Kathy Griffin, Cheap Grace, and the Mechanisms of Evil

Griffin is following the same playbook as apologists for Islam and the LBGT lobby.

By John Zmirak Published on June 2, 2017

Kathy Griffin is messing with me. I was all set to write a column about the “rush to forgiveness.” Now she has gone and short-circuited that by retracting her apology, like a bratty, defiant first-grader. But I won’t let that stop me. I’ll just add more at the end.

Surely you’ve seen Kathy Griffin’s wannabe ISIS photo. Maybe you’ve seen her hard-to-watch, traumatized video message of apology. Stunned by the backlash against her “let’s behead the president” photo stunt, Griffin seemed chastened and sorry. Not as sorry as Mel Gibson seemed after his drunken, anti-Semitic rant a decade ago. But sorry enough for some.

Online commentators who’d given no sign of forgiving Gibson for an intoxicated outburst treated Griffin very differently. They demanded that the rest of us accept her apology and move on. Presumably, we should accept her back into the charmed circle of highly-paid celebrities and cultural commentators after that apology. Because, you know, hosting TV specials is a basic human right. Even when you’ve worked for weeks on thinking through and preparing an image that encourages the ISIS-style execution of a U.S. president.

Meanwhile, Gibson (who suffers from bipolar disorder) is still amassing particles of forgiveness for something hateful he said while blind drunk. Double standards, anyone?

Sex Abuse and the Rush to Forgiveness

Some made Christian arguments for why we should take Griffin’s sorrow at face value and accept it. That’s what really bothered me. Mostly because I’m watching Netflix’s powerful series The Keepers (my full review runs next week). It covers the clerical sex abuse crisis among Catholics. I have read deeply and widely about that crisis, and learned about one of the key reasons that child rapists were set loose and allowed to rape again: Cheap grace and rushed forgiveness.

Clerics who’d used the confessional, or counseling sessions, or other positions of trust to prey on vulnerable teens hid behind that “cheap grace.” And often it worked. They’d combine a trip to confession, a crying jag in the bishop’s office, and a couple of months in “counseling.” That’s the modern version of a penitential pilgrimage to Jerusalem.

Then voila! They were ready to coach middle school wrestling teams again. To take boys on camping trips to the woods. To counsel fatherless tweens. If they fell again, they repented again, and pretty soon they were in a position to blackmail the bishops who’d rushed to forgive and forget.

Lest you think this is a Catholic problem: Some Western European countries are letting Muslim immigrants who left their countries to go fight for ISIS return and go back on welfare. Read those words again, one by one.

“Penitent” Nazis at Nuremburg

Clearly what these authorities are offering is not Christian forgiveness. It is a despicable liberal caricature of the Gospel. It’s Christian charity watered down to homeopathic doses. When God forgives a murderer, that shouldn’t get him out of jail time, or even death row. The chaplains at Nuremburg made that clear to the Nazi war criminals who bared their souls. Some even repented. That didn’t spare them the noose. Nor should it have.

God can afford to wipe our sins away and offer us a clean slate. He has several attributes which none of us (not even wealthy, liberal bishops or Scandinavian socialist bureaucrats) can boast:

  • Perfect knowledge. So He can read a sinner’s heart, and see if he’s sincere. (We can’t.)
  • Infinite power. So He can give a sinner more grace if he needs it and will accept it. (We really can’t.)
  • Eternal life, impassibility, and limitless resources. No sinner can really harm God. In one sense they can harm Jesus, Who eternally hangs on the Cross for our sins. But Jesus accepted that. He is willing and able to take it. (We can’t. If someone molests our son, or even loots our retirement account, those losses are irreparable.)

We have none of those divine attributes. Pretending we do is a piece of arrogant hubris. If some sociopath with a track record of lying and stealing claims that he found Jesus, that’s great for him. Pray that it’s true. But if you hire him to run your non-profit’s finances, you are worse than a fool. You’re reckless. And that’s a sin. Likewise, no child molester, however penitent, should ever be left near children. And no terrorist should ever leave prison.

