament. Not all laws were universal or moral laws which sexual morality was apart of. There also ceremonial much of what you cover and civil laws as well as laws that could have a basis for being more than one.

      • GPS Daddy

        Real enlightened… men mutilate their bodies to make others think their women and we call that normal. Children are given puberty blocking drugs so they can fool themselves and try to fool others they are the opposite sex. Yep, real enlightened.

      • AndRebecca

        There are the Ten Commandments. The big ten. And the truth never changes.

  • KPX-2017

    it’s time to leave behind this masquerade unjustly called Church, and embrace the true Body Of Christ. That utter minority that still holds on to what Jesus taught, and refuses to bow down to the deceit that is so prevalent in “churches” today.

    • JM

      Where did Jesus say that it okay for a man to lie with another man?

      • KPX-2017

        I agree with you, He didn’t. That’s why I left this cult, because it either turns a blind eye to it, or condones and celebrates it. The “church” today has moved so far from the words of Jesus, it almost completely exchanged the truth for a lie. In my “church” we had a lesbian worship leader, and the “pastor” knew she’s into that. I am not saying she shouldn’t be loved, accepted and pointed to Christ, I am saying our “pastor” did not mind that lifestyle.

        • JM

          Oh, I didn’t read your comment correctly, sorry about that.

          • KPX-2017

            No worries! 🙂

  • Evolution, psychology, cosmology, quantum physics ….. ALL are a “rejection” of the Bible, if that’s the way you want to view it. Nevertheless: “Science is true, whether or not you want to believe in it.” -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    • TellstheTruth

      Really? God said, “Let there be light.” Kind of sounds like the Big Bang, don’t you think? And it was a Catholic who first developed the big bang theory.

      • Pigdowndog

        “God said, “Let there be light.” Kind of sounds like the Big Bang, don’t you think?”
        No. Sounds more like a stage magician saying “abracadabra”.
        “And it was a Catholic who first developed the big bang theory.”
        So what. Doesn’t make his supernatural beliefs true.

        • Shaquille Harvey

          Yet many secularists at the time did not want believe or except this and rathered have believed the universe was eternal.

    • Patmos

      The theory of evolution has an abundance of holes in it. Psychology has a coke head as one of it’s founders. Cosmology and quantum physics are probably the two fields in science that are the closest to catching up to the truths of the Bible.

      Why are you such a bitter and stubborn hearted person? Who betrayed you to make you recoil in fear?

      • Hmmm…

        It’s called a theory for a reason …

    • AndRebecca

      Right, and science says there is human male and female reproduction. So males and females mate. Not two men or two women.

  • Interesting how the man in the photo is covered with tattoos. (Lev. 19:28)

    • KPX-2017

      Also prohibited in the Bible: “You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor tattoo any marks on you” – Leviticus 19:28

      • Steve Bryar

        So is eating shell fish?

        • Shaquille Harvey

          I explained this to chuck about the differences of the laws of The Old Testament. Not all laws were universal or moral laws which sexual morality was apart of. There also ceremonial much of what you cover and civil laws as well as laws that could have a basis for being more than one.

          • el_polacko

            ..and yet you and those who drafted this “statement” rely almost completely on the old testament to judge others. there’s plenty in the book of leviticus alone that most ‘believers’ completely ignore in their daily lives while they obsess about people who happen to be gay because “it’s in the bible”.

          • Shaquille Harvey

            Homosexuality is condemned in both the New and the old testaments.

            “there’s plenty in the book of leviticus alone that most ‘believers’ completely ignore in their daily lives ”
            Which are ?

          • AndRebecca

            The people who drafted the statement have given sermons, written books and articles on this subject over the years. They know far more about the Bible than you will in a millions years.

        • Hmmm…

          The dietary laws are maximum healthful, like not eating animals and sea life that are the garbage eaters of their system and other principles that are supported today. We don’t have a prohibition as such, but God had his people’s best interests in mind in these, long before science and medicine discovered how these things work, which they are still doing.

        • KPX-2017

          WOW…bet you heard that somewhere. Because your very quoting it the way you, proves you’ve no idea about the context for that commandment.

    • Patmos

      People can get tattoos before they are saved. Nice fail.

    • GPS Daddy

      I always find it interesting when atheists think they have a handle on the bible.

  • JM

    where do homosexuals and these pro homosexual ”christians” get these pro LGBT beliefs from? I have read the Bible and I did not see any support for homosexuality at all. ”That “wide spectrum of unique sexualities and gender identities is a perfect reflection of the magnitude of God’s creative work” and that is wrong to limit God’s creative intent “to a gender binary or that God’s desire for human romantic relationships is only to be expressed in heterosexual relationships between one man and one woman.” really? where did God say he wants to some people to be homosexual? whenever sexuality is discussed in the Bible, it is always heterosexuality. homosexuals say that homosexuality is not a sin but the fact that they want the Bible to be rewritten is admitting that homosexuality is a sin. the fact that many homosexuals refuse to debate experts like Dr.Brown is admitting that homosexuality is a sin. if homosexuality was not a sin like these homosexuals say, then they wouldn’t be so afraid to debate Dr.Brown but they are. which means that know they are wrong and that homosexuality is a sin. the only reason why someone would avoid debate is because that persons knows he’s wrong. homosexuals just need to repent. not ask the church to change views. not ask the church for acceptance and tolerance. not ask for the Bible to be rewritten. just repent, like we are told to do. what is it about this sin that homosexuals love so much that they are not willing to give it up?

    • Pigdowndog

      “where do homosexuals and these pro homosexual ”christians” get these pro LGBT beliefs from?”
      Common humanity, unlike religious bigots.

      “I have read the Bible and I did not see any support for homosexuality at all.”
      Totally irrelevant book of nonsense.

      “where did God say he wants to some people to be homosexual?”
      He didn’t as comic book characters can’t speak.

      “homosexuality is a sin. ”
      No such thing as “sin”. A silly religious construct.

      “what is it about this sin that homosexuals love so much that they are not willing to give it up?”
      They can’t “give it up” because it’s their natural sexuality.
      One last thing.
      Why do god-botherers deem it necessary to poke their nose into consenting adults bedrooms.
      Mind your own business. Nothing to do with you whatsoever.

      • Shaquille Harvey

        What common humanity?

      • JM

        ”They can’t “give it up” because it’s their natural sexuality.” no, it’s not

        • Jeremy L

          What is their natural sexuality then? Heterosexuality? If so, why would they seek same sex relationships in the first place? Your question is silly. You might as well have asked why a straight man can’t just give up finding women hot.

          • JM

            Gay activist and history professor John D’Emilio stated the following about your assertion: “‘Born gay’ is an idea with a large constituency, LGBT and otherwise. It’s an idea designed to allay the ingrained fears of a homophobic society and the internalized fears of gays, lesbians and bisexuals. What’s most amazing to me about the ‘born gay’ phenomenon is that the scientific evidence for it is thin as a reed, yet it doesn’t matter. It’s an idea with such social utility that one doesn’t need much evidence in order to make it attractive and credible.”

            In other words, because the “born gay” idea has proved so useful, the fact that there’s virtually no scientific support for the theory hardly matters. It’s an idea that has worked wonders for gay activists and their allies.

            Also, as noted years ago by gay scientist Simon LeVay, “There [was] a survey in The New York Times that broke down people on the basis of whether they thought gays and lesbians were born that way or whether it was a lifestyle choice. Across the board, those who thought gays and lesbians were born that way were more liberal and gay friendly.”

            One of the most gay-friendly professional organizations in our country is the American Psychological Association, and yet even the APA states that, “There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay, or lesbian orientation.”

            Similarly, in England, the pro-gay Royal College of Psychiatrists backtracked on an earlier statement that homosexuality was biologically determined, now saying that “sexual orientation is determined by a combination of biological and postnatal environmental factors.”

            That’s why psychiatrist Nathaniel S. Lehrman, former chairperson of the Task Force on Religion and Mental Health said in 2005, “Researchers now openly admit that after searching for more than 20 years, they are still unable to find the ‘gay gene'” (in the Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons).

            Why then do we constantly hear about people being born gay such as yourself? First, it has worked wonders for gay activism; second, many gays and lesbians believe it to be true, since as far back as they can remember, they felt that they were different.

            But political expediency and personal feelings do not change the facts, and those facts remain the same: There is no clear scientific evidence that anyone is born gay

            According to lesbian researcher Lisa Diamond, “The queer community has been obsessed with cultivating the idea that we all have fixed sexual identities. We’ve crafted terrific narratives and political platforms based on the notions that all gays are ‘born that way.’ But what if sexuality is more complex? What if biology actually intersects with environment, time, culture and context? Could we possibly be more fluid than we’ve supposed?”

            Camille Paglia, a social critic, academic, feminist and lesbian, was even more blunt, famously stating in her book Vamps and Tramps, “Our sexual bodies were designed for reproduction. … No one is born gay. The idea is ridiculous … homosexuality is an adaptation, not an inborn trait.”

            Paglia also asked, “Is the gay identity so fragile that it cannot bear the thought that some people may not wish to be gay? Sexuality is highly fluid, and reversals are theoretically possible.”

            So based on those who have studied this topic extensively, and who are either gay themselves, or who are very pro homosexual, the evidence for being “born gay” does not exist. So until being “born gay” can be proven, its a choice of lifestyle.

          • Jeremy L

            Experiencing sexual attractions to ANYONE is not a freaking “choice of lifestyle”. The factors that determine whom someone finds sexy – be it biological, environmental, genetic, or WHATEVER are not relevant to this basic, incredibly easy to understand concept!! Even if sexuality IS learned, that doesn’t mean it can be changed! Even if sexuality CAN be fluid, that doesn’t mean people are consciously in charge of the direction of their sexual feelings and automatic erotic responses! Even if our bodies are geared toward reproduction, that doesn’t mean something unusual couldn’t happen in a person’s development in the womb to where their sexuality is not conducive with reproduction. No. One. Can. Choose. Who. They. Find. Attractive. No. One. Can. Just. Change. Who. They. Find. Attractive.

          • JM

            Homosexuality is a choice and always has been one. no one forced to be homosexual. it is a CHOICE people make! I know people who went from heterosexual to homosexual and ”don’t say those people were already homosexual” no, no they wren’t, they didn’t show no signs of AT ALL of homosexuality. no one is born with a desire to be with some of the same sex as them, NO ONE. homosexuality is caused by society. it has nothing to do at all with genes, it has nothing to do at all with how someone is born. homosexuality is people what do not what people are. It’s a CHOICE

          • JM

            So now you are going to ignore homosexuals? you won’t believe it coming from people like me but neither will believe it coming from those who live this lifestyle? homosexuality is a choice and always been one. no one is forced to be homosexual. I know people who went from heterosexual to homosexual and please do not say ”these people were already homosexual just pretending to be heterosexual” no. no these people were not already homosexual. these people did not show any signs AT ALL of homosexuality. these people even had kids when they were in normal heterosexual relationships. ”I was with someone of the opposite sex to pretend to be straight” umm no. no one forces you to be with them. if you were with that person it means that you found that person attractive and you wanted to be with that person. that person did not force you to be with him/her. no one is born with a desire to be with someone of the same sex as them. it is choice people make. homosexuality is caused by society. it has nothing to do at all with genes or how one is born. homosexuality is what people do. not what people are. it is a CHOICE. homosexuality is an alternative lifestyle choice to heterosexuality. it is a choice. what would it take to get you to realize this?

          • Dant e

            JM You nailed it in these comments, i know because it is exactly what has been my experience. I did not find men attractive and then as my depravity and sin increased my perversions did also and all kinds of disgusting things were thought about. When i got saved by the Lord all but the attraction to women were removed, i now only see those things as disgusting and harmful twistings and distortions of Gods natural design

          • Jim Walker

            Please reply to Jeremy L, Pigdowndog, Linda, Chuck Anxxx, John Connor,etc
            These people need to be told the truth.

