After the Orlando Shooting: Some Uncomfortable Truths about Christianity and Homosexuality

Claiming that Christians are responsible for the Orlando shooting is inaccurate and disingenuous. Here's a look at how Christians have historically responded to public displays of homosexuality.

By Michael Brown Published on June 22, 2016

In response to my article, “The Outrageous Attack on Conservative Christians After the Orlando Massacre,” one commenter wrote, “This vicious homo-narrative has been going on for YEARS — it’s a shame that it took this incident to make people listen.”

In other words, contrary to my claims, Christians really are complicit in the Orlando massacre.

Another commenter wrote, “Calling a group of American people perverted, sick, disgusting, child molesters, deviants, evil, depraved, wicked, a mentally ill chosen behavior while accusing them that they are out to destroy the country … and then spending billions on laws that hurt and discriminate … marginalizing them to the point of suicide and creating an atmosphere for hate crimes … doing everything to punish and shame them at an early age, kicking gay children out of their homes … destroying their families and preventing them from attaining their own … vicious, cruel, unrelenting …

“That is HATE. The ‘at least we don’t kill you’ excuse is a FAIL.”

Is there any truth to these claims? Am I wrong in saying that it is immoral and inaccurate to connect Christian teaching with the Orlando tragedy?

Before responding to these charges, let’s not forget that: 1) the murderer, Omar Mateen, pledged allegiance to ISIS in the midst of the slaughter; 2) he reportedly celebrated the 9-11 terrorist attacks when in high school; and 3) a man claiming to be one of his gay lovers says that the killings had nothing to do with Islam and everything to do with Mateen being slighted by Hispanic gays. (Could this be why he allegedly avoided killing African Americans in the bar?)

While the jilted-gay-lover claims remain unclear, what we do know is that the slaughter had nothing to do with Christian teaching.

But is it true that Christians are guilty of hating gays and thereby sparking a toxic, deadly atmosphere? I’m sure that some professing Christians have been hateful, and their words and actions have deeply wounded many in the LGBT community, with some children being driven to despair or even suicide as a result. Whenever I have encountered such hatred I have renounced it clearly and categorically — see here and here for examples — and I have counseled parents whose kids come out as gay to show them unconditional love while not compromising their own standards and values.

But there’s another side to the story which must be told, as uncomfortable as it might be. How did the last generation of Christians encounter homosexuality in the public square, beginning in the late 1960s? Christians encountered homosexuality at gay pride events and at “zaps” and other gay protests to the chants of “We’re here, we’re queer, get used to it!” They encountered scantily clad (or naked) men marching down the streets holding signs proclaiming, “God is gay and we want your boys.”

They encountered giant floats with massive phalluses; they encountered drag queens dressed up as Catholic nuns; they encountered topless female bikers celebrating “nipple freedom”; they encountered groups like NAMBLA, the North American Man Boy Love Association, marching in the parades; they encountered the celebration of every kind of sexual fetish, with some events exclusively focused on BDSM.

In fact, it was vulgar displays at a gay pride event in Charlotte, North Carolina in 2004 that first drew my attention to what was happening in the city.

The ugly truth is that gay pride events were infamous for their sexual displays, to the point that the Harvard-trained gay authors Marshall Kirk and Hunter Madsen addressed this in their watershed book After the Ball in 1989.

They wrote, “What it boils down to is that this community isn’t the personal turf of drag queens and pederasts … The actions of gay pride marchers don’t take place in a vacuum, and, as long as their disastrous tactics drag us down with them, we have a just cause for complaint” (147).

Kirk and Madsen were not happy with the bad rap the drag queens and pederasts were bringing to their community, and as part of their “Self-Policing Social Code,” they suggested the pledge, “If I’m a Pederast or a Sadmasochist, I’ll Keep It Under Wraps, and Out of Gay Pride Marches.”

As I asked in A Queer Thing Happened to America, “What would have happened to the civil rights movement if Black Pride rallies in the 1960s were marked by lewd public displays and a fixation on male genitalia? Wouldn’t this have discredited the whole movement, not to mention the people themselves, in a moment? And what if the immigration rallies of 2006 and 2010 were marked by nudity and gyrating drag queens? Wouldn’t this have severely damaged the cause of illegal immigrants?

“Could anyone imagine lewd public acts being associated with ‘Asian Pride’ or ‘White Pride’ or ‘Jewish Pride’ or ‘Muslim Pride’?” (296)

The point I’m making is that, by and large, the Church was confronted with the ugliest side of the LGBT community, and, for the most part, it is only in the last decade that many gay pride events have become much tamer, with quite a few wanting to be “family friendly.”

Yet even with all this, Christians were not physically attacking gays at these events. They were not stabbing them or shooting them, although they may have prayed for God’s judgment on these shameful displays.