What Griffin Should Have Done

Nor should we welcome back a public figure who has mocked the victims of terrorism to play at killing the president of the United States. The right thing for Griffin to do would have been to discreetly contact the families of Jewish journalists or Middle Eastern Christians — people who died in the same gruesome way she depicted in her Trump murder fantasy. She should have begged their forgiveness, both privately and publicly. Then she should have done long years of work for victims of terrorism. Pro bono. Zero salary. She should have worked at Krispy Kreme if necessary, purging in the sweat of her brow over hot grease her arrogance and malice.

Instead, she chose to playact. Her “apology,” we now know, was fake. She was stunned by the damage her career might suffer from her sadistic photo stunt. So like a chastened narcissist, she tried to manipulate us. She apologized to her fans — not to family victims of terrorists. Not to President Trump and his family. Not to millions of voters and her fellow citizens.

And now she has taken all of it back. Now she’s posing as the “victim” of “bullying.” At the hands of the people she victimized. Because they dared, dared to push back. To criticize her for , in effect, endorsing the murder of the president.

Beware of Griffinophobia

Words almost fail me. Has Griffin read the playbook of the Council on American-Islamic Relations? You know, the people who greet each terrorist attack with a solemn warning against Islamophobia? Will we soon hear of people losing their jobs because they indulged in Griffinophobia?

Even more, Griffin is enacting, within a single week, the arc of the LGBT movement’s attack on biblical Christianity.

Gay church activists use Christian mercy as the thin end of the wedge. They accuse those who guard against acceptance of sexual sin of being Pharisees. Of wanting to stone the adulteress whom Jesus Himself is sheltering. Of pride and hardness of heart. If they prevail and get some ministries approved that are more “accepting” of their tendencies, it never, never stops there.

Soon enough, those ministries have dropped talk of sin and forgiveness. They outright affirm the sexual practices that biblical Christians must condemn. (Meetings of the Catholic pro-gay ministry Dignity became “meat markets” for gays who weren’t even Catholic.)

LGBT activists target and try to marginalize any Christians who resist them — including genuinely penitent souls who suffer with same-sex attraction. It’s exactly as if pushy Jose Cuervo pitchmen took over an AA meeting — to mock, denounce, and exclude those who insist on remaining sober. I have seen these activists pull this off again and again in Catholic circles. They have conquered most Mainline Protestant churches. And they’re coming for the Evangelicals.

Griffin sniffed the air, and realized that she could get away with all of this. That she could cast herself as the victim in this farce, and become the most hardcore icon of anti-Trump “resistance.” She may even be elected as the next Democratic senator from the State of California.

But still, she has done us a favor. She has given us all a lesson in the mechanisms of evil. This is how hard it really is to repent. This is how ugly unrepented sin becomes when it festers. This is why the Son of God Himself had to hang up there on that cross.

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  • Gary

    I don’t understand why anyone, including Kathy Griffin, cares what Kathy Griffin’s opinions are.

    • Roy_Munson

      Yes, because looks are what’s most important! LOL

  • Timothy Horton

    You should thank Griffin. She has given you holier-than thou religious conservatives something to scream about and act all sanctimonious over for the next few weeks. That way you can ignore the fact your fat-headed giant Cheeto of a leader single-handedly managed to screw over the planet’s environment so his oil and gas company buddies could line their pockets even more.

    • Patmos

      Uh, you’ve taken a progressive talking point from like 2005 and tried to apply it to today. You’ve always struck me as confused, but can you at least be current and confused?

      • Timothy Horton

        Your moron of a President is the one who just pulled out of a world-wide climate treaty solely because his disgustingly dishonest oil and gas industry advisors told him to. This is despite virtually every scientists on the planet telling him anthropogenic climate change is a real threat and need our immediate attention.

        • Patmos

          So no? You can’t at least be current?

          • Timothy Horton

            You obviously can’t be honest.

          • Patmos

            Take a chance to actually look into the accord and what it does (which is basically nothing). It might relieve you of some of your misguided anger.

          • Timothy Horton

            I have. I analyze the impacts of climate change on local ecosystems as a profession. Why don’t you try reading some reports and analysis from the primary scientific literature instead of getting your “science” from RW propaganda hack sites like Breitbart. I recommend Nature Climate Change put out by one of the most well respected scientific journals in the world.