          • Jeremy L

            “if you were with that person it means that you found that person attractive and you wanted to be with that person.” Um. No. It means you were so scared about what your family, friends, church, and JM down the street would think of you being gay, so you went as far as to form a sham relationship with someone you aren’t truly attracted to. People get into relationships they don’t really want all the time for social reasons. Gays do this to try and find acceptance. And end up hurting the person they pair up with when it comes to light that they aren’t really attracted to them. People will indeed even go so far as having kids with the person to keep up the charade. Another motivation may be they want to convince themselves that they can be straight when they really can’t. These actions can all be chalked up to self-hatred, self-denial, and needless guilt. You saying this isn’t the case doesn’t mean it’s not the case. It only makes sense that it’s the case. “no one is born with a desire to be with someone of the same sex as them. it is choice people make.” You poor thing, I don’t know how I could possibly more clearly explain that sexual attraction and arousal are involuntary. It should be self-evident. A sexual desire being unusual doesn’t mean it’s chosen. That’s ridiculous. Sexual desire is not chosen, no matter what it is. If you can explain to me the process by which someone “chooses” to be attracted to the same sex even though people are “naturally” always attracted to the opposite sex, I will believe you. So, go ahead. Give me the step-by-step process by which someone “becomes” gay.

          • JM

            Very easy. You stop dating the opposite sex and start dating the same sex. the longer you do it. the more your brain starts getting used to it and you will no longer see any desire for the opposite sex. homosexuality is a CHOICE. anyone can choose to become homosexual. it is the same like choosing to become a police officer or a football player. it is CHOICE

          • Jeremy L

            Blah blah blah. Why on earth would anyone attracted to the opposite sex want to date the same sex? What could possibly be the motivation to do that if physical and romantic interest aren’t even present? No one approaches someone they are not attracted to with the intention of asking them out. Even the loonies out there who “want to try this gay thing” never really succeed. None of my multiple gay friends ever recounted to me a moment when they decided to “stop dating the opposite sex”. They all report they were always attracted to the same sex. But of course, you’ll just scream, “LIARS!!” But hey, if you need your religion to make sense and your dislike of gays to be merited, believe whatever the hell you want.

          • JM

            ”Blah blah blah.” you know I’m right. Homosexuality is a choice. people choose to be homosexual all the time. of course we don’t have footage of this but that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen, lesbians persuade straight girls try to lesbian activity with them and the girls try it and end up becoming lesbians. and it has become trendy now to be homosexual, so many teens are now choosing to be homosexual. homosexuality is and always was CHOICE. nothing forces people to be homosexuals. there are no ”homosexual genes” born homosexual is just a lie that was invented to get people to change views towards homosexuals. it has nothing to do with truth, because no one is born homosexual and it is people that choose to go that route.

          • Jeremy L

            Situational homosexuality does not equal genuine homosexual orientation. Look at what happens in prisons and then observe how the men all easily go back to their wives or girlfriends after getting out. Under certain circumstances (peer pressure, sure, and lack of preferred mates, as in my example) people can go against their usual innate sexual orientation. But they always end up on a path consistent with their orientation in the end. For various sociological reasons, there may be some “straying”, but there really isn’t any legitimate “changing”. The fact that you mention girls “becoming lesbian” is interesting because females on average are more commonly bisexual than men. This is because their brains/bodies are more given to sexual fluidity whereas men are usually either wholly straight or wholly gay. As for “trendiness”, I would beg to differ. I don’t know where you live, but you can still get harassed for being gay at the high schools in my area. I never said there wasn’t complexity to human sexuality. There clearly is. And so simple an assertion as “they choose it” doesn’t fit with that complexity. I understand you need to be “right” in order to justify your opinions, so go ahead and be as “right” as your little heart requires you to be. The rest of us will be examining this matter closely and won’t let any anti-gay animus inform our conclusions. Okay? Okay.

          • JM

            Homosexuality is choice. do genes make you be homosexual? no, they don’t. that’s completely up to you. when you’re born. you are not homosexual. you are just a baby. you BECOME homosexual later in life. like I said before. there is nothing that forces a person to be homosexual. that is the person’s choosing. ”born homosexual” was made up to change people views of perverts and make them go from not being gay friendly to being gay friendly, no man is born with a desire to want something shoved up his behind or to be with another man. of all it is a matter of choice.

          • Jeremy L

            Yes. Babies aren’t sexual beings. Congratulations. But babies do have sexuality waiting to be activated at puberty. Some will grow up to be straight. Some gay. Some bisexual.

            You don’t even really need “born this way” to get people to be gay friendy. Simply asking someone “What’s the harm?” more than suffices. Most people realize there is no harm and that it isn’t their business. Who cares about where it comes from?

            “no man is born with a desire to want something shoved up his behind or to be with another man”. I’m perplexed as to how they “choose” to want to be with men. Although, I can see how one can acquire a taste for having things shoved up his or her behind (which isn’t even something all gay men want, btw). Consider homosexual desire abnormal all you want, but to say it is chosen doesn’t make sense. At best, it’s a mix of nature and nurture. The question of whether it can or should be changed is the real question. People can be born psychopaths, you know. But the difference between psychopathy and homosexuality is that the latter is innocuous.

          • Jim Walker

            If you have noticed, none of these people, Jeremy L, Pigdowndog dares to respond to Dant e, because they can’t win talking to her.

          • JM

            ”What is their natural sexuality then? Heterosexuality? If so, why would they seek same sex relationships in the first place?” because they’re perverts

          • Jeremy L

            And I suppose they “choose” to be “perverts”? How?

        • Pigdowndog

          “Then, Murder is not sin, rape is not sin, since sin is a religious construct ?”
          And how do you arrive at that conclusion?

      • Jim Walker

        “homosexuality is a sin. ”
        No such thing as “sin”. A silly religious construct.
        Then, Murder is not sin, rape is not sin, since sin is a religious construct ?
        You need to see a doctor.

        • Pigdowndog

          “Then, Murder is not sin, rape is not sin, since sin is a religious construct ?”
          No. They’re crimes.
          Get a dictionary.

          • Jim Walker

            I wonder why would people commit murder and rape when they are sinless. Must be the koolaid they drank that made them do it.

          • Pigdowndog

            Because they’re criminals.
            Nothing to do with a word that is meaningless in a secular society.
            When it comes to Koolaid the god-botherers seem to have the monopoly on that beverage.

          • Jim Walker

            You are not a criminal yet before you commit a crime isn’t it ?
            The question is what made them do it ?
            Anyway, you are not here to search for answers, but to troll.

          • Pigdowndog

            “You are not a criminal yet before you commit a crime isn’t it ? ”
            That sentence makes no sense.

            “The question is what made them do it ?”
            Criminal tendencies.

            “Anyway, you are not here to search for answers, but to troll.”
            Why is it when someone shines the light on god-botherers hate and bigotry they always aim the epithet “troll”?

          • Jim Walker

            What causes someone to have criminal tendencies ?

            You have no light, you are living in darkness.
            Bigotry cuts both ways.

            BIGOT :
            “One who is strongly partial to one’s own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

          • Pigdowndog

            “What causes someone to have criminal tendencies ?”
            Many causes, upbringing, financial situation, bad choices etc.

            “You have no light, you are living in darkness.”
            luckily I have “seen the light”, the light of reality and it is good.

            “BIGOT :
            “One who is strongly partial to one’s own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.”
            A perfect description of what you stand for.
            I don’t decry people for their sexuality because it’s none of my business.
            It’s also none of yours.

          • Jim Walker

            You are a Bigot too, Pig…

          • Pigdowndog

            Ah! The usual childish response when hate and bigotry is pointed out.

          • Jim Walker

            You are nickname Pigdowndog. People call me Jim so in short its natural.

          • Pigdowndog

            Of course that’s the reason!
            Isn’t telling untruths a “sin” in your world?

          • Jim Walker

            It’s not a sin if it’s the truth.

          • Pigdowndog

            Only your conscience knows the truth.

      • AndRebecca

        Common humanity includes a sinful nature, so you are right. We have great sinners in the church. It is so bad today, one pastor did a documentary called “The Church of Tares,” which can be seen on you tube. And, the Unitarians have infiltrated the church. They were the first to have homosexual “churches.” And they now admit they are secular humanists-not Christians in any way. And, homosexual parades and websites are out there… Are parades going on in bedrooms these days?

        • Pigdowndog

          “Common humanity includes a sinful nature,”
          Sin is a religious construct which has no meaning in the secular world.

          “And, homosexual parades and websites are out there”
          So what!
          If you don’t like them don’t look at them. Simple.

          “Are parades going on in bedrooms these days?”
          Do you not understand what an analogy is?

          • Shaquille Harvey

            Then why are the LGBT and their activists so concerned over a document on understanding and stating Christian stand on sexuality?

          • Jim Walker

            Because they want to shut us down like they want to remove the statues to erase history. If their plan works, they will think the future generation will not be able to distinguish right from wrong about LGBT. What stupidity.

          • AndRebecca

            Religious constructs have meaning in the world or we wouldn’t be having this conversation. And, you said all of this stuff was going on in bedrooms. I brought out the fact that it is going on in the public square in broad daylight and that is why everyone has a say in it.

          • Pigdowndog

            I actually said “the secular world” not the fantasy world of the theist.
            I also told you that I used that example as an analogy which you don’t seem to understand.
            Then I reminded you that if it is indeed in the public square you have no obligation to attend or look
            It really is as simple as that.

            “everyone has a say in it.”
            You’re perfectly right with that and I have the right to highlight your bigotry and hate toward a group of perfectly legal human beings.

          • AndRebecca

            Gee, you must be God now. You think you can tell me what to do. As a good citizen of a free country, I am obligated to have a concern about everything going on in my country. And as a Christian, my obligations are greater. You are the hateful bigot against free speech and have no grasp on good citizenship.

          • Pigdowndog

            “Gee, you must be God now.”
            Gods don’t exist.

            ” And as a Christian, my obligations are greater. ”
            As a Christian you are doing what a lot of Christians do. Poking your nose into someone elses business when it’s nothing to do with you.

            “You are the hateful bigot against free speech and have no grasp on good citizenship.”
            You have a perfect right to say what you like and I have a perfect right to highlight your medieval mindset.

          • AndRebecca

            My mindset is modern. And since Christians started the modern world all of them need to be mindful of it and practice good citizenship. Letting America go to the dogs, or to a Marx’s pre-Christian “utopia” isn’t healthy for anyone. BTW, I love trolls.

          • Hmmm…

            “… to the dogs” Which is where your pearls are going here … Jesus said so. Mt 7:6 “Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.” Not so much calling people pigs and dogs, but illustrative of people who do not know how to value precious things. Interesting, the chosen name “pig”down”dog.” Maybe stop giving them an outlet or cover for the conviction that would settle on them were they to be alone with their thoughts … and the Holy Spirit’s gentle nudging …

          • AndRebecca

            Yeah, there’s a time and place for everything. Heard the pearls/swine thing before.

          • Pigdowndog

            “My mindset is modern.”
            The evidence doesn’t back that claim up.

            “practice good citizenship.”
            The vast majority whether believers or unbelievers do.

            “Letting America go to the dogs, or to a Marx’s pre-Christian “utopia” isn’t healthy for anyone.”
            Idiotic statement. America is a trillion miles away from Marxism.
            As for a “Christian utopia” there’s never been one and never will.
            In many respects Christianity is as vile as any religion.

          • AndRebecca

            You live in another country. How do you know so much about this one? And, you’re having a problem understanding what I’m saying. Marx’s utopia is pre-Christian…you would have to read a little of Marxism to understand that, I suppose. Marx was for promoting homosexuality, but Engels and Lenin were not. European Socialists have been promoting homosexuality for at least 200 years, along with alternative beliefs to Christianity.