But I ask again: Was such a reaction so surprising? Was it wrong to think that many (or most) gay men were pederasts, especially in light of the celebration of Greek pederasty of the past? And even to this moment, what are we to make of gay activists like Dan Savage who mock Bible believers and who advocate being “monogamish” rather than monogamous (in other words, having “open” marriages)? Does Savage represent the face of gay America?

As for allegedly “spending billions on laws that hurt and discriminate,” what we have done is respond to the onslaught of gay activism — fueled by its own billions — and said, “We don’t believe in redefining marriage, we believe in religious liberties, we believe in bathroom privacy, and we will fight for those things.”

That is hardly a position of hate.

Ultimately, now that Christians have engaged with family members, friends, and co-workers who identify as LGBT, some of whom attend church regularly and share many similar family values, these Christians have responded with a message of love, reaching out with compassion without compromising the truth, as hard as that truth may appear to be.

By God’s grace, we will continue to do this very thing, knowing that preaching the truth of the Scriptures leads to life, not death, to freedom, not bondage. And we will do this full of the love of God, repudiating hatred wherever we see it and renouncing calls for violence against gays as utterly and completely unchristian.

And we will do it despite the flood of hatred that comes our way day and night from many in the LGBT community.

We will not be the haters.

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  • Gary

    There can be no reconciliation between sodomites (lgbtq and their supporters) and Christians. They will always be enemies. There is no way to change that. Christians should stop trying to get sodomites to like them, or to listen to the Gospel. It is a waste of time and effort. We Christians should be happy that there will be no sodomites in Heaven. On this earth is the only place we will have to encounter them.

    • SMA905

      That is a load of rubbish. Every human being alive today is alive because God is giving them a chance to repent and be saved. I was a sodomite and I was saved by loving Christians.

      • Gary

        Not a thing you said is true.

        • SMA905

          John 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
          Are you familiar with this verse? Was this woman not a sodomite? Was she not saved by the love and grace of God?

          • Gary

            She was an adulteress. I don’t know if she was also a sodomite. And I made a mistake on my previous comment to you. But I corrected it.

          • BrandonRains

            Gary is a troll, don’t listen to him or respond

          • SMA905

            Gary is a fake Christian, he does not follow the teachings of Jesus.

          • Gary

            You have already admitted you’re a sodomite. You are lost and without hope.

          • Boris

            You can’t follow the teachings of Jesus or you’ll wind up on death row.

          • Liz Litts

            gary-speaking as a former adultress and fornicator saved by the grace and blood of the lord jesus –forgiveness is there for everyone–sin is sin is sin and the blood of jesus washes it all away.

          • Gary

            Only for believers. Unbelievers get no forgiveness.

          • Boris

            When women no longer find themselves attractive to men they turn to religion. Father time must not like women.

          • Liz Litts

            Nice try–thanks for playing

        • BrandonRains

          Please people don’t respond to Gary, he is troll and not a representative of Christianity

          • fights

            I’m thinking he’s not a Christian, just pretending.

          • Kangaroo52

            Glad you’re here to judge him, you’re doing great, God.

          • fights

            Are you judging me? I think he’s a liberal claiming to be a Christian. Ya know, to prove Christians are hateful. But you seem to be doing a good job.

      • Cowboy

        I am glad to hear of your victory brother.

    • Jeff Ludwig

      Paul said to leave them alone.

    • rob

      So you’re saying that there are sins God can’t forgive? Is the God we serve omnipotent or isn’t he? You need to repent of unforgiveness.

      • BrandonRains

        Don’t listen to Gary, he’s just trying to get us to argue. Dont feed a troll, they will never be satisfied

      • fights

        I’m thinking Gary is not really who he claims to be.

        • RoundRocker

          He claims to be a Christian, but he has proudly said in the past that he will not follow the command of Christ to “Love thy enemy and do good to those who persecute you”. He claims to love his neighbor, but only if they’re not gay, again in direct contradiction to the command of Christ.

          • Dean Bruckner

            “Love your enemy” is an order, a command, not a suggestion or recommendation. One of my chaplains in the service said that if we are condemning people to h3ll, we will be there with them. That’s God’s job. We can warn people of h3ll as Jesus did, but with humility, as I see with many on this comment board.

          • rob

            Well said.

      • Gary

        God can forgive any sin. But, God never, ever forgives anyone who refuses to repent of their sins.

    • BrandonRains

      Gary is a troll, don’t feed him

    • Boris

      So no Catholic priests in heaven then.

    • Boris

      No sodomites in heaven because there is no heaven.