          • Micha_Elyi

            “I analyze the impacts of climate change on local ecosystems as a profession.”–Timothy Horton

            Ha ha. You haven’t lived long enough to personally observe “climate change” occurring in any “local ecosystem”.

            Oh by the way, have you ever noticed that we are currently in an inter-glacial period? Personally, I prefer continuation of the warming trend to another ice age.

          • Timothy Horton

            Where to the Fundies find these scientifically illiterate morons? I know the actual scientific literature is way above your head so go read The Sixth Extinction by Elizabeth Kolbert detailing how ecosystems and the species they contain are being destroyed.

          • bill

            your message lacks credibility due to your style of communication. you sound angry and that discredits your message. I too am concerned about global warming. I too am accustomed to analyzing professional studies in my career. I cannot say with the same degree of certainty as you what is the cause of global warming or if indeed it is real in the sense that it is man made. I have seen however, when large(very large) sums of money are thrown into the political arena where accountability is nonexistent, the effort becomes corrupted, money wasted and goal not accomplished. I am all for saving the earth from mankind but money corrupts and these type solutions are not the answer.

          • Timothy Horton

            . I cannot say with the same degree of certainty as you what is the cause of global warming or if indeed it is real in the sense that it is man made.

            I can. I work in the environmental field and have been reading / studying / interacting with the science for decades. I’ve earned my right to be angry at the Koch brothers and the disingenuous BS on climate change they fund. Myself and other science professionals have to waste untold amounts of time and energy to combat the lies and propaganda they spread. Even here all I see are scientifically illiterate conservatives regurgitating what they’ve read on some anti-science propaganda site with zero understanding of why it’s BS. It does get frustrating.

        • Chris in NC

          That deal in Paris is not a treaty. Those have to be ratified by congress. It is at best just an excuse to force the US to send money to countries who are themselves doing nothing to help the environment. Our emissions have been going down for years and yet China, by this agreement, can continue to increase their own emissions until 2025.

          • Hannah

            From what I’ve read about the Accord – and what Marc Morano, founder of ClimateDepot(dot)com, says – Trump was right to pull out due to the fiscal disaster it presented. From Morano himself: “The UN has actually admitted the real reason for the treaty. They said this isn’t even about environmental policy anymore, we will redistribute wealth by climate policy. That’s what they want, a $100 billion a year slush fund going to governments that are best able to keep your people locked in poverty. This is all about social engineering, central planning, redistribution of wealth, and enpowering UN bureaucrats.” Also worth noting: back in February of this year, a former employee of the NOAA alleged that the scientists there were manipulating data to cover a “global warming pause” and promote a political agenda. According to the whistleblower Dr. Bates, NOAA National Centers for Environmental and Information Director Thomas Karl was “insisting on decisions and scientific choices that maximized warming and minimized documentation”; after the report had been presented, the HouseScience, Space, and Technology Committee launched a full panel investigation after the NOAA kept obstructing any who sought to validate or discredit the whistleblower’s claims. Chairman Lamar Smith stated after the investigation, “Dr. Bates’ revelations and NOAA’s obstruction certainly lend credence to what I’ve expected all along – that the Karl study used flawed data, was rushed to publication in an effort to support the president’s climate change agenda and ignored NOAA’s own standards for scientific study.”

            The jury’s still out but the very fact that the information presented for the Paris Climate Accord could be tainted or even inaccurate should give any true scientist pause. We’re talking about a multi billion dollar international agreement that is based on shady science and prominent political drive. It reeks of globalism, and I’m so glad that Trump decided to withdraw, if only for financial reasons.

          • Timothy Horton

            LOL! Marc Morano is a RW conservative shill with zero training in any scientific disciplines, let alone climate science. His web site ClimateDepot is pretty much pure fossil fuel company propaganda and outright BS. Getting your climate science information there is like getting info on the dangers of smoking from the Philip Morris tobacco company.

            Don’t any of you knobs ever read the actual primary scientific literature instead of your moronic RW trash science site?