          • Pigdowndog

            “You live in another country. How do you know so much about this one? ”
            Priceless!
            Only an American would ask that question.
            It may come as a surprise to someone who lives in an insular and parochial country such as the U.S. but most modern societies learn about other lands beyond their borders.
            It’s called “education”.

            ” Marx was for promoting homosexuality”
            No he didn’t. He was homophobic.
            Communism in general supported gay rights. A little different than “promoting” it.

            “European Socialists have been promoting homosexuality”
            Once again the word is “support” not “promote”.

            “alternative beliefs to Christianity.”
            Surprisingly there are alternative beliefs to Christianity, some just as odd.

          • AndRebecca

            It may come as a surprise to you that America founded the first public school system in the world. Your school system is most likely based on the original version of this school system and that is why you know anything. Like you, Karl Marx was for homosexuality. Engels and Lenin were not. European Socialists are for homosexuality along with the Left in America. Why you don’t know that is beyond me. Nietzsche was a homosexual, John Maynard Keynes was a homosexual and lots Marxists in Europe were. That’s why they are so anti-family and women. The “feminist” movement is pro-homosexuality and anti-natural womanhood.

          • Pigdowndog

            “It may come as a surprise to you that America founded the first public school system in the world. ”
            Oh really!
            Where the hell are you getting your information from?

            University of Karueein, founded in 859 AD, Fez, Morocco.

            The King’s School, Canterbury, England: Founded 597 A.D. (Coincidentally down the road to where I live)
            Boston Latin School, Boston, Massachusetts : Founded 1635 A.D.
            My maths tell me that The King’s School was founded nearly one thousand two hundred years before Boston Latin School was first thought of and about eight hundred years before Columbus set foot on American soil.
            University of Karueein even longer.

            “Your school system is most likely based on the original version of this school system”
            You may want to revise that statement.

            “Like you, Karl Marx was for homosexuality”
            Please do your research. He was homophobic.
            To be clear, I’m not “for” homosexuality as I’m straight but I “accept” homosexuality as a valid part of a person’s normal make-up. Other than that it’s none of my business much the same as it’s none of yours.

            “Nietzsche was a homosexual, John Maynard Keynes was a homosexual and lots Marxists in Europe were.”
            So what?? How on Earth does that impinge on their work?
            Jesus never married, wore a dress and hung about with a load of blokes.
            What does that say about him?

            “That’s why they are so anti-family and women.”
            I’m pretty sure they all came from a family and had mothers so that statement is idiotic.

            “The “feminist” movement is pro-homosexuality and anti-natural womanhood.”
            Explain what “natural womanhood” is please.

          • AndRebecca

            I should have said modern. The Romans has a “public” school system and of course the Greeks had schools. The American system was different than those primitive ones. We also had the first modern census, although the census was mentioned in the Bible. I looked at the Communist Party USA website and they promote the LGBTQ movement, just like Marx would have wanted. Many communists are homosexual. And, you are sounding more and more ridiculous. I guess that’s why you are for the state taking over your life. You can’t handle it.

          • Pigdowndog

            “The American system was different than those primitive ones.”
            Modelled on the British system as they were mostly British immigrants.

            “We also had the first modern census, ”
            I doubt that very much but what the hell has that got to do with anything?

            “Many communists are homosexual. ”
            So what? Why does it bother you? I’m certain that there are thousands of Republican, Democrat, Mormon, Christian, Hindu or whatever homosexuals.
            What difference does it make to your life?

            “you are sounding more and more ridiculous.”
            Unbelievable irony!!!

            ” I guess that’s why you are for the state taking over your life.”
            And what do you base that idiotic notion on?
            The government of my country is a million miles from communism and has no interest whatsoever of “taking over my life”.

            Why do you hate gays?
            Are you repressing something?

          • AndRebecca

            Hmmm, no knowledge of history.

          • Pigdowndog

            “Hmmm, no knowledge of history.”
            That’s entirely your own fault. Research isn’t that difficult
            Try it sometime.

          • AndRebecca

            Modern civilization is Christian and it has everything to do with good citizenship. Now we’re in the post-modern era which is being pushed upon us by Leftists and we are seeing the poor results.

          • Pigdowndog

            “Modern civilization is Christian”
            No it’s not. Christianity is dwindling in most modern societies thank goodness.

            “Now we’re in the post-modern era which is being pushed upon us by Leftists”
            So Trump is left wing is he????

            “we are seeing the poor results.”
            What do you count as “poor results”?

          • AndRebecca

            I’m way over your head, and so will not respond anymore. You haven’t read a book or looked at a website regarding this subject and probably wouldn’t understand if you did.

          • Pigdowndog

            “I’m way over your head, and so will not respond anymore. You haven’t read a book or looked at a website regarding this subject and probably wouldn’t understand if you did.”
            Translation: “I have no valid argument against your facts and evidence so I’ll slink away with my tail between my legs”
            Pathetic!

          • AndRebecca

            That’s an analogy? Ha Ha Ha. And, you are repeating yourself with the religious construct. And there are religious sites out there and churches out there which bother you to death! So don’t go on them! It is that simple.

          • Pigdowndog

            “That’s an analogy? ”
            A dictionary will help you.

            “there are religious sites out there and churches out there which bother you to death!”
            I love churches and cathedrals. We have thousands of these beautiful buildings in my country.
            It’s not the buildings that bother me, it’s the superstitious claptrap that’s espoused in them.

            “So don’t go on them!”
            I go to photograph them not to join in the idiocy.
            Simple!

          • AndRebecca

            Ah, so you aren’t an American? Many atheists on Christian websites aren’t… There are good analogies and bad ones. You go to homosexual parades to photograph them…right…

          • Pigdowndog

            “Ah, so you aren’t an American?”
            Thankfully no.

            “Many atheists on Christian websites aren’t”
            That I can believe as most modern civilised countries are not as religious (indoctrinated) as the U.S.

            “There are good analogies and bad ones”
            There are and mine happened to be a good one.

            “You go to homosexual parades to photograph them…right…”
            Never been to one in my life. Not sure it’s relevant but I’m straight.

            “and you photograph churches and cathedrals…right…”
            I do because most of them are beautiful unlike the message they stand for.

          • AndRebecca

            Modern Civilization was started by Christians in western Europe about 1450. It kept advancing in the Protestant countries, especially England and America. As France and Germany degraded through socialism and atheism, their civilizations did not advance as fast…They had to be saved twice by America due to their atheist wars. So, your country must have degenerated over the years if you are in western Europe due to atheistic socialism. If you are in some other country you should be thankful that Christians have shared God’s bounty with you. All the inventions and systems creating wealth were invented in the West due to the Christian culture. You should read more to improve your knowledge base. It is odd that you think cathedrals are beautiful and not homosexual parades, since you promote the one and not the other. You bite the hand that feeds you.

          • Pigdowndog

            “As France and Germany degraded through socialism and atheism, their civilizations did not advance as fast”
            What the hell are you talking about?
            The industrial revolution began in Britain and France was a powerful country when your citizens were committing genocide of the natives and indulging in the quaint old practice of slavery, which by the way your special sky fairy friend actively encourages.

            “They had to be saved twice by America due to their atheist wars.”
            America helped Europe after turning up late to the party but what was atheistic about those wars you’ll have to explain after you’ve casually dismissed the death and horror of millions of Europeans to claim the glory for your country.
            Appalling!.
            I think you’ll find they were fought mainly over territory. The last one being led by a lunatic Catholic.

            “If you are in some other country you should be thankful that Christians have shared God’s bounty with you. ”
            Thankfully Christianity is on its last legs where I live. We are mostly non-believers here as education is religion’s biggest enemy.

            “All the inventions and systems creating wealth were invented in the West due to the Christian culture. ”
            Sod all to do with Christianity. “Necessity is the mother of invention”

            “You should read more to improve your knowledge base.”
            I admire your excellent irony.

            “It is odd that you think cathedrals are beautiful and not homosexual parades”
            Something I never said.
            I remarked that I had never been to a parade. I will if the circumstances allow as they look great.

            “You bite the hand that feeds you.”
            The only hands that feed me are attached to the end of my arms.
            Mythical beings are not required.

          • AndRebecca

            What inspires you to get on Christian websites and make hateful statements about Christians? Jealousy?

          • Pigdowndog

            Unlike theists I like to see the view from all sides which includes religious websites.
            If I see a particularly ignorant and bigoted comment then I will react to that comment as is my right as I see fit in exactly the same way as you reacted to my comment.
            Why have you more right to comment just because you are a believer than me who is not?
            Religion doesn’t get a free pass in my book and I’ll throw daylight onto their vile statements about a person’s sexuality which is none of their or your business as long as it’s legal and they are consenting adults.
            I will continue pushing back against the nasty and ill formed barbs that emanate from the “godly” mentality.
            It’s your choice to read my comebacks or not and it’s your choice to react or not.
            As to being jealous, no way, it’s more sadness and incredulity that educated people in a modern society can still believe that superstitious nonsense but it’s their right to and it’s my right to oppose it.
            Any clearer now?

          • AndRebecca

            You enjoy being hateful…And so you troll religious sites and go after people you think you can upset or damage in some way. What a miserable life you have!

          • Pigdowndog

            You obviously never read my last comment but just wanted to spout childish insults because I disagree with you.
            I’m afraid you’re the one coming across as “hateful”. I’m just pointing out your bigotry.

            “What a miserable life you have!”
            Au contraire mon cherie!
            I have a wonderfully full and happy life that I live to the full as I know this is the only one I’ll get.
            Bon chance.

    • James

      Do you know any gay or lesbian people?

  • Mr. M

    Christians really aren’t good at convincing people to become Christians…

    • JM

      So you need to be pro sin to be convince people to become Christian?

    • TellstheTruth

      Really? Then how did there get to be so many of them?

      • Hmmm…

        So many of them who?

      • Mr. M

        Brute force?

        • TellstheTruth

          Would that work with you?

    • Kevin Carr

      We are to just do the telling and let the Holy Spirit do the convincing. Less me, more him.

    • Patmos

      It’s not about convincing. His sheep hear his voice.

      • Hmmm…

        The lost are not his sheep. They need to be reached. The Bible says the Holy Spirit must draw them, and we understand we need to pray for them that way. The Holy Spirit does the convincing and convicting. We are to share our testimony, what God did for us, and tell them what the bible says. Oh, and we are to love them when they kick it back … which is a challenge for sure, because they can be pretty stinky. But, someone loved us into the kingdom, certainly God …

        • m-nj

          methinks Patmos was making a tangential comment about election/predestination… and i agree. All those destined to salvation WILL hear, both from physical words/speech and the effectual calling of the Spirit.

    • Hmmm…

      The Holy Spirit does the convincing. It’s a problem for you to keep hardening your heart …. Not a threat – a truth. You are dealing with God when someone shares him with you, like it or not. It’s not a problem, because he loves you wonderfully, just like you are, but wont’ leave you that way … It’s your life without or outside or your life and eternity with that great lover of your soul.

    • Jim Walker

      Unless you want to hear only the good stuff. But we speak the truth and it hurts sometimes. No one can convert another person to be Christians. We were once Non-Christians too. It’s you and only you can accept Him.

    • James

      Seeing Christians living joyful fulfilled lives filled with acts of charity and generosity would be far more convincing than slinging Bible verses or dry Natural Law theories.

    • Gary

      God convinces people to become Christians. Something God isn’t doing a lot of today.

      • m-nj

        “Something God isn’t doing a lot of today”

        Well, at least not in the “developed” West… maybe He’s too busy saving millions out of aetheism in China, and polytheism in India, not to mention saving the Muslims from Allah.

  • Jeremy L

    In a way, there are two Bibles, are there not? One written by men and one written on the very face of the universe. When one contradicts the other, which one are you gonna trust? I heard this quote from somewhere. Perhaps Augustine said it or something like it? I think it definitely gives insight into the constant reinterpretations of the Bible and the varying degrees of belief in its “literalness”. Brown has always said, “Go by the Bible, not your own experience and observations,” but I can’t help but doubt that he himself “goes by the Bible” all the time for everything. I don’t think anyone really does, honestly.