  • Jeff Ludwig

    Well said Dr. Brown. The gays are morally repulsive to me, but I can transcend those feelings of disgust through Christ Jesus who strengthens me. Your answer is wise and balanced, but with homosexual cultural aggression against those who want to walk the “straight and narrow” path you describe, Christian aggression against gays is likely to increase. People will start thinking, “I can’t expose my kids to this kind of garbage in school bathrooms and in classrooms about ‘family’, making a complete mockery of thousands of years of history.” Although I have been a born again Christian for 28 years, when I grew up the entire subject of homosexuality was taboo. There was no gay movement among the people whether they were Jewish, Italian, or Irish (my neighborhood in Philadelphia). You describe a path of wisdom which is the same path I am on, but as the confidence continues to grow in the homosexual community since the Supreme Court validated their marriage claims, the effects on social intercourse will be momentous. Thank you sir for being a voice of reason and to some degree of love (“some degree” because you, like myself, are not happy with this social development). Let us go on trusting in the providential will of Almighty God to take us through the increasingly dark days ahead. As Scripture says, “He has not given us a spirit of fear, but of love, of power, and of a self-controlled rational mind.”

  • RoundRocker

    Good going! Blame the victims. It’s OK if gays are beaten and killed and gay kids thrown out of their homes and the entire LGBT community is vilified by sanctimonious “Christians” because some gay people cut loose at Pride. Got it. So if it’s OK to blame the victims like those in the Pulse attack by pointing out bad behavior on the part of some gay people at Pride, then it’s OK to blame the “Christian” church for hateful attacks on the gay community by pointing out the bad behavior of “pastors” who promote “death to gays” and wish the shooter had finished the job and praying the victims still in the hospital die. But I’m not surprised you don’t see the parallel. You’re upset that people often paint all “Christians” with the same brush, and in the next breath you do it to LGBT people.

    • Patmos

      He said the flood of hatred comes from many, not all.

    • sherri

      I had to reread the article as I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt. Seriously, I believe you could use some help with comprehension.

  • Patmos

    The LGBT Movement has a knack for wanting to change the definition of things to suit themselves, including the rebuke of immorality to somehow now mean hate. There’s clearly a lot of pain among people who are LGBT, and that is understandable considering we know a large percentage of them went through some form of abuse while growing up, and then even rejection for what they developed into as a result of that earlier abuse.

    When someone is hurt there is a tendency to lash out, even at attempts to show compassion. Love can eventually break through though, in spite of the lashing out at pearls throw to them. The love that breaks through is not the one that confuses lust for love, but rather the love that is preached in The New Testament. That love is tough love, and true concern for a person’s well being.

    Until The LGBT Movement starts to admit and tend to those hurting in their midst, they will only be a reckless and self serving movement that does little good.

  • Lania89

    I think ANY “Christian” who had an evolution on homosexuality should have to attend a gay pride parade to see exactly what they’re now supporting.

    • John

      If you want to stand around and watch me drink beer, be my guest.

    • Gary

      Real Christians never accept homosexuality as something good.

      • Boris

        Catholic priests sure do.

        • Shaune Scott

          No. Just no. Actively homosexual men who never should have been in the priesthood to begin with have damaged all the wonderful priests who are out there.

          • Boris

            I will grant you that. But the fact that the Church and the entire religion has been so corrupt is all the proof anyone needs that this religion was not divinely ordained by an omniscient God. Christianity is therefore a false religion. I do not believe such a person as Jesus Christ ever existed and I never have.

          • Shaune Scott

            You are certainly welcome to that belief.

          • Boris

            So are you.

  • Kangaroo52

    Since this horrible shooting, I keep seeing people on blogs claiming that gays and lesbians are frequently assaulted and murdered by Christians in America.

    They NEVER provide examples. Obviously Omar Mateen was NOT a Christian.

    Don’t let people get away with blaming Christians for anti-gay violence. Call them out on it. Demand concrete examples.

    • RoundRocker

      Even if people gave you concrete examples, the stock response is “They’re not really Christian if they do that”, so why bother? In my experience, every time I give an example of unChristian behavior from a person who claims to be Christian, the response is “They’re not really Christian”.

  • The Unknown Comic

    Are Closeted Gays the victims of pederasts and pedophiles?

    And does the victims’ rage, anger, and bitterness fuel the Gay-on-Gay Hate Crimes that are kept secret, but coming to light? Christians & non-liberals are not hating gays and committing hate crimes — Gays are.

    Google “What do you know about Homophobia?” Facts are stubborn things…

  • MaxFenster

    “Demand concrete examples.”
    Waaay back in the early 1980’s, when I was a young man, I was dating a girl from the small college I attended in upstate New York. She had a brother in the Air Force who had risen to become a non-commissioned officer. He was accused and convicted of “being homosexual” (not tied to specific actions). He spent five years in jail.

    At the time, I thought this was barbaric. I still do.

    When I read these discussions about who is a victim and who is not, I still think back about Gary being in jail for five years.

    • Jeanette Victoria ✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

      Look how far back you had to go…….this not quite the scenario leftists are painting is it that right wing Christian zealots want homosexuals killed all the time everywhere. A it should be mention that your friend was in the military where, until recently homosexuals were not allowed. He knew that. Military law is not the same as civilian law.