          • Hannah

            Per the norm, you haven’t disputed my points but rather just insult my intelligence to make up for all things lacking. As for “actual primary scientific literature”, are you referring to the articles written by those with a political agenda and a lot of money to make off this accord? The entire deal is a global version of socialism with an environmental sticker slapped on the box, what with the bigger countries “helping” the smaller ones cut down on carbon emissions by giving them money. Any businessman would tell you it’s a scam for any first world country.

        • Billy Chickens

          President Trump has an IQ of 156. Yours?

          • Timothy Horton

            LOL! Did the guy who told you that offer to sell you a bridge too? 15.6 is closer to the truth given his compulsive lying. I sure the fat-headed Cheeto claims he’s 14″ long too.

          • Micha_Elyi

            Reduced to name-calling and made-up ‘facts’ you are.

          • Timothy Horton

            Like “Trump has an IQ of 156”? That was a hilarious porkie.

          • Roy_Munson

            Hahahahha – Trump makes George Bush look like a genius!

        • Do the research. There are plenty of climate scientists who know that blaming carbon for a “warmer earth” is a fraud. Carbon is called a greenhouse gas, cause the greenhouses use it to increase the productivity and health of the plants. Read about photosynthesis. In terms of toxic crapp, fight chemtrails, GMOs and mercury in vaccines, not your outbound breath. Really, do some research, you’ll see the fraud very quickly.

          • Timothy Horton

            I have done the research. Try reading the actual scientific literature instead of moronic RW propaganda sites. The fact atmospheric CO2 traps outgoing infrared radiation and warms the planet is high school level physics. It’s takes a really ignorant or really dishonest (or both) knob to deny the fact.

          • Micha_Elyi

            CO&sub2; is not the dominant greenhouse gas in the Earth’s atmosphere, water vapor is and it is far more effective at trapping infrared radiation than CO&sub2;. Don’t let your learning stop with high school-level physics.

            By the way, don’t assume the Sun does not vary in the amount of energy it radiates. Mars is warming yet no superstitious belief in Anthropogenic Global Warming can explain that.

            P.S. If you like what English speakers call ‘science’, thank a Catholic. Their medieval churchmen invented modern empirical science.

          • Timothy Horton

            LOL! Another scientifically illiterate moron chimes in. Religious fundamentalism and science really are like oil and water.

        • Jim Walker

          Now I know you don’t the smarts doing business deals.
          US doesn’t need such stupid agreement paying taxpayers’ billions of $ to help protect Mother Earth. These monies should be used within US to work towards that common goal.
          You don’t have to join a country club just to use the swimming pool. And this club wants you to pay hefty fees while all other members use the pool and all its facilities and you can’t.
          Obama Hillary Kerry have no fiscal prudence. And spend US money to buy favours in a I-scratch-your-back-you-scratch mine, what all globalists do for decades.

        • Ken

          If you seek tolerance , then look in a mirror while reading your post word for word and listen to the mind as it attempts to define tolerance.

        • PursueJustice

          So in your world what Griffin did is all right because you have a beef about Trump pulling out a of non-binding accord that will make no difference to anyone anywhere in the world?

        • m-nj

          i’ll keep reposting this as it is such juicy bits of information from the mouths of U.N. officials themselves regarding the real purpose of “climate policy” … wealth redistribution …

          [emphases added]

          At a news conference last week [in Feb 2015] in Brussels, Christiana Figueres, executive secretary of U.N.’s Framework Convention on Climate Change, ADMITTED THAT THE GOAL OF ENVIRONMENTAL ACTIVISTS IS NOT TO SAVE THE WORLD FROM ECOLOGICAL CALAMITY BUT TO DESTROY CAPITALISM.

          “This is the first time in the history of mankind that we are setting ourselves the task of intentionally, within a defined period of time, to change the economic development model that has been reigning for at least 150 years, since the Industrial Revolution,” she said.

          Referring to a new international treaty environmentalists hope will be adopted at the Paris climate change conference later this year, she added: “This is probably the most difficult task we have ever given ourselves, which is to intentionally transform the economic development model for the first time in human history.”

          another U.N. official, former United Nations climate official Ottmar Edenhofer [from early 2016] discussing the overarching ideology behind all of supposed “climate policy”, which would inherently include the Paris Accord:

          “One has to free oneself from the illusion that international climate policy is environmental policy. This has almost nothing to do with the environmental policy anymore, with problems such as deforestation or the ozone hole,” said Edenhofer, who co-chaired the U.N.’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change working group on Mitigation of Climate Change from 2008 to 2015.