    • Shaquille Harvey

      What do you mean by literalness here ?

      • Jeremy L

        I mean exactly what “literalness” means. The Bible had long been though to be literal history without error. But now many if not most have given up the “literalness” of the creation story, for example, because it’s so wildly irreconcilable with mountains of evidence that suggest a very different story about the origins or our planet and humanity. The liberal Christians and I do not suggest that the Bible “figuratively” condemns homosexuality. It quite literally does condemn it. There’s no arguing that. Rather, their arguments are that homosexuality AS IT WAS KNOWN at the time is condemned. You aren’t going to find a loving gay couple in the places Paul wrote to. And there is no evidence he ever met homosexuals besides prostitutes and idolaters and pederasts. And then you have Leviticus, which, oddly enough, condemns male homosexuality, but doesn’t mention lesbians. Why? Because no one really cared about lesbians! Just as no one cared about men having multiple wives! The culture of the ancient Israelites does NOT line up with conservative Christian culture today, despite the assertion by conservative Christians that they worship the Israelites’ God. The Bible reflects the culture of the time it was written, and in an attempt to make it jive with modern sensibilities, people who want to still be Christian yet also have dear loved ones who are LGBT simply are working to adapt. This sort of religious adaptation has been done in the past with so many issues, from slavery to women’s rights. Heck, even the Israelites themselves had to adapt during the Babylonian captivity by proclaiming monotheism. That’s right! The Israelites themselves revised their theology! And now it’s being done again. I actually think it’s all rather silly and people might as well just let go and understand the Bible, while it contains some universal truths, is not relevant to the world we live in today.

        • Patmos

          Your ignorance is through the roof. Nothing worse than someone claiming knowledge, while spewing nonsense.

          • Jeremy L

            If you could demonstrate how what I say is “ignorance” and “nonsense”, that’d be great.

          • Dant e

            The real issue here is a lack of belief because the path is narrow, the way hard in giving your life to Christ as a sacrifice and it has to be your whole life. First is acknowlegement of what is the revealed truth and then following it as the Lord convicts. John 3:19 Romans 1:18-32

        • JM

          The Bible does condemn lesbianism, Romans 1:26-27

          • Jeremy L

            But not until thousands of years after Leviticus! Was it A-Okay for a few thousand years before God was like, “Yeah, I guess we’ll condemn that too.” Again, the Bible clearly is a product of men concerned with various things at various times in various cultural settings.

          • AndRebecca

            Well the Bible was written over a span of 1600 years and applies to today. It covers various cultural settings because the sinful nature of humans does not change no matter the cultural setting. It just goes from bad to worse depending on how much the culture wants to disrespect God.

          • Jeremy L

            Why doesn’t God condemn male and female homosexuality in one place at one time? When you make a proclamation against homosexuality, you don’t space it out, do you? Especially not over centuries. I stand by what I said. The author(s) of Leviticus were not concerned with lesbians. Paul, on the other hand, was. In the end, we don’t get a unified message from the Bible. Just various authors with various agendas and opinions informed by their individual places and times.

          • AndRebecca

            The bible speaks against homosexuality over 400 times. It is called things like defilement and pollution. If you read a contemporary version of the Bible, where they use modern language and do not mince words, you will see it is mentioned way more than you think. The pagans in biblical days had male and female temple prostitutes. The writers of the Bible were interested in God’s Word, not giving a description of all the corruption going on in their time and place. You do know that 13 of the 15 Roman Caesars were homosexuals and that the orgies they had were nearly all homosexual with both men and small boys being the participants. Why would all this be put in the Bible?

          • Jeremy L

            “The bible speaks against homosexuality over 400 times.” Try 6 times. There are 6 explicit references.

            “If you read a contemporary version of the Bible, where they use modern language and do not mince words, you will see it is mentioned way more than you think.” Contemporary translators would want to give it more attention, wouldn’t they?

            “The writers of the Bible were interested in God’s Word, not giving a description of all the corruption going on in their time and place. ” Leviticus is a set of rules said to have been given by God to make the Israelites ceremonially pure and distinct from the tribes around them. Its function is not to give descriptions of the corruption of the times at all. A lot of the rules seem arbitrary until you consider the Israelites’ nomadic situation and lack of resources and facilities. “Don’t eat shellfish it is an abomination” was probably designed to keep people from getting deathly ill. Likewise, “Thou shalt not lie with man” was perhaps designed so men could continue producing children to replace the ones who died. There are practical reasons for these laws, and superstitious ones as well. Female homosexuality wasn’t addressed because it was not recognized or else no one cared about it (and why would they? It definitely didn’t hinder the production of more children since men were the ones who did the impregnating). The writers of the Bible were interested in what was relevant to themselves. They were not out to write a moral guidebook for people to refer to thousands of years later.

            “You do know that 13 of the 15 Roman Caesars were homosexuals and that the orgies they had were nearly all homosexual with both men and small boys being the participants.” Yes. And does that represent all homosexuals, past and present? No. I might also add that this pederasty was the only homosexuality Paul would have witnessed and known about, hence his negative tone.

          • AndRebecca

            You have Satan’s answers to everything. I guess we know where you are going.

          • Hmmm…

            Exactly, for example: Ephesians 5:12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.

          • AndRebecca

            Yes, it has been considered immoral to even talk about these things, especially around women and children. This has been used to the advantage of the evil one. Like the introduction of sex education in the schools. First just information that few would object to, and then the indecent material which gets more pornographic by the year. Children’s TV and women’s magazines get more disgusting all the time.

          • Hmmm…

            Yes, but to your point (Why would all this be put in the Bible?) that the bible doesn’t lay out all the junk that went on, but supporting that it did go on, to those deniers here.

          • AndRebecca

            Right. It went on then and now. The doing deniers. Propagandists.

          • Jim Walker

            I liked Shaquille’s explanation and want to share it with you :

            Why would they think male homosexuality was forbidden but women got a free pass? That’s like arguing that because the OT says “If a man…” does something like steal a cow, he gets punished, it implies women can steal cows with no punishment.”
            Its like the word Mankind only applies to men and not women ?

          • Jeremy L

            The verse is pretty clearly addressed to men, since it says that “you shall not lie with man as with woman”. The author is telling men they should not substitute another man for a woman in sex. The “as with woman” part is actually quite ambiguous, when you think about it. Is a man allowed to have sex with another man in a way that’s NOT like “lying with a woman” (i.e., not penetrating the man)? Heck if I know! I wasn’t there with the Israelites in the wilderness to see how they interpreted their laws. I think the reading you offer and the other readings only further illustrates that the Bible, like all literature, may be interpreted in several ways, with people picking the reading that best lines up with their worldview. I happen to think the simplest explanation is that the Israelites, much like many modern cultures, were fixated with gender roles and were patriarchal, so reacted more harshly to men “transgressing” masculinity by refusing sex with women than with women transgressing femininity by refusing sex with men. Perhaps they associated male homosexuality with their pagan, anti-Yahweh neighbors. Perhaps they wanted men only having sex with women in order to ensure those who died on the journey through the wilderness could be replaced by new babies. They may not have mentioned female homosexuality because they didn’t see it as a pressing threat to their cohesion and survival. No one really knows.

          • Trilemma

            How can you be sure these two verses are talking about lesbianism. They say the women were doing something against nature. Paul thinks it’s against nature for a man to wear long hair. The women could have been feminists refusing to be subject to their husbands and to cover their heads.

          • GPS Daddy

            The context is about sexual relations.

          • AndRebecca

            Right…feminists…2000 years ago in the middle east.

          • Trilemma

            From John MacArthur’s book, The MacArthur New Testament Commentary 1 Corinthians

            We know from secular history that various movements of women’s liberation and feminism appeared in the Roman empire during New Testament times. Women would often take off their veils or other head coverings and cut their hair in order to look like men. Much as in our own day, some women were demanding to be treated exactly like men and they attacked marriage and the raising of children as unjust restrictions of their rights. They asserted their independence by leaving their husbands and homes, refusing to care for their children, living with other men, demanding jobs traditionally held by men, wearing men’s clothing and hairdos, and by discarding all signs of femininity. It is likely that some of the believers at Corinth were influenced by those movements and, as a sign of protest and independence, refused to cover their heads at appropriate times.

            MacArthur describes women leaving their natural sexual use of bearing children for their husbands and pursuing unnatural passions of women’s liberation and feminism. Obviously, Paul did not want Christian women to be associated with feminism and believed it was contrary to nature.

          • AndRebecca

            O.K., first feminists in biblical days and now today. Feminists today are definitely against the Bible. Feminists have written about being against Christianity. They are Marxists and promote secular humanism which is a Marxist version of religion. Their ideas are based on F. Engel’s book “The Origins of the Family,” and it is easy to find all sorts of material regarding their beliefs. So, John MacArthur is right and I agree with him, at least on this issue. Society has gone downhill since the 1960s with the advancement of Marxist ideas. We are defining deviancy down. Fathers should be the head of the family. Single mother families do not work out well and that’s why Marxists promote them. Marxists want the State to be the head of household and the State to tell everyone how to live, both male and female. We have gone far away from the ideal protestant Christian family as unit of government. It would take a lot to bring it back.

          • James

            Paul’s Greek on the issue of lesbianism is far more ambiguous than most English translations make it out to be.

            His condemnation of male homosexuality, however, is shockingly explicit.

            Notably, the Old Testament makes no mention of it.

          • Shaquille Harvey

            I dealt with this already, why condemn one but not the other ?
            How is it more ambiguous?

          • James

            The ambiguity is in the meaning of “unnatural sexual relations” in “Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones.”

            Why condemn one but not the other? Lesbian sex does not have the same health risks as gay sex or heterosexual sodomy. If the prohibition of gay sex was for health reasons, then these reasons do not apply to lesbianism.

            Furthermore, why does the Old Testament say nothing about lesbianism at all?

          • Shaquille Harvey

            The passage isn’t just condemning the health risks but the nature of female homosexuality similar to male homosexuality.

            Again passages like Leviticus 20:13 would been understood to cover homosexuality and such.

            Even if the case,Why does it need to specify in places like Leviticus ? Why would they think male homosexuality was forbidden but women got a free pass? That’s like arguing that because the OT says “If a man…” does something like steal a cow, he gets punished, it implies women can steal cows with no punishment.

          • James

            Because the Old Testament doesn’t condemn “homosexuality”, a term that was not invented until the 19th century, but rather gay sex in surprisingly explicit terms.

            Two women don’t do that.

          • Shaquille Harvey

            Regardless of wether or not the word was used, the concept and understanding of it would of been.

            Again concept of same sex unions was condemned as a whole here.
            Why would one be forbidden and the other get a pass in the ancient world or continuous?

          • James

            The word that was used does not describe “same sex unions”, but a specific sex act.

            I’ve already answered that question.

          • Shaquille Harvey

            Yes but sexual acts which that also condemns homosexual unions and so on as a whole.

            No you didn’t here was my full question;

            Even if the case,Why does it need to specify in places like Leviticus ? Why would they think male homosexuality was forbidden but women got a free pass? That’s like arguing that because the OT says “If a man…” does something like steal a cow, he gets punished, it implies women can steal cows with no punishment.

          • James

            I’ve already answered that: Because gay sex and lesbian sex are quite different.

          • Shaquille Harvey

            Yes that is why I stated homosexuality as a whole would of been both condemned.

            Again why would one be condemned in ancient Israel but the other be acceptable ?

          • James

            Because gay sex has health risks that lesbian sex does not.

          • Shaquille Harvey

            Again and ? The nature of homosexuality being condemned wasn’t just by the fact on health issues but the general same sex relationships.
            To the ancient Israelites why would one be condemned and the other accepted especially to their culture and their intended divine understanding of marital unions ?