    • 0pus

      Since he joined the AF knowing its rules, he’s hardly a victim.

  • kristen f

    It just amazes me when I hear from homosexuals, “just because I sin differently than you doesn’t give you the right to judge”. You see the difference between a Christians/Others and homosexuals is that we are not “Proud” of our sins. We don’t try to make our sins okay with the rest of the world. We don’t have public displays and marches announcing pride of our sin. There are us who still have shame and ask for forgiveness. What ever happened to that? I just watch this world everyday on the internet and on the news and all I can do is shake my head because its sad to watch the fall of this world. I feel bad for the kids coming into this and are growing up in this world.

    • John

      Sin is a fiction. Made up. All in your head. I don’t say “I sin differently than you” because sin ain’t real.

      Love,
      An ex-Christian.

      • eliasasm

        That is not correct. Everyone believes that some things are “wrong” and others are “right.” Whether you use the word “sin” or not is a moot point.

        • John

          There is no standard of “right” and “wrong.” The concept of sin, as used in Christianity, is meaningless. You people use it as a cover for your own prejudices, which, frankly, I find pretty sick and self-absorbed.

          • Gary

            If there is no standard of right and wrong, then there is no reason for you to consider anything to be “sick and self-absorbed”. Hello.

          • John

            You don’t or won’t even understand the difference between subjectivity and objectivity. No point in arguing with you, really.

          • C Moesta

            You write awfully definitively for someone who understands his views to be subjective.

          • Gary

            I understand the difference. And I understand that what you say is BS. But you don’t understand that it is.

          • Boris

            You’re a troll and a liar. Typical Bible thumping moron.

          • brothergc

            go play with moose and squirrel boris LMAF

          • Boris

            Morality is based in choices and choices are rooted in values. For humans, the most basic choice is between life and death, so the ultimate value is life. Anything which protects, enhances and improves human life is termed “good” that which harms or destroys it is “evil.” So my basis for morality is objective because it is based on the value of human life itself. This leads to a far more compassionate and rational system than that of a deity whose whims cannot be understood and who is not constrained in any manner by the commands he gives to others. Your morality is subjective to the extreme because it is established by a being whose motives and very nature are absolutely beyond human comprehension which makes it impossible to discern any moral law beyond, ”God wills it.” This is why religious people are so dangerous and Christianity has such a violent and bloodthirsty past. You have no basis for morals or ethics.

          • Gary

            Can you prove that human life is the ultimate value? I don’t think you can.

          • Boris

            Morality is based in choices and choices are rooted in values. For humans, the most basic choice is between life and death, so the ultimate value is life. POOF. I hate having to explain things to herd animals like you.

          • jstan442

            so you feel okay if you steal, lie, cheat even murder someone?? you have no qualms?? you are truly sinner–may God help you to see the truth

      • Gary

        You have to be a Christian before you can be an “ex-Christian”. And you never were a Christian.

        • John

          That’s called a “No True Scotsman” argument, and it is a logical fallacy. Thanks for playing.

          • C Moesta

            Not if you understand Christianity. You know who aren’t “true Scotsmen”? Frenchmen. Sometimes pointing out the obvious is the opposite of a logical fallacy.

      • brothergc

        murder is sin , is that “fiction ” ?

  • Az1seeit

    Dr. Brown, while I admire your efforts, I am always amazed that you try to reason with this community. This is not a group controlled by reason, logic and especially not truth. Unless you stand in solidarity with them without qualification, you are a homophobe. I hope your consistently compassionate responses bear fruit, but I doubt that anything but the Lord Himself will break through. Of course, according to the bible, none of us would be any different had the Lord Himself not broken through. Prayers for your effort and His mercy. Respectfully.

  • Boris

    The only reason Christians are not stoning homsexuals, burning witches and books and murdering anyone who dares to study nature is because of the rise of secular humanism, deism, skepticism, atheism, free thought and so on. Just a couple centuries ago Christians were even more bloodthirsty and intolerant than ISIS is today. It is we unbelievers who have given the Christians their new morals and ethics and changed them from their evil and violent ways. I am so sick of hearing that atheists have to borrow their morals from this evil and false religion with such a hideous past. Christians get their morals from atheists because people who do not believe in the invisible man in the sky are the only people who have any kind of objective basis for morality. That would be the value of human life itself. The very thing that religion devalues with its false pie in the sky promises. Atheism is inevitable. In no more than ten years we will be the majority. We have your children already. So if I were you I would start hoping right now that we atheists do not treat you Christians the way you have treated us for the last 2000 years. Otherwise a few million of you might be used to toast marsh mellows. Think about THAT next time you accuse us of stealing anything from you. How do you like us now?

    • Gary

      The objective basis for morality is the value of human life? Can you prove it? You are the only atheist I ever saw who said morality is objective. Every other one insisted that morality is subjective. And that their subjective morality is the one everyone should follow. Of course they could never offer any rational reason why anyone should.