        • Phil Steinacker

          Too late for you to read, I’m sure, but still I ask: you know all this how? I mean that Trump acted at the demand of the oil industry. You a mind-reader or what? Because there is no proof of this… just your own fevered imagination.

          As for “virtually every scientist”… well, that just shows how ill-informed you are.

          Climate change is now dead. Like zombies, you fools just haven’t realized it yet

  • Patmos

    Remove God from your knowledge and you will be given over to a reprobate mind.

    Light has come into the world, but some loved darkness more than light.

  • Charles Burge

    OK, I realize that this is picking a fight between Protestants and Catholics, but I really need to take issue with the statement “Jesus, Who eternally hangs on the Cross for our sins.” The Bible says quite the opposite. It says “But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God” (Hebrews 10:12). Also pertinent is that Jesus Himself said “It is finished” when He died on the cross. Meaning, it doesn’t continue perpetually until this day.

    As for the rest of the article, I do appreciate the point about cheap grace.

    • Zmirak

      From your perspective, it’s hard to see how our sins today (or any after 33 AD) can be said to have afflicted Jesus. Or how He died for them. This eternal perspective makes sense of that mystery, insofar as we can imagine eternal realities.

      • Charles Burge

        Thanks for the kind reply. Yes, it’s hard for human beings to imagine eternity. I think the answer lies in the fact that God is outside time. He perceives all events equally and simultaneously, regardless of whether those events lie in our own pasts or in our futures.

        • RebelwithaCause

          Thought: As God is outside of time, and Jesus is the incarnation of God, then surely all that happened to Jesus is experienced eternally through his Divine nature?

          • Charles Burge

            Thought experiments are interesting and worthwhile, but they always have to take a back seat to what the revealed Word of God clearly says. As Mr. Bruckner and I have pointed out, the Bible clearly says that the sacrifice on the cross is finished. I would also point out 1 Peter 3:18. “Christ died once for our sins. An innocent person died for those who are guilty. Christ did this to bring you to God, when his body was put to death and his spirit was made alive.” I’m not an expert in New Testament Greek, but as I understand it, the verb tense makes it clear that His death was an action that was completed in the past. Therefore, it does not continue.

            Where the Bible is not clear, we can have robust debate about what the exact meaning is. Where it is clear, there is no debate.

      • Patmos

        It’s really not that big of a mystery. Hebrews probably explains it best. Rather than having the ritual of sacrifice, Jesus became the eternal sacrifice, and he “ever liveth to make intercession for them (that come unto God by him).”

        The context of the Jewish people makes much of what Jesus taught and did more clear.

        • russ hook

          95% of ‘jews’ are not the Israelites from the Bible. THey are AshkeNAZI khazars with mostly mongolian/serpent DNA, NOT Hebrew. They adopted a satanic religion which demands sacrifice. They are the “Seed of Cain” or Satan’s Seed. Satan being a Reptilian Fallen ‘Angel’. The WHITE race is the Israelites. (12 Tribes)

  • missy

    God’s eternal grace forgives Kathy for her sins but in this life the bad decisions she made will still reap consequences

    • Billy Chickens

      But she’s not sorry.

    • Hmmm…

      Forgiveness comes when there is repentance. Repentance is to acknowledge one has sinned, to turn away from the sin and back to God, asking for restoration. When others are involved, the acknowledgement is before them as well. Forgiveness has come to be presumed automatic … or the deserved result of saying some calculated words. Oh, God is forgiving … period. No, there’s no period there yet. God forgives a repentant heart – now add the period. To be on automatic pilot with blanket forgiveness is sloppy agape and greasy grace. That pattern is a part of the sickness of our society.

  • ImaginaryDomain

    Hey John…thanks so much for this. I’ve been contemplating my return back to the CC, and you’ve given me a lot to consider here, and most importantly, a refreshing viewpoint to look at things anew. For some time now I’ve been angry at the Church for so many reasons, but perhaps I need to look at little harder and with a different mindset.