          • James

            I already answered that. You just don’t like the answer.

          • Shaquille Harvey

            No you didn’t. So I’ll ask it again;
            Why would they think male homosexuality was forbidden but women got a free pass? That’s like arguing that because the OT says “If a man…” does something like steal a cow, he gets punished, it implies women can steal cows with no punishment.
            ” “If a man steals an ox or a sheep, and kills it or sells it, he shall repay five oxen for an ox, and four sheep for a sheep. 2b If a thief is found breaking in and is struck so that he dies, there shall be no bloodguilt for him,”
            Exodus 22:1-2
            Reading this verse does that mean it is/was perfectly excepted that a woman could steal an ox then, especially back in ancient Israel, considering that the word(s) here is male/masculine for both ?
            If not why ?

        • Shaquille Harvey

          I have no record of any reputable theologians who take the bible completely literally. The bible contains many different types of genres and literary styles. Some that are literally, some that are allegory, apocalyptic, proverbial, poetry etc.

          I already talked about lesbianism in the bible and Leviticus why condemn one but not the other ?
          What adaptation ?
          What adaptation to slavery?

          What evidence do you have that the ancient Israelites only became monotheistic after the Babylon captivity?

          • Jeremy L

            The fact the the Israelites acknowledged the existence of their enemies’ gods shows that they were not monotheistic from the start, but rather thought Yahweh existed among many gods. Yahweh, to them, was just the most powerful – the god to get behind. Simply reading the early books of the OT shows they were polytheistic. “The LORD, your God” literally is specifying Yahweh as the god of Israel, as opposed to other gods. There’s also things like “WE shall make man in OUR image” and “Thou shalt have no OTHER gods before me”. The evidence of their polytheism is everywhere. Abraham didn’t even make a covenant with Yahweh in Genesis, but rather El-Shaddai. Yahweh then shows up to Moses in Exodus claiming to have been El-Shaddai all along, but did not give his Yahweh name to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph (Ex. 6:2). This suggests that the Israelites not only adopted monotheism fairly late into their history, but actually switched gods at some point as well! The Exodus passage very much reads like an attempt by its post-Exile editors to make their old theology match their new theology. As interesting as all this is, I cannot talk about it all day. But I think it more than illustrates my bottom line that revision of theology (and even the Bible itself in this case!) has been known for thousands of years. What we’re seeing now with LGBT theology isn’t new at all.

          • Pam H.

            Elohim, Yahweh, and El Shaddai are different names for the same God – the only God who exists. Just as one man can be called by his first name, his last name, a nick name, or grandson, or son, or dad. “We shall make man in our image” refers to the Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The First Commandment is a warning not to put false gods before the True God. The fact that you can make so many errors in Biblical interpretation tells me that you are not a born-again believer in Christ. “The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.” (1 Corinthians 2:14)

          • Jeremy L

            “Elohim, Yahweh, and El Shaddai are different names for the same God.” This is simply a rewrite of the mythology so it accommodates monotheism. They began as separate gods and were combined into one over time.

            “We shall make man in our image” refers to the Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.” This is merely another Christian rewrite designed to reconcile the OT with the NT. Genesis was written by someone of a polytheistic worldview who imagined a creator god who presided over a council of lesser gods.

            In context, the first commandment instructs the Israelites to worship Yahweh and be faithful to him rather than worship the gods of the neighboring tribes (which they believed existed).

            I find it said that you let your religion get in the way or appreciating history, mythology, and literature.

          • Pam H.

            I’d like to see the documentation/proof for your assertions.

          • Jeremy L

            There are endless scholars who support the Israelites’ initial polytheism and document the shift to polytheism. Perhaps “A History of Israelite Religion in the Old Testament Period” by Rainer Albertz would be useful, although that is but one book from the footnotes of one online article that I could produce with one Google search. Besides that, there are infinite resources. Simply reading the text of the OT will also confirm their polytheism. They clearly acknowledged the existence of Baal and other deities and worshiping pagan gods and idols was always a temptation for them. If they truly believed Yahweh was the only god, they would have no temptations. Who would be tempted to worship someone they believed with all their hearts did not exist? You must understand I am not asserting that God does not exist (no one can prove he doesn’t). I’m merely saying that the theology of the Israelites changed.

          • Pam H.

            And I could mention countless Christian scholars who support the Biblical concept that there is only one God (Justin Martyr, Augustine, Martin Luther, John Calvin, George Whitefield, R.C. Sproul, etc.) But you have already rejected them as inadequate scholars because they don’t confirm your point of view. You could say the same about my rejection of your scholars. We are both only human beings, so what makes your opinions more valid than mine? Simply because you want them to be? Simply because you think your resources are better than mine? Sorry, that won’t work. My beliefs and standards are based upon something outside and above myself – the One True God. You can go ahead and write me off as a hopeless cause; you won’t be the first. I believe in the One who KNOWS I’m a hopeless cause, but who loves and accepts me anyway.

          • Jeremy L

            “We are both only human beings, so what makes your opinions more valid than mine?” Nothing. It wasn’t even scholars who influenced my understanding that polytheism was the root of Judaism, but rather simply reading the Old Testament. Of course you would read it differently because you have a different perception of it. This article was talkign about the development of LGBT theology and how it is inconsistent with the Bible. I was merely countering this by pointing out that Christians have revised their theology many times in response to social change and that even the Bible’s own theology changes and develops as you read through it. A personal attack was not my intention. I apologize if it came across that way.

          • Pam H.

            Actually, I was simply stating facts; one of them being that I have something you don’t (and I am so very thankful!). You misunderstood the little I’ve written here, and yet you expect me to believe that you have a better understanding of the Bible than I do. I can sympathize with you because I remember that before I was born again, I misunderstood what was written in the Bible. After I was born again, the Bible became clear because God gave me His Holy Spirit to help me understand it. You may not believe that, but it is true. I hope that one day soon, you will be given that same gift.

          • samton909

            There are endless numbers of crappy theologians lately, who apparently got paid to make up ridiculous stuff.

          • CJL

            Just commenting on one point….

            I think anybody who knows about the (biblical) history of Judiasm/Christianity knows that Abram was a polytheist.

            Christians (who realize that Abram was a polytheist) believe that there IS one God not that people believed/believe that. Christians believe that Abram (who became Abraham) and his family were called by God out of polytheism to be the people of God. Over time, they learned that there was just God. The Bible is ‘progressive revelation’.

            Christians and Jews believe that God calls Himself by a variety of names. The comparison to first name, last name, nick name, etc. explains that people call themselves different names. The reason God refers to Himself by different names is that He is trying to be (better) known. Each name reveals something about who He is. El-Shaddai means God Almighty, for instance.

            The issue with the Bible is the Bible. The issue with Christianity is Christ. That Christians do not really understand the Bible does not reflect on Christ/the Bible. Many well meaning and sincere Christians are on sites like this demonstrating that they are fairly ignorant of Christian concepts. They have, at least, a basic understanding of how they are ‘saved’ (an over used but amazing, evocative word). They have been taught that homosexuality is sin. They have been taught other things, as well, of course. They have no idea how to integrate those beliefs into faith or lifestyle (which should be about their faith).

            In spite of the multiple failings of all Christians and the ignorance (that I find irritating) of some Christians, being able to argue around the ignorant ones doesn’t make us right. It just means we are smarter (which, to be blunt is no accomplishment).

            Belief in Christ is not an exclusively intellectual exercise. It is a lot about experiencing God. We believe that if a person wants to know God, God will reveal himself. This to say that I am not trying to argue for what we believe/convince you. I am just explaining what it is that the Bible teaches/we believe. I would like to point out that there are competent Bible scholars who know the Bible very well (even reading Hebrew and NT Greek) who are also Believers, so you can be sure that there is (at least one) explanation for anything you see in the Bible that seems contradictory….

          • Jeremy L

            Oh, I understand completely the idea that there was one God all along and that Abraham and others didn’t realize this at first. That’s a belief I can respect because it actually explains the polytheistic perspective of the Pentateuch instead of just angrily denying it. I think that many Christians tend to think in terms of, “If my personal understanding I’ve had for a long time isn’t correct, then it means Christianity is false and/or God isn’t real”. Not so. There is much to be learned on the topic of God. My intention is not to assert that God isn’t real, but question why people hold to particular ideas about the Bible (i.e., the ancient Israelites were monotheistic) when deeper study and understanding of history would show that such ideas aren’t correct. As for the scholars who are believers, I admire their dedication to trying to unify academic Bible study with spiritual Bible study, but I don’t think I’d go so far as to say that the Bible doesn’t contradict itself. In their fervor, scholars might resort to reaching and making big stretches. The mess of an explanation as to how the Census of Quirinius in Luke could line up with the reign of Herod the Great in Matthew comes to mind. The simple and obvious explanation for that particular discrepancy is that Matthew and Luke placed Jesus’s birth at different times. But believers don’t want to accept that because they think it undermines the divinity of Jesus, the existence of God, the legitimacy of the Bible, and so on. I was never one to think that accepting Biblical contradictions meant throwing out the existence of God or even Christianity.

          • Shaquille Harvey

            Perhaps read this;
            http://www(dot)tektonics(dot)org/lp/monoelohim(dot)php
            (Please replace dot with real dot and remove brackets)

          • samton909

            Boy, you are so full of it.

          • Shaquille Harvey
          • Jeremy L

            Very interesting. Although, Whybray, the source for this apologetics site, apparently didn’t think the Pentateuch was real history himself despite making a good case against the documentary hypothesis. Let’s say Moses did write Genesis. But could not his sources have been from a polytheistic tradition? Is what we read today Moses’s original draft? We have to ask ourselves these questions. As I believe I said before, in Exodus, there is a moment when Yahweh says to Moses that he revealed himself to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph by a different name. It is a very out of nowhere statement. It reads as if it was put in later to “fix” the past theology so it would fit with the post-Exile theology. Now, we know that not all of the Pentateuch was written by Moses because it documents Moses’s death. I can see someone post-Exile going back and editing Moses’s (or whoever’s) “first draft” as it were. At any rate, the remnants of the original polytheist point of view are still scattered throughout the Pentateuch, as evidenced by the various examples I mentioned. Even if the author (or editor) of the version we know today was just using different names for the same One True God, it ultimately doesn’t mean that in earlier drafts of the texts Yahweh and Elohim weren’t separate. And even if the Israelites DID think of Yahweh and Elohim as one and the same, that doesn’t mean they weren’t polytheistic. The text very plainly indicates to us that they thought the gods of the other nations were real. When Yahweh was apparently “beaten” by the Babylonian gods, they felt hopeless and disenchanted. They raised their spirits by deciding that Yahweh was the one and only God and that their seeming defeat was all part of a divine plan. What I hope you can realize is that my study of all this is not meant to disprove the existence of God to you, myself, or anyone in this thread. I simply am trying to understand the religious history of ancient Israel.

          • Shaquille Harvey

            The article shows that categories like “monotheism” and “polytheism” do not apply to the Biblical period. It is an anachronism.

            My friend, who wrote the article disagrees much of what you stated and wishes to continue to discuss this with you on the site called theologyweb

          • Jeremy L

            I appreciate your friend’s offer, but I would rather not continue this discussion. Not because I’m certain I’m right (I know I’m no expert), but because I simply am not interested in falling even deeper into a debate I probably shouldn’t have started in the first place.

          • samton909

            Yes, and Paul’s denunciation of homosexuality was not limited to his time, and YES, he knew what homosexuals were, and so on. Paul is not some figurative or allegorical part of the bible Come on, get serious.

          • Shaquille Harvey

            Who are you talking to ?

        • Gary

          If the Bible is not literally true about God creating everything in six days, then nothing in the Bible can be trusted to be literally true. But those who refuse to believe the Bible aren’t concerned about what parts might be literal.