      • Boris

        Here’s the problem with Divine Command Morality. Believing in the Bible God leads to a very dangerous version of moral relativism. The commandment, “Thou shall not murder actually means “Thou shall not murder except when I tell you to do so.” According to the Bible, God often ordered what we would now term “ethnic cleansing.” Saul was directed to completely exterminate the Amelekites, including all the men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and donkeys. Saul lost his monarchy and eventually his life because he failed to carry out the instructions to the letter. Even the slaughter of infants is termed “good” when ordered by God under particular circumstances. That is moral relativism at its starkest. For humans morality is based in choices and choices are rooted in values. The most basic choice is between life and death, so the ultimate value is life. That which enhances and protects human life is good or right and that which harms or destroys life is evil or wrong. This leads to a more compassionate and rational system than that of a deity whose whims cannot be understood and who is not constrained in any manner by the commands he gives to others. Your biblical morality is subjective to the extreme because it is established by a being whose motives and nature are beyond human comprehension. This makes it impossible to discern any moral law beyond “God wills it.” Now you can try to at least attempt show why my morality is not objective and why your morality is not subjective to the extreme, not to mention inferior and dangerous. Good luck with that. My knowledge came from college not this bastion of stupidity we are on, the Internet. All of this arguing between theists and atheists is just both sides cutting and pasting from Internet websites. This is why you have never seen this fact that morality is objectively based on the value of human life itself. I know a lot about this subject because it was taught in elementary school before the Republicans dumbed down our schools knowing that educated people would never vote for them This is why we are in a mess today. We had to learn, do our sums and tables. That’s gone and if you’re under 50 the chances are 90 percent that you cannot even add, subtract, multiply or divide in your head. That kind of stupidity and ignorance did not exist when I was young. It’s no wonder you haven’t a clue about this subject. why would you?

        • jstan442

          the amalekites were to be exterminated for their lifestyle (sodom and gomorrah and as in the days of noah morals–and their wanting to destroy the jewish ppl when they were escaping egypt deut 25:17-19 God said He would destroy them in exodus 17:8-14) they were pagans who were infesting His ppl with their evil ideas like child sacrifice (abortion in today’s terms!)

          • Boris

            Oh please the Israelites were never even in Egypt. The Passover event is a fiction. If every Egyptian first born child all died one night how come the Egyptians don’t know anything about this? The Bible is nonsense.

          • brothergc

            not true

          • Boris

            Prove it. POOF ROFL

          • brothergc

            prove me wrong you made the claim

          • Boris

            That is called shifting the burden of proof a common logical fallacy made by Bible thumpers. If Christians could recognize logical fallacies they wouldn’t be Christians. You said, “not true.” What isn’t true and why isn’t it true?

          • brothergc

            you do not want truth just to poke fun at the christians and even if I did supply the truth you would not believe it so what is the point ?

          • Boris

            Typical Christian cop out. You don’t have the truth and we both know that.

          • brothergc

            Typical troll responce , I do not feed trolls , I have them for breakfast !

          • Boris

            Cop out. You’re a coward. Christianity only appeals to the base human emotion of cowardice. “Worship me or I will torture you forever” – God. (According to other people). Christianity is just brain dead.

          • brothergc

            so we are stooping now to name calling now are we ? what is next ? More insults ? grow up and act Your age instead of Your shoe size

          • Boris

            The reason I said that is because almost every Bible believer I come in contact with pretty quickly becomes angry when I question them with questions Christians have been taught it is sinful to even ask. Then they call me ignorant and a liar and then tell me their daddy is going to scold me and then burn me forever and ever and ever and if I don’t believe them it’s because I’m evil and a liar. So obviously Bible believers try to believe what they do because they are afraid not to. I’d call that cowardice. What else would it be?

          • brothergc

            God bless you jesus loves you

          • brothergc

            just like your responce is , I have a book that says otherwise . The Jews celibrated passover for why now? , oh snap that is right , they had nothing better to do ? Yea right LMAF
            Oh since you say that thie “is no God” Then I guess we all came from a rock ? You cant prove evolution . it is still ” just a theory

          • Boris

            My parents were Jewish. The Passover event is fictional. If every Egyptian first born child all died on one night, that would have been the worst human tragedy ever and would have left a mountain of evidence as well as written testimonies. However the Egyptians know nothing of this event or of the Israelites ever being in Egypt which why there is no evidence at all for any of the Exodus events. In science a theory is an explanation of the facts. The Theory of Evolution explains the fact of speciation (macroevolution) and common descent (the fact that all living things are related). Evolution is taught exactly as it is taught in secular schools at every Christian college and university in the world that teaches life sciences, even Wheaton college. So why don’t you trot on down to your local Christian college or university and ask the scientists to explain why they teach evolution there? When you can get any of your own Christian schools to teach woo woo instead of evolution you let me know.