    Anyway, thanks. I hear the voice of Sister Margaret from the 3rd grade reminding me that sometimes God speaks through others…if you’re just patient and still enough to catch it.

    • Gary

      Don’t do it.

      • Sheryl Parsons

        Why would you say that? I’m not Catholic, but a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. If Imaginary Domain feels the desire to return to their faith, why discourage them?

    • Micha_Elyi

      You’re but one good sacrament of confession away from rejoining the fullness of Body of Christ. The Catholic Church is solidly intellectual in its theology and philosophy (this should be no surprise to the learned, the Church invented modern empirical science) and its origin is based on historical facts, not on myth as the detractors of Christianity often claim.

      “A little philosophy inclineth man’s mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth men’s minds about to religion.”–Francis Bacon

    • Vortex viewer

      I’m finishing up Zmirak’s book,”The politically incorrect guide to Catholicism” Outstanding and funny. Quick read. Might help out your discerning process.

  • Christian Cowboy

    I would not give her one more second of publicity!

  • Howard Rosenbaum

    This is a reply to the apparently not active posts of T. Horton. Well, if some “holier than thou religious conservative” pulls a “Kathy Griffin” on some over the top , self serving trolling ” conserveophobe ” the outrage from the left would be deserved. The political sensibilities & moral compass of those who unlike your antagonistic comments reference some measure of wit, wisdom & truthful consideration in their published articles on the Stream. Happily or otherwise, Mr Horton, if that is your real name, you would not be the victim of such a virulent attack. You have to have the courage to show your face first. For all we know, you may very well be Ms Griffins less articulate sister ….

  • Louise C

    I haven’t heard the critics refute any of the claims that the President presented in his speech but I have heard personal attacks, fear tactics and the typical name calling.

  • Howard Rosenbaum

    Right, true repentance is clearly a grace from God given to His sons & daughters in time of need. Apparently Ms Griffin has a very different take on this repentance thing. Like many in her idealogical camp, self delusion runs rampant & often. In Ms Griffins mind she has done nothing deserving of more than a questionable apology to her wavering politically expedient & economically supportive base. Not too very unlike those lunatics whose barbaric behavior she patronizes, both she & them share a common denominator. No, not severed heads, hers after all was only a mock effigy , gruesome as it was. Both she & the other ‘losers” whose attention getting repugnance she seems to mirror, are racing headlong into an abyss for which no apology, feigned or sincere can rescue them from – excepting of course the grace that God extends to them all even while the hand of faith by which that grace is received are full of excuses or worse …

  • Charles Burge

    Regarding the actual incident, I like what Kyle Smith over at National Review had to say about it. Kathy Griffin set out to be shocking and outrageous, and then whined about unfair treatment when the public reacted with shock and outrage.

  • Dean Bruckner

    John, you are going from strength to strength on these social commentary articles. Thanks!

    One exception: Catholic doctrine notwithstanding, Jesus doesn’t hang eternally on the cross for our sins; he completed his sacrifice and now sits at God’s right hand. Hebrews 10:11-18 states this with crystal clarity:

    “And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

    And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,

    “This is the covenant that I will make with them
    after those days, declares the Lord:
    I will put my laws on their hearts,
    and write them on their minds,”

    then he adds,

    “I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”

    Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.”

    If you are going to give a lesson on cheap grace, don’t make an undervaluing and mischaracterization of Jesus’ work of grace the cornerstone of your argument. If you do that, you can’t get the rest right.

    Best regards,


    • llew jones

      All that you say depends on the NT apostles not having successors who implicitly or directly deny that doctrine. The NT doctrine, you refer to, is the only scriptural basis on which guilty, hell bound sinners can be justified by God the Father and receive eternal life. One problem with that for Catholic teaching is that if, 2,000 years ago, Jesus made atonement for the sins of all those given to him by the Father before the creation of the world, as Jesus (the Lamb slain before the creation of the universe (in the Fathers plan)) implied, in John’s Gospel, and the apostles like Peter and Paul fleshed out, then one result of that is there is no scriptural rationale for the concept of the Catholic Priesthood.