          • jumpstart

            Notice how satan attacks the first book of the Bible so as to discredit the entire Bible? Very clever. Christians are taking the word of science over the Bible. Amazing how clever Satan is.

        • samton909

          Everything you say, and the reasoning you use, could be applied to pedophiles, and they could say that now they are in accord with the bible.

          • Jeremy L

            Sigh. This is a classic “rebuttal” I’ve heard far too many times. Applied to pedophiles, you say? Hardly. Children can’t give consent.

        • m-nj

          “But now many if not most have given up the “literalness” of the creation story, for example, because it’s so wildly irreconcilable with mountains of evidence that suggest a very different story about the origins or our planet and humanity.”

          False. As a PhD scientist who is also a christian, I can tell you that the “evidence” you speak of is not extensive nor indisputable. Those who choose to ignore the creation account are either

          1) not saved and have no spiritual discernment (hence their inclusion in “most” is invalid, since they have rejected the Bible en toto anyways), or

          2) saved, but desiring the acceptance of other people, so they reject the creation account so as not to look “anti-science” or “fundamentalist”. They prefer to call God a liar.

          • Jeremy L

            Huh. You from AiG or something?

  • JM

    I have blocked some people but somehow they’re still able to see and reply to my posts. can someone please tell me, how is this happening?

    • Ken Abbott

      Your blocking them means that you choose not to see their posts; it does not prevent your posts being seen by anyone who has not blocked you.

  • Patmos

    The light of Christ came not to condemn, but to save. The selfish LGBT activists are looking for affirmation, and when they don’t get it they then mistakenly spit their usual venom with cries of how they are being condemned. I wonder if it will ever occur to them to consider the salvation part.

    Perhaps once they let down their emotional barrier they will see the light and get over themselves.

    • JM

      homosexuals are asking for church acceptance and tolerance and for the Bible to rewritten but what they really need to is repent.

      • Patmos

        If they are like the thief who repented on the cross next to Jesus, a thief who was near death and not in a position to walk in the light of Christ and learn and grow, then yes I suppose you are right. But to say “nothing else” needs to be done is simply not true.

        There is the parable (paraphrasing here) of the man who gave money to be looked after by his three servants, with two of them doing well with it, and one doing nothing with it. That latter servant paid the price for his idleness.

        Truth is though if you know and understand the grace of God and all it entails you will gladly go out and tell people the good news, and do so with a countenance of glory, along with the wisdom and power of Christ. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God they are the sons of God.

        All this turning of grace into license is not of God. It wasn’t back in the Apostles’ day and it isn’t now. Merely being loved by God does not encompass salvation in even the slightest.

  • Trilemma

    The Nashville Statement represents a particular interpretation of the Bible. Therefore, rejecting the Nashville statement is not rejecting the Bible but rejecting a particular interpretation of the Bible.

    • Shaquille Harvey

      What particular interpretation ?

      • Trilemma

        The interpretation that results in the beliefs expressed in the Nashville Statement.

        • GPS Daddy

          Nice circular reasoning… still at the spreading doubt and trying to undermine other people’s faith.

        • Shaquille Harvey

          How is it an interpretation?

          • Trilemma

            Some interpret the Bible in a way that makes them believe homosexuality and cohabitation are sins. Others interpret the Bible in a way that makes them believe homosexuality and cohabitation are not sins. The writers of the Nashville Statement obviously interpret the Bible in a way that makes them believe homosexuality and cohabitation are sins.

          • Gary

            The Bible is clear that homosexuality and sex outside marriage are immoral, Those who have a different “interpretation” simply do not believe what the Bible says.

          • Shaquille Harvey

            Except homosexuality and cohabitation have always exigetecally been understood as sins. It has only been recently that this has been denied by the pro homosexual activists and so on.

          • Trilemma

            Cohabitation was not a sin in the Old Testament. A man having a concubine was never called a sin.

          • Shaquille Harvey

            Perhaps watch this;

            https://m(dot)youtube(dot)com/watch?list=PLB651B36E9A90FEF4&v=-qERQNk_-W8

            If you have further issues with this topic please take it up with this person’s email I’m referring you to;

            jphold@att(dot)net

            (Please replace dot with real dot and remove brackets)

          • samton909

            That’s a laugh. Sme have chosen to pretend that what the bible said was not said at all. This is not an “interpretation”.So sorry, this is not about interpretations. It is about ignoring the clear words of the bible. The fact that you have some who are willing to ignore the bible does not make their stance a valid interpretation.

          • Trilemma

            And some have pretended the Bible said what was not said at all. It’s all about interpretation because the Bible is not as clear as many like to claim it is.

          • Chip Crawford

            Here’s why you have trouble with it:
            Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
            Prov 21:29 A wicked man hardeneth his face: but as for the upright, he directeth his way.

          • Dena

            Where in the Bible does it affirm homosexuality and cohabitation?….. you’ll find that it doesn’t. Instead it condemns it in both the old and new testaments.

            To interpret the Bible to affirm homosexuality and cohabitation- you will need to omit sections of the Bible or rewrite the Bible.

            Ultimately you are trying to excuse sin. Sin is what sends us to hell. Jesus didn’t die so we can live in our sins and sin all we want too. How were you serious about making Jesus the Lord of your life yet live a lifestyle of sin? If we continue to make excuses to sin we spit on the cross and the sacrifice Jesus made for us. Jesus loved sinners, but didn’t affirm their sin. He told everyone to repent of their sins and warned them of the consequences of sin and eternal judgement. Jesus can deliver us from sin and anything we are struggling with – including homosexuality.

          • Trilemma

            In the Old Testament, homosexuality is neither affirmed nor condemned. Homosexuality is a non-issue in the Old Testament. Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13 condemn a heterosexual man for raping another man.

            Of all the many times cohabitation is depicted in the Old Testament, it is never condemned as sin nor is there any command against it. In the case of King David, God endorsed cohabitation when He said He gave David multiple wives and concubines.

          • jumpstart

            Because they are.

    • Aaron Brown

      But some interpretations are better than others; don’t you think?

      • Hmmm…

        What are the rules of Bible interpretation? There are some generally agreed upon, and they are sound. But the most vital interpreter of the Bible is the Holy Spirit. He bears witness to truth and gives the Bible life for those who read, along with light and understanding. However, Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
        A lost person does not see as one who has the light of life. That simple. If you are unsaved, you walk in darkness. Hopefully, there are those who pray for them that light come to see the truth in order to be saved.

      • Trilemma

        Yes, I think so.

    • Hmmm…

      A lost person does not see as one who has the light of life. That simple. If you are unsaved, you walk in darkness. Hopefully, there are those who pray for you that light come to see the truth in order to be
      saved.

    • samton909

      No. Did you raad the article? Anyone who is a Christian understands that the Nashville statement reflects what the bible says. Period. Everyone who reads this odd statement from the Nazareth group realizes that they are ignoring the bible. Period. This is not about “interpretations” at all, any more than when I drive 60 miles an hour in a 40 mile an hour zone, I am merely interpreting the sign differently.

      • Trilemma

        It has everything to do with interpretation. Let’s take Leviticus 18:22. There are at least 6 different interpretations.
        1. It condemns a specific homosexual act.
        2. It condemns homosexuality among men and not women.
        3. It condemns all homosexuality including lesbianism.
        4. It condemns heterosexual men for engaging in recreational homosexual sex.
        5. It condemns a heterosexual man for raping another man.
        6. It condemns a heterosexual man for having sex with a male pagan temple prostitute.
        The writers of the Nashville Statement obviously go with interpretation number 3 even though interpretations 5 and 6 have stronger supporting arguments.

    • tether

      Are you that ignorant or are you just looking for an argument?
      If you read and understand the Bible then you would understand God.
      You would also know that this has little to do with the old Levitican Laws of Moses, and has much to do with Jesus, what He taught the 12 Apostles and they communicated to the churches. The message was this all sex outside of marriage is a sin. Marriage is between one man and one woman. That is the only way sex is not a sin.

      • Trilemma

        “If you read and understand the Bible then you would understand God.”

        Shouldn’t you understand God first before you try to understand the Bible? Otherwise, you’re just imposing your own understanding on the Bible.

        • tether

          Hardly, reading and studying the bible is part of how we get to know God. I am not talking about just salvation, I am talking about learning about God, and His ways. Who He really is, His traits, desires, expectations. Like when you meet someone on earth and want to get to know them. You have to spend time with them in conversation, and observe them and their ways.

        • jumpstart

          We are instructed by the Bible to read the word so we can understand the God of the Bible. You are logically incoherent in your reasoning.

  • JM

    Transgenderism is a sin and God did not create people transgender. why would God create a man but put him in a woman’s body? what sense would that make? ”I want you to be male but I am going to put you in the body of a woman” like really? didn’t God say that at the beginning he created them MALE and FEMALE? and this homosexual stuff. I have read (which of course, I reject because I believe that it is all BS) that homosexual men have brains of heterosexual women and lesbians have brains of homosexual men. why would God put a man’s brain in a woman’s head or a woman’s brain in a man’s head? why? homosexuals really believe weird stuff about God. homosexuals say God created them that way. last I checked. didn’t God command use to be fruitful and multiply? why would God command this then create homosexuals who are incapable of doing this? wouldn’t God be contradicting himself? two men and two women cannot have babies. so then why would God command this then create homosexuals knowing that homosexuals are unable to do this? homosexuals are just looking for ways to justify their sin.

    • el_polacko

      how do you explain the large number of babies who are born with indeterminate genitalia ?
      they aren’t children of god according to your personal interpretation ?
      jesus told us to love each other. you, on the other hand, seem determined to debase those whose life experiences you don’t understand.

      • JM

        ”how do you explain the large number of babies who are born with indeterminate genitalia ?” it’s called SIN, and also ”Jesus told us to love each other” doesn’t translate to ”I love you so I will accept your sin” you can love others without accepting their sins

        • el_polacko

          those newborn babies are SINNERS ?!?! good grief.
          i’ll pray for you, brother.

          • JM

            No, we are born in sin, so people being born deformed is a result of sin. that’s not saying people are born sinners.

          • el_polacko

            wow. just wow. so much hate in your heart. i pray that you learn to love your fellow human beings.

          • JM

            If you support homosexual sin than you are the real hater. telling people that it is okay to sin is hate. show me where in the Bible does it say that not supporting homosexuality is hate?

          • el_polacko

            “supporting homosexuality” is like ‘supporting blue eyes’ or ‘supporting blonde hair’. i see that you have little to no understanding of human sexuality. try picking up a book besides the old testament once in a while and learn a little something.
            god is love…you’re a hater.

          • JM

            The Bible nowhere says that God wanted some people to be homosexual. this is what society is teaching and telling homosexuals but the Bible does not support this. we see that God wanted heterosexuality for humans because we see that all of the relationships in the Bible are heterosexual and marriage and sex and family are all said to be between a man and a woman ONLY. I have a few questions that I want you answer. can you find me a homosexual relationship in the Bible? can you find me where God said he wants some people to be homosexual? can you show me where in the Bible is the born homosexual argument is supported? and can you show me where the Bible says that marriage and sex and family can be between anyone regardless of gender? if you can’t answer any of these questions than are you willing to admit that you are wrong?

          • JM

            Show me where in the Bible does God say ”I want a portion of humanity to be homosexual”

          • JM

            human sexuality is what God says it is, not what humans say it is

          • AndRebecca

            Maybe he needs to read the father of the sexual revolution Wilhelm Reich or one of the many apostates like Friedrich Nietzsche the author of “The Anti-Christ.”

          • AndRebecca

            Where’s the hate? Saying everyone is born in sin is hate?