    • jstan442

      you say that as you abort the unborn and want euthanasia to become normal–if you have morals it was written by God on your heart–before the flood the ppl were doing, thinking evil at all times we humans are regressing back to that inhuman time

      • Boris

        You are a binary thinker. Everything is either right or wrong, black or white. That isn’t how the world is. Abortion is probably wrong in most cases. However forcing parenthood on people who do not want it, cannot afford it or are not ready for it is ALWAYS wrong. You want to force women to undergo a 9 month pregnancy that they do not want to endure. Well this is a free country so if you don’t like the laws GET OUT. An average of 186 women die every day from botched abortions in the theocracies where abortion is still illegal. This is the kind of holocaust you want to bring upon this country. I can just see you thumpers dancing for joy every time some poor women bled to death because she tried to end a pregnancy. Or someone is arrested for murder because she dumped a newborn child in a dumpster. You Christian fascists make me sick.

        • Royce E. Van Blaricome

          Thank you for once again showing what an individual turns into when they reject God and His love for them. You really didn’t need to tell us that we make you sick as your words do a quite adequate job of delivering that message.

          But here’s a little Newsflash for you: We ain’t going anywhere. Now, of course, if you don’t like that, you can always GET OUT!

          And thank you for showing that the God-haters think it’s perfectly acceptable for babies to be thrown in dumpsters and get away with it scott free. It’s always appreciated when you do our job for us and we don’t even have to shine the light to reveal your darkness.

          • Boris

            God haters? You cannot hate something that does not exist. How dense are you?

          • brothergc

            Well one day you will sing a different tune , we will be Up in heven roasting marshmallows while You will just be plain “roasting ” and You call us dence

          • Boris

            Another desperate claim without a shred of evidence to support it. There isn’t one religious belief that you cling to that is supported by even a tiny shred of evidence. But that doesn’t seem to bother you. That is just SO funny to us atheists. That might sooth your wounded ego but it’s an empty threat. You and I will be in the same place about million years from now. Nowhere.

          • brothergc

            My wonded ego ? LMAF I have no ego to wound

            “You and I will be in the same place about million years from now. Nowhere”
            Prove it , We both know You can not and it would take faith to believe so , faith in … nothing

          • Boris

            “My wonded ego ? LMAF I have no ego to wound” Really? You actually believe this entire universe was created and designed especially for your species. You actually believe that you have a personal relationship with the supposed creator of this universe. And it just so happens that all the people you love God loves and all the people and things you hate, your God just happens to hate them too. What a marvelous coincidence. Lucky you! That is not only an ego gone into orbit it is the kind vanity I cannot even imagine. I’m not taking anything on faith. I don’t believe in life after death because in college we learned where that superstition comes from. The ancients saw their dead friends and relatives in dreams, didn’t know what dreams were and so they thought the dead may still be alive in some kind of netherworld. When they discovered agriculture they became a little obsessed with the grain and cereal cycles and the theme of death and rebirth. That’s all there is to it. The fact that some people still cling to these beliefs is understandable since the human mind has trouble conceiving of its own non-existence.

          • brothergc

            and you believe that the universe came from what ? Lets here your side seeing that acording to you , you know more then The christians . Be sure to present You evidence of how the universe exists and how it started

          • Boris

            According to modern cosmology the mass-energy comprising our universe has always existed in some form. There was never just nothing. So the universe did not have a beginning, it has always existed. If space-time began to exist with the expansion of the universe from a singularity then there was no time before the universe began to expand about 13.7 years ago. So it’s tempting to ask what happened 14 billion years ago, before the Big Bang. However there was no 14 billion years ago. So it’s like asking what is north of the North Pole? Now your hypothesis that a wizard with magical powers had to use sorcery and a magical incantation to bring the universe into existence is not science. Science does not consider magic, sorcery or incantations as valid explanations for anything. You creationists are going to have to do a,little better than that.

          • brothergc

            “According to modern cosmology the mass-energy comprising our universe has always existed in some form.”
            Gee sounds like God to Me He is eternal

          • Boris

            Yeah except, unlike any Gods, we know the universe exists. That doesn’t take faith and someone threatening you with eternal damnation to believe.

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            Oh, He exists! And you know it too.

            “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.” Rom. 1:18-19

            Talk about dense! LOL Take the Giant Sequoia Tree outta your eye socket and you’ll be able to see better.

          • Boris

            Oh please with the religious dogma. The universe and life itself just as they should if there is no God. Evolution is a fact. Just ask them at any science department at any Christian college or university in the world. They all teach evolution, even Wheaton College. You’re the one who can’t see straight. Science denialism is so funny.

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            Ok, since you asked…”

            “and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.” (Rom. 1:32)

            “But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.” (Jude 1:10)

            “Evolution is a fact.” Uh, NO it is NOT!! It’s a THEORY. Thank you for showing yourself as a Liar.