      I think those of us who reject any church tradition that contradicts the scripture need to appreciate that The Stream is not really geared to that “distraction” but is essentially a conservative site dealing with secular society’s abandonment of natural law which includes those parts of the Decalogue which deal with loving one’s neighbour. With that proviso I personally read all of John’s contributions and gain much from them.

      • Micha_Elyi

        God exists eternally outside of time. Therefore all attempts to impose time on God fall short. At best, mentions of God in any context of time (e.g., before, after, now, a day is as a year, forever) are metaphorical only and for the benefit of us time-bound creatures on this side of the veil whose understanding of timeless eternity is necessarily limited and incomplete. This is even true regarding God the Second Person of the Trinity, the incarnate Jesus.

        • Zmirak

          I make no claims as a theologian. I’m just trying to present a mystery in a way that accounts for all key doctrinal truths. Maybe I got it wrong! Since we’re trying to express a four-dimensional (eternal) reality in three-dimensional terms, of course we will fall short. But since God dwells in eternity, in a perpetual state of NOW, there is some part of that NOW that includes the Passion. That’s what our sins tap into when we injure Christ with them. That’s all I meant to say.

          • Dean Bruckner

            Thanks, John! I appreciate very much your humble and gentle reply–a great example for us all.

            Not only don’t we understand the interface between time and eternity; we can’t understand it. Flatlanders and all that. Let’s stick to the Word who became flesh and lived for a while among us. Blessings!

          • Zmirak

            I agree! Flatland is precisely what I had in mind!

          • Vortex viewer

            Totally off topic, Could you please write a satirical play (on top of what I’m sure is your already busy schedule) based on your idea from the Politically Incorrect Guide to Catholicism on your Intel report from aliens who were sent to observe us and report about the absurdity of “scientific” and advanced nations doing the exactly unscientific thing regarding sexuality and procreation? It was hysterically brilliant!

        • Hmmm…

          In other words, you place the Catholic Church above the Bible and the Holy Spirit, whom the Bible states is its rightful interpreter. God is God. No Church will ever displace him.

          • Vortex viewer

            I do agree with one thing you said, no mere individual is a credible interpreter of sacred scripture.

          • Hmmm…

            I did not say that. The Holy Spirit indwells born again believers as they make the decision of him as their Lord and Savior. God has always chosen to work through people and is most able to do so with those who respond to his invitation to come in. The scriptures open up under the Holy Spirit’s awakening. I can testify to this personally and in the lives of many, many others of my knowledge. Born again believers, however, are not mere individuals, because “Christ in you, the hope of glory.” The scriptures are replete with accounts of the Holy Spirit working in and through men and women who yield to God. The Books of Acts is the Holy Spirit book in particular, and is the beginning of his workings with men, a work which continues to this day. The Holy Spirit definitely shines light on a believer’s time in the word, opening up its truths to him personally and in his formation of the truth of tenets and creeds.

        • Hmmm…

          The Church of the Lord Jesus Christ is made up of those individual believers past, present and future who have made Jesus Lord and Savior, causing the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Without the Holy Spirit, one is none of His. The Catholic Church claim of being the one true church is just that, their own claim, and does not comport with scripture, along with the vast majority of their man altered beliefs and claims. However, there are those in the Catholic Church who have made Jesus Lord. That is the church membership the scripture acknowledges.

        • russ hook

          Jewz subverted the cathoLICK church eons ago, and why it is totally corrupted and SATANIC. THE P00P lol shows all the sheep WHO he is, and WHO he serves, with the jew headgear he wears, and other satanic garb.

      • Vortex viewer

        Institution of the Eucharist is the reason for every priest up to the pope. This was the belief of all who called themselves Christian up to circa1520. The idea of sacrifice was infused in the Last Supper with Christ’s own words of performing the events in remembrance of Him. The whole Exodus drama is God telling Moses to have His people do this and that for the sacrifice and how and eating unleavened bread (seemingly repetitive for repetition sake)for all generations. But most importantly the Passover meal had to EATEN. Christ, the ultimate paschal Lamb, asked the same for us. That that we continue to do so. So, the Jews listening to Christ, knew this was ceremonial. Hence we Catholics have priests, an altar, and attend what is officially called the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

      • russ hook

        Religion, including ‘christianity’ is now a front for SATANISM. “