          • m-nj

            JM… agree with the first part, not the second. We ARE born sinners, due to the original sin that is passed to all humans. Ask any new parents and they will tell you that although the baby does not have the means to act out as a sinner, it certainly has the disposition of a sinner… e.g., the baby is concerned exclusively with what makes it happy… i know we say it is just helpless and acting out of instinct, but that in an of itself indicates a sinned-tainted nature.

            that being said, the baby itself did not commit the sin that lead to its deformity (intersex or otherwise), but the overarching effects of original sin have tainted our whole being, body/soul/spirit.

        • James

          So who sinned, the child who was born with ambiguous genitalia or his parents?

      • AndRebecca

        There are very few babies born with the birth defect of indeterminate genitalia.

      • James

        Intersexuality is not the same as transgenderism. Quit muddying the waters.

    • Trilemma

      Why do you believe transgenderism is a sin?

      • AndRebecca

        Why do you transgenderism is not a sin?

        • Trilemma

          Why would I believe transgenderism is a sin when the Bible says absolutely nothing about it?

          • GPS Daddy

            You discount the bible as inspired so why do you reference the bible as if its your guidance? Again, there is that deception thing going on. Presenting yourself as someone who accepts the bible but in truth you totally reject it.

          • Trilemma

            Why would you believe transgenderism is a sin when the Bible says absolutely nothing about it?

          • Hmmm…

            You are working in the dark. Answers come in the light. The heart condition determines which one you have. Get real and here comes the light. But if you got that close, these foolish questions you are playing with right now would hardly be the ones, if any, you would proffer. Joh 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

          • Susan

            It is written that God created them male and female. It is also written in scripture these instructions regarding our behavior–“A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man wear women’s clothing, for the LORD your God detests anyone who does this.” While fashion designs have changed over the years, it is quite clear that God is telling people that a woman is not to dress or portray herself as a man and a man is not to dress or portray himself as a woman and thus, engaging in “Transgenderism” or attempting to impersonate or present ourselves as the opposite biological sex, is wrong in God’s eyes.

            When God spoke and gave His commandments to Moses, ( the basic moral and laws regarding sexual behavior), the issue and question was never about whether as Humans we do not experience these various types of desires or inclinations, but about God telling us Not to Act out on these type of desires or proclivities.

            God never gave any of us the “wrong body”. We were each given the body that He intended for us to have in this lifetime. THis is even true of those born with conditions such as Down’s Syndrome, etc. We may not understand His full purposes, but we were given and allowed the bodies that we were intended to have during our lifetime. This lifetime is but temporary and so are the bodies that we occupy at this time. Our bodies can be subject to disease, etc, but they are only temporary, not the eternal bodies that he will eventually give us, when we have loved, followed and obeyed Him and we pass into Heaven. If a person was born as a biological male, then Yes, God intended for that person to be living their life as the male that He already created them to be. If a person was created as a biological female, then yes, God created and intended for that person to be living their life as a female, as He created them to be. God did Not any mistake in giving them their biological sex, (which determines their true gender) or the body they occupy.

            The rest is simply a sad mental health disorder and state of confusion that these people need help with to heal and recover from so they are eventually able to accept and live with their God given bodies. There are now more and more former transgenders who have gone on to heal and recover from this disorder and are now coming forward to help others struggling with gender dysphoria. Those who came and gave their lives to Christ, experienced the most dramatic healing and recovery from this.

          • Trilemma

            Genesis says God created Adam and Eve male and female. It doesn’t say how He created anyone else.

            Deuteronomy 22:5 is not talking about transgenderism. It’s either talking about women should not go off to war while men stay with the women or it’s talking about cross dressing in relation to the worship of pagan deities. If a woman wears blue jeans does that make her transgender? If a transgender woman wears masculine clothing, does that remove the sin of transgenderism?

          • Susan

            You are attempting twist and distort scripture to fit into your own wants and desires, but it does Not work that way. Mankind has been doing that for ages with God’s word. We want and desire things badly and then we attempt to pervert and distort the Word of God to make it seem to fit into what we want or desire in life. We are to be seeking God and desiring to complete and fulfill His will, not our own. This is going on many fronts now. The complete twisting and perversion regarding God’s teaching on sexual behavior is occurring exactly for this same reason, Rather attempting to love, follow and obey God, we want to twist His word to make it seem that our human wants and desires, fit into that narrative. It is written that the heart of man is sinful.

            God gave each of us the bodies that He intended for us to live as. He did Not give any of us the wrong body or the wrong biological sex. We were given the biological sex that He intended for each of us to have and live with in this lifetime.. Sadly, some are getting caught up in the lies and deception of the “Father of all Lies”, Satan himself. Satan is described as the “great deceiver and destroyer” and His handiwork and handprint is tragically manifested in people who get pulled into “Transgendersim”. They first get pulled into the confusion, lies and deception that they were somehow “Born into the wrong body”. And then they progress to the next step of doing serious damage and destruction to their bodies, by pumping dangerous artificial hormones into their bodies and then later mutilating their bodies by having healthy reproductive organs amputated. First comes the confusion and deception and it is then later followed by doing destruction to their bodies. These are the handprint and manifestation of the– “great deceiver and destroyer”

            The solution to this issue, is turning back to Christ for healing and deliverance. Many former transgenders have experienced complete healing and recovery from this confusion as they turned back to Christ and He then healed and restored them. Some of these people had been caught up in this for several years and some had already made the sad mistake of already doing damage to their bodies, but they have since gone on to completely heal emotionally and spiritually and are now back to living as their real biological sex, which is their correct God given gender.

          • Trilemma

            I am not trying to twist and distort the Bible to say what I want it to say because I don’t need to. What I see is Christians who want to condemn transgenderism as sin trying to twist and distort the Bible to fit their wants and desires concerning transgenderism.

            The research that I’ve seen says that most children stop being transgender after the hormonal rush of puberty. So, I think any medical treatment such as puberty blockers should not happen until after puberty. Though I don’t think surgically changing one’s appearance is a sin, I think there needs to more emphasis on learning to accept one’s body. Many people are unhappy with the size of various parts of their anatomy. Changing one’s appearance does not guarantee happiness.

          • Susan

            Trilemma. I will only respond to this current issue one last time. God loves you and He deeply loves people who are caught up in transgenderism, as well as He also loves all of us. However, what he does not love is our sin and rebellion. If you are currently caught up in transgenderism you need to repent and get out of it. God deeply loves you and cares about you. He is willing to help heal and deliver you and anyone caught up in this confusion. But you have to turn back to Him with a sincere heart, wanting to earnestly change and repent. Pray and call out to Him, Ask HIm to come into your life and be your Lord and Savior and asking to heal and remove this confusion deep in your heart and soul. Tell HIm that you want to repent and get out of this and need to be healed and delivered from this. Jesus Christ is your precious Lord and Savior and He deeply loves and cares about you and will answer you. He has already done this for other former transgenders. One former transgender, who had been living his lifestyle for 20 years described of how God finally healed him and brought him out of this. He had already had breast implants, etc, and had been trying to live as a woman for many years. As he become to gradually draw closer to Christ, though, he came under full and literal demonic attack and he describes some of this or what it began to do to him. The spirit or demonic entity that had come into him, did not want him getting out or leaving this lifestyle. However, God is ultimately more powerful than any demonic entity and healed him. In a vision, God showed him an image of him living still as a male when he was a young boy and God said to him , “this is you”. And then showed him an image of him later attempting to live his life as a woman, and then God said to him, “this is not who you are”. At that point God showed him an artificial image of a female face or mask that was over him and began to gently lift off that artificial female mask that had been on him. He was completely and instantly healed. He went on to have the female breast implants removed and has returned to living now as a male, his true identity, that God already gave and intended for him. And he is now living to love and serve Christ, His precious Lord and Redeemer. His is now one of many testimonials of former transgenders who have turned to Christ and have been saved, healed and delivered from this.

          • jumpstart

            YUP.

          • GPS Daddy

            You any my question then I will answer yours… short misdirections or curt answers not allowed.

          • AndRebecca

            Well, since you want to reference the Bible, look up the Ten Commandments and see if transgenderism fits in with what God says to do and not to do. And also read Genesis and the Song of Solomon. In the NT it says to love yourself. Loving yourself in action means doing what will get you right with God.

          • Trilemma

            I don’t see anything about transgenderism in the Ten Commandments. Genesis says God created Adam and Eve male and female. It doesn’t say how God created anyone else.

          • AndRebecca

            I think another commenter has addressed you inability to understand the Bible.

          • Chip Crawford

            1Co_2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
            Rom_8:6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace
            Get saved and the lights will come on. But you are game playing anyway …No one is as dumb as you make out to be here.

    • James

      Do you believe people choose to be transgender?

      Do you believe mental illness is real?

  • CJL

    You responded to the criticisms that were easy to sum up as rejecting the Bible. Those, however, were not the only criticisms. People with a strong faith consistent with Scripture also had concerns. 1. Read the document carefully. You may notice something debatable in it. 2. Read what others said to understand it instead of to respond to it.

    • AndRebecca

      I read the document. It goes along with what I’ve read in the Bible. What is your problem with it?

      • CJL

        I actually did not say I have a ‘problem’ with it. I said that the article did not address the more complicated issues that people had. I kept my own opinion of the statement to myself because what I think seems less important than those issues.

        Read and consider the criticisms.

        • AndRebecca

          What are the more complicated issues that people had?

          • CJL

            They include:

            1. Bad timing: The statement puts emphasis on ‘other people’s sins’ at a time when our sins have been front and centre in the media.

            The incident at Charlottesville and other alt-rt incidents have involved people that identify as ‘us’. An American president who the media has emphasized that the majority of American Evangelicals supported made statements that the people who protested the White Supremicists were equally in the wrong. No group of Evangelicals have made a similar statement condemning racism and we know there isn’t going to be one. (Non-Evangelicals also know there isn’t going to be one.)

            In addition to the issues around racism, some Evangelicals have supported Trump in spite of the fact that he stands for attitudes that are contrary to biblical attitudes, including about sex. Unfortunately, some of those who signed are the same ones who expressed that Trump’s egregious statements were less important than… (I will let you fill in the rest of that sentence). There will be no statement standing for biblical attitudes towards lust either.

            2. Reference to pro-creation as part of a biblical definition for suitable sex: This has been hurtful to people who are infertile.

            3. Suggestion that supporting LBGT people puts a person out of Evangelicalism: Many Christians who believe that sex apart from a heterosexual couple who are married… to each other is sin have loved ones who identify as LGBT and struggle with feeling they need to be supportive even though they do not ‘approve’ of their lifestyle. Some people in that situation have been hurt, wondering where the statement leaves them.

            4. Denny Burk: It has been suggested that this individual’s significant contribution to the statement is fueled by his interest in making his other ideas more mainstream. Certainly it will have that effect.

            The concerns of other Evangelicals do matter, even if we are not directly impacted by the issues they raise. To be honest, I am not at all interest in hearing why those people do not matter.

            Others who do not share what we consider a biblical position on these matters have rejected the statement for other reasons. The usually include the observation that Evangelicals response to LGBT persons is hardly loving. I think we would do well to hear what they are saying instead of just dismissing them as unimportant.

          • AndRebecca

            1. Bad timing? Where have you been for the past 70 years with Christianity being under attack in this country by the government and the media? 2. You can’t be so unformed that you think there is an attack on infertile people by Christians. 3. Supporting unbiblical ideas DOES put a person out of Evangelicalism. 4. I have no idea of who Denny Burk is, but will look him up. And, get over you feelings of rejection by others, it is unchristian of you to be concerned with such a thing. You are to be concerned with rejection by your god, not people: Christianity 101. Antithesis.

          • CJL

            When I said that I was not interested in hearing why people didn’t matter, I was suggesting that if your response was that the Christian people hurt by this didn’t matter you need not respond. They are not my concerns… I am not infertile or struggling with responding to a gay child…..

            I am not concerned about being ‘rejected’. I am concerned about how we should reflect Christ to others. Saying that you don’t care about racism, lust, infertile people or Christians with gay loved ones does not reflect Christ. Refusing to hear Non-christian who explain that we don’t seem very loving isn’t either.