            “But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all LIARS, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” (Rev. 21:8 emphasis mine).

            What is taught, at least in most educational institutions and text books, is the “Theory of Evolution”. That is a fact and it is a fact because it simply can NOT be proven. You believe in Evolution by faith. Too bad you can’t be intellectually honest about that and rather choose to be churlish. Work on that and maybe your eyesight will improve.

            And there’s nothing funny about denialism of God. In fact it’s pretty sad.

            “The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God,” (Psalms 53:1)

          • Boris

            “Evolution is a fact.” Uh, NO it is NOT!! It’s a THEORY. Thank you for showing yourself as a Liar.”
            “The word theory, in the context of science, does not imply uncertainty. It means “a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena” (Barnhart 1948). In the case of the theory of evolution, the following are some of the phenomena involved. All are facts:
            Life appeared on earth more than two billion years ago;
            Life forms have changed and diversified over life’s history;
            Species are related via common descent from one or a few common ancestors; Natural selection is a significant factor affecting how species change. Many other facts are explained by the theory of evolution as well.” Talk Origins
            You creationists are afraid to read the scientific literature on the science that debunks your Bible. So you when make the kind of ignorant claims you just did you let everybody know you don’t have a clue about science. You don’t even know what a theory is! ROFL! Neuroscientists have used experiments and demonstrations (creationists hate those because they can’t do any) to prove conclusively that human free will is an illusion. Another fact you have to deny even though you know nothing about the subject at all. All the finding fo science, ALL of them run contrary to the teachings in your supposedly infallible holy book. That just infuriates you doesn’t it? tell the truth now. Oh that’s right your a Christian. Never mind. You can’t.

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            Thanks again for showing the idiocy of the Atheist and the inability to even exercise common sense logic and reason. There is NO evidence that life appears on earth more than 2 billion years ago. The fact you can’t see it takes faith to accept that speaks volumes and says all that really needs to be said. LOL

            Again, you don’t know what you’re talking about and just show your ignorance. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to do a simple, honest research on the subject to find there are plenty of Creationists who are scientists and have, in fact, many of the so-called scientific suppositions by Evolutionists. It’s not the Creationists who continue to put information in text books and teach about so-called scientific findings that have absolutely been debunked and that IS agreed on by the entire Evolution Scientific community.

            Contrary to your claim it’s not the Creationists who are afraid of the Truth. It’s the atheist Evolutionists. As for Creationists hating experiments and demonstrations, do a little Google search of “RATE” and the demonstrations that were put forth at the Worldwide Scientific Symposium held in San Francisco. Thanks for publicly showing your ignorance once again and your close-minded resistance to even being intellectually honest. Always appreciate when you and your ilk discredit yourselves for us.

            Nope, doesn’t infuriate me at all. But again, love the fact that you show yourself and your mindset for all to see. I understand though. Cheap shots, false accusations, and ad hominem is all you have and all you can resort to.

            Do hope you’ll see someone about that god-complex because quite the contrary, Christian can not only tell the truth – we are.

          • Boris

            “It’s not the Creationists who continue to put information in textbooks and teach about so-called scientific findings that have absolutely been debunked and that IS agreed on by the entire Evolution Scientific community.” ROFL! Just lie, lie lie. How has macroevolution been debunked exactly? If you do not answer the question you lose the debate. And you won’t because you can’t answer it. The scientific community ignores you creatards and that is what makes you so angry. Science does not consider supernatural claims for a lot of reasons but one very important one. The only way we could ever accept a supernatural explanation is to first eliminate all possible naturalistic explanations. But you could never be sure you’ve done that. So science will never consider your claims that a magic wizard used sorcery and a magical incantation to speak the universe into existence. Science will never accept the claim that life could only have come from non-life through the use of Christian woo woo. Say take you fear laden superstitions and try to pass them off on someone less educated than you are. Good luck finding ANYONE as poorly educated as you are. How come you could not even find one Christian college or university that teaches science that does not teach evolution? Not even one. You lied about that too and everyone reading this will see you are a typically ignorant Christian liar.

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            There’s that little problem of the Sequoia Tree sticking outta your eye socket showing again. I’ve already pointed out where you’ve shown yourself to be the Liar right here in black & white.

            And you talk about ROFL!! Ha! You think this is some sort of game? A debate? Golly Gee Wally, get a life!!! The only Loser is the game is YOU if you continue on the road you’re traveling and one day6 as “brothergc” said below, you will find that out.

            “creatards”. Thank you again. Always appreciated, just as you have done in every one of your posts, when you show your ignorance and how uncouth the Atheists are when it comes to their worldview and perception of others. Just another natural consequence of the narcissistic personality disorder commonly referred to as a god-complex.

            I do hope you’ll seek the help you need. The best help would be found at the foot of the cross but maybe you can find some secular resource to help you with your NPO and your anger problem. For sure everyone will see a “typically ignorant liar” and it’s always easiest to see when folks point it out themselves with their empty rhetoric, personal attacks, character assassinations, and ad hominem.

            Now, I’ve cast enough pearls in your direction. More than I should have. You’ll get no more of my time or truths. I shall now leave you to root and wallow in your own filth and squalor.

          • Boris

            You tell people essentially that, “If you don’t play with us or if you make fun of our childish games, our daddy is going to beat you up real bad and then burn you forever and ever and ever! And if you don’t believe that it’s because you’re a liar and an evil person.” And then you complain how people talk to YOU! Your lack of self awareness is astounding.

    • Royce E. Van Blaricome

      Thank you for proving God’s Word true and revealing your heart by what came outta your mouth. As for “Atheism is inevitable”, actually it’s quite the opposite that is true. All will one day be a Believer. Carl Sagan is a Believer now. Christopher Hitchens is a Believer now. And one day you will be too. That’s why there is gnashing of teeth in the Lake of Fire.

      Well, at least one of the reasons. The Eternal Torment is, of course, another but how terrible it will be to spend ALL Eternity with the nagging thought that you’ve wasted your life by trolling in an attempt to harass Christians.

      And btw, thank you for showing everyone what your real agenda is. You’re only deceiving yourself to think you have our children. LOL The good news is you won’t have to worry about us using you to toast marshmallows as Heaven is gonna be so grand that the thought of the Lake of Fire won’t even be on our minds. Let alone being anywhere in close proximity.

      • brothergc

        wow what a outstanding reply I applaud you

      • Boris

        As for “Atheism is inevitable”, actually it’s quite the opposite that is true.” About 53,00 American Christians leave Christianity every week. Atheism is the fastest growing demographic there is. Typical of a Christian you deny facts. Par for the course, it’s what you do. “All will one day be a Believer. Carl Sagan is a Believer now. Christopher Hitchens is a Believer now. And one day you will be too. That’s why there is gnashing of teeth in the Lake of Fire.” I’d ask you for evidence for this lake of fire but we both know it’s just fantasy you fundies cling to because you want so badly for the people who mock and ridicule you to suffer eternal torment. However the Christian torture chamber is just as imaginary as your Jesus who never even existed. “And btw, thank you for showing everyone what your real agenda is. You’re only deceiving yourself to think you have our children.” 3 out of 4 Christian college students reject their faith before they graduate. Evolution is taught in every CHRISTIAN college and university in the world that teaches life sciences, even Wheaton college. Oh yes we DO HAVE your children. “LOL The good news is you won’t have to worry about us using you to toast marshmallows as Heaven is gonna be so grand that the thought of the Lake of Fire won’t even be on our minds. Let alone being anywhere in close proximity.” That might sooth your wounded ego but it just illustrates the desperation of your hopeless position. I know OTHER PEOPLE frightened you with those taunts. Ask yourself why no one else is afraid of your taunts of the same thing. Science has steamrolled your religion into oblivion.

        • Royce E. Van Blaricome

          All that and you didn’t prove one single thing I said is wrong. Not only that but, as usual, you made claims you have NO evidence for whatsoever. Your claim that 53,000 American Christians leave Christianity every week is not provable and I submit does prove exactly what the Bible says about the many who are Posers and never believed in the first place. God also speaks of a great falling away who do not stand fast and firm on faith when faced with trials, tribulation, and persecution. MANY can’t stand to even take the heat that comes from a little mockery and ridicule that comes from the likes of you.

          You ask for evidence of the Lake of Fire. I ask for evidence there is not. And your faux omniscience completely misses the boat when it comes to why we know there is one. NO Christian “wants so badly” for people like you to suffer for all Eternity. It’s simply a fact we tell you to warn you and in the hopes you’ll surrender to Christ and repent.

          And no, Evolution is NOT taught in every Christian college and university in the world. But thanks for continuing to further discredit yourself and Atheist claims. Go right on deluding yourself as you will but I can assure you and know many Christian children that you do NOT have!!

          No wounded ego here. But again, thanks for showing in black & white to all you can see the thought process of those who choose to be their own god. You don’t “know” squat and you’re just dead wrong in your claim that other people frightened me with “those taunts”. LOL Have you thought about seeking professional help for your delusion and god-complex?

          “steamrolled your religion into oblivion”? LOL Better do some more researching. Christianity and the Kingdom is growing in leaps and bounds.

  • Boris

    How do we know the author of this article is not a self-loathing homosexual like the shooter was? Just asking.

    • Royce E. Van Blaricome

      No, you’re not “just asking”. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out the answer to your question. Dr. Brown is not some obscure “Who?” that is hard to find what he’s written and stands for.

      Almost as easy and making a character assassination when one doesn’t have anything substantive to rebut with.

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