            1. No one is attacking Christians in the USA. People disagreeing with us is not persecution, even if they make fun of us!! Even if they were attacking us, that would be no excuse for ignoring racism and sexual sin.

            2.They didn’t mean to hurt infertile people is hardly an excuse for the carelessness of the statement.

            3. It would be more helpful to support people in how to take an entirely biblical position in their difficult situation rather than suggesting that needing to negotiate that hard situation makes them not Christians. I was careful to make clear that these were Christians who disagreed with their loved ones lifestyle.

            4. You need not look up Denny Burk. I doubt that you will care about the significance of his positions and their relationship to this statement as long as he parrots the ‘cultural wars’ rhetoric, which he does.

            It is easier for you to respond to what I didn’t say than to confront complicated issues…. I get that. I, however, live in a real world with a lot of complicated issues rather than spending my time in a Christian bubble with people patting me on my stupid little head assuring me that I am always right and when a Christian disagrees with me s/he isn’t really a Christian (or at least not a good one) and the Non-christian are being mean to me…. It is harder but better reflects biblical Christianity which tends to be messy.

            You don’t need to fell that you have to respond.

          • AndRebecca

            People have been attacking Christianity in the USA, especially in the schools and the courts actively since the 1940s, after WWII. You haven’t heard about getting prayer out of the schools? You’ve missed the sex education programs which go against Christianity? You haven’t heard of the removal of the Ten Commandments from public places? People on this site today are attacking Christianity! There are atheist talking point websites where trolls can go and get info, to get on a site like this, and make anti-Christian comments which sound convencing. And here’s the name of a textbook used in the schools since 1973 linking Christianity to racism and anti-homosexuality just like you have. “The Emergence of Deviant Minorities,” by Winslow. The book is about how Christian America needs to accept all sorts of behavior like pornography, homosexuality, juvenile delinquency, prostitution, marijuana use, etc. This is being taught in our government schools and it is anti-Christian. There are other text books which say child sexual abuse is O.K. George Lakoff is on you tube espousing his program to get rid of Christian thought, and he teaches at Berkeley. You can read online newspapers and see the attack. It is continuous. You can watch TV programs and not miss it.

          • CJL

            You only responded to the ‘cultural wars’ part of my response? OK. If that is the only thing that matters to you, I will only comment on that!

            No one can take prayer out of anywhere. Although it is funny, it is also true, that as long as there are exams, there will be prayer in schools. What happened is that there was a development of understanding that Christians were not the only people in the school. When I was a child, we said the Lord’s Prayer every morning and my Jewish friend stood out in the hall… every morning. You do not see this as an issue because you are so entitled.

            It is too bad that we were so ignorant about the issue of diversity. At one time I worked for an organisation that had an annual party in winter. In the interest of diversity, it was not a Christmas party. I pointed out that rather than respecting everyone’s celebration, it ignored everyone’s celebration. We put tables around the room, each explaining the celebration of a group of people. We had Kwanzaa, Chaunukkah, Divali, Christmas, etc. In that context, what Christians believed was welcome. I did the Christmas table with the gospel explained. If we had been less entitled when we started to have to share the school/workplace/world with others, our beliefs would be more welcome.

            Yes, there are atheists commenting on Christian sites. I understand that it hurts your little feelings. What I, however, find concerning about that is what they so often see of Christians when they are on our sites. I am embarrassed by how rude and stupid so many Christians are. I am not insulted just because atheists disagree with me.

            The problem, when there is one, with sex education in schools is that we leave it to them. We should do better sex education than they do! Instead, formal Christian responses are so often complaints about children learning information. I do not expect the school to teach my child a Christian view of sexuality… that is my job. I do expect them to respect my beliefs, which they usually do. I expect them to teach accurate information, which they also usually do. (I expect accuracy in all subjects….) When I have a concern, I am in a position to raise it.

            I also am knowledgeable enough to raise issues appropriately. I know the facts about teen sexuality, teen pregnancy, sexually transmitted diseases. I would never go in saying I want my child ignorant about birth control, but it is quite reasonable for me to point out that they should not present as if the students have an immediate need for such information because I know the percentage of high school students in our school district who are sexually active….. There was a survey. The percentage is lower than most people think!

            Racism and anti-homosexuality are linked to Christianity in North America. You have heard of the Klu-Klux-Klan? They are nice men who sit next to you in church on Sunday. Read Christian web sites and the comments ‘Christians’ make about gay people.

            We live in a big world with complexity. This is where we are to be as wise as serpents and as gentle as doves. Too often, public Christianity is as wise as a parrot and as gentle as a lion.

          • AndRebecca

            Now I know why we Christians are in trouble in America. You don’t think they can take prayer out of schools. Do you think they pray a lot in Muslim countries and in China? Get real. They have had homosexual sex classes in the schools where I live for the last thirty years and they give the classes without parent permission. They used to have family based sex education- no more. And now I’m supposed to think you are a Christian when you mock me by saying my “little feelings.” You are a great troll…you had me fooled there for a while. You folks sure like lying and pretending. No wonder you are against Christianity. I am happy I was able to draw you out.

          • CJL

            Actually, Muslims pray five times a day. Of course Muslims pray. In China, Christians and other people who practice a religion pray. (Yes, there are Christians in China… There are Christians in most countries in the world.)

            I am neither lying nor pretending. I am on the staff of an Evangelical church. I believe the same theology that your pastor tells you. I am a graduate of an Evangelical Bible College. It does not make me less a Christian that I think about what is happening in the world, about how we express ourselves and what that communicates to others. It doesn’t make me less of a Christian that I am concerned to hear that there were people struggling (with infertility, a gay family member) who felt that the statement was hurtful. A troll is someone who just posts for entertainment. I responded to you because I care about these issues and you asked what the issues were.

            I am not going to respond to you again. I think I have been very patient with you, even though you ignore what I said and respond like I said something different I repeat the concepts that are important…. and you still ignore what I said. Now you have resorted to the last appeal of the lazy Christian: If you don’t tell me what I want to hear, you must not really be a Christian.

            Christians are losing the battle for our culture, but no one took it from us. We gave it away. We associated ourselves with ignorance. We are not all racist or homophobic but we fail to call out the ones who are. The people around us noticed…. and they were unimpressed so they lost respect for us. They stopped listening to us and until Christians are kind, thoughtful, (and at least some of us) intelligent people, they will continue to assume that we have nothing to offer.

          • AndRebecca

            Ah, more propaganda. You are unaware of the persecution of Christians in Muslim countries and China, even though the persecution is on Christian news sites and even makes the main stream news when it gets bad enough… I’m aware that there are apostates in the church, like yourself. We’ve discussed that in this article. All sorts of Christians are concerned about gays and infertile people but do not talk about either subject in the way you do. Except people like Jimmy Carter who has joined a gay accepting church. Personally, I don’t consider him a Christian. A troll is a Leftist who has ways of searching the web in order to post on conservative sites when subjects such as homosexuality come up. There are paid trolls, just like there are paid demonstrators who march in the streets. I know when I’ve found a troll because they generally say they aren’t going to respond to me again. That’s when I know I’ve got them cornered. Christians are losing the battle for our culture because too many of them won’t stand up to the onslaught from the Left! Caving into the Left is not a winning stance! Having non-believers in the church is worse than a dumb idea. You are on the other side and do not appear to even know it. I guess your brainwashing has been very good.

          • m-nj

            “I am not concerned about being ‘rejected’. I am concerned about how we should reflect Christ to others. Saying that you don’t care about … Christians with gay loved ones does not reflect Christ.”

            What christians with LGBT loved ones need to hear is the truth. This statement clearly lays out that truth. Their “feelings” can be dealt with through pastoral ministry by their home church.

            For too long, supposed Bible-believing christians have changed their stance on LGBT if they find out a relative has identified as such. Maybe the saddest case is Matthew Vines, the poster child of the modern “gay christian” movement. His father is/was a pastor. Matthew’s family originally did not accept or affirm his coming out, but then his father apparently was swayed by Matthew’s emotional (e.g. non-Biblical) appeal, and changed his mind. Shame on his father. He could have loved his son without compromising the truth, and just continued to call him to repentance and reconcilliation. Instead, he empowered Matthew to not only live in his own sin, but to promote it to other churches. Both are now loading up milestones around their necks, so to speak.

          • CJL

            It is too bad that there wasn’t support for the Vines. When people feel like they have to choose between a biblical position and a loving one, there is a strong temptation to pick the one that seems loving. I see Christians accusing gay people of ridiculous things… so do the Vines. I hear all the time from Christians who have changed their minds about homosexuality being sin because they see only two possibilities: condemn or accept (person and lifestyle. This is our cultural reality at the moment…. a good statement would spend more time on how you love someone without agreeing with their same sex relationships….

          • Jeremy L

            This a serious question–and I’m probably going to regret asking it–but I can’t even find any reference to Vines even having a boyfriend. No mention of one in any of his bios, no pictures, no nothing. If he does have one, correct me. But let’s say he doesn’t. Let’s say he’s celibate. How is he “living in his own sin”? I thought only the act, not the attraction was the sin? Do you think people can and should become “unattracted” to the same sex? Would you instruct a gay loved one to do so, expecting them to be fully capable?

  • James

    So what if they do?

    If the Bible is causing harm to people, then what?

    • Gary

      I guess it could be said that the Bible is harmful to those who are convicted by it, but refuse to repent of their sins.

      • James

        So if you like sinning, better to avoid the Bible, then?

        • Gary

          For the sinner, the only comfort and peace of mind they ever might have is in this life. There will be none of that after they die. So, if they are determined to reject God, then avoiding the Bible might help them ignore the truth.

          • James

            So the deal is to follow the rules so that you will be rewarded in the next life?

          • Hmmm…

            1Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
            Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
            Religion is rules; Christianity is relationship – receiving Jesus as your substitute for sin and his atonement on your behalf; he gives you the free gift of salvation-comes in by spirit, takes you to Heaven when you die–the Great Exchange

          • jumpstart

            Jesus said in John 14:6 “I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but by Me.” God said, twice, “You are either for Me or against Me.”

        • Hmmm…

          Find messages to you for your condition and embrace them:
          These show the one sin that condemns a man or woman to be lost forever, if not repented:

          John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

          John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

          Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned

        • It all boils down to personal choices, James. Even the Bible itself acknowledges that fact…

          “He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin.
          – Hebrews 11:25

          But we will also all reap the consequences of those choices! The Bible also makes that fact quite clear. LGBT-pandering “Christians” seem content to simply bypass this critical teaching of Scripture.

          As a man who experienced unwanted homosexual attractions and desires, I never attempted to twist Scripture to conform to “me.” But rather, I made the prudent personal choice to try and see myself through the corrective lenses of Scripture! The people who’ve lashed out against the Nashville Statement are doing just the opposite.

          These “Christians” who seem to have no appetite for the Nashville Statement (nor for what the Holy Bible so clearly communicates in like manner), have placed the cart before the horse here, in the ways that they are attempting to conform Scripture to suit their own ideology, instead of conforming their ideology to that of the Holy Scriptures of the Bible.

          I am also a proud signatory supporter of the Nashville Statement, because I was also a believer and follower of Jesus Christ, and a disciple of what his written Word has to say of our human sexuality and gender, long before the Nashville Statement proclaimation was ever written.

          You can find more of my testimony on YouTube, by searching for “Dean Bailey – Following Christ to Freedom From Homosexuality”

    • samton909

      It’s not the bible that is telling people to engage in sex acts that the CDC says shorten your life. So I think you have things backwards.

    • Royce E. Van Blaricome

      The only way the Bible is gonna cause anyone harm is if somebody picks it up and beats you over the head with it. Even then it’s not the Bible causing you harm but the person behind it. And that’s true if you simply just read it. It’s the Person behind the words that cause you harm when you don’t want to be healed.

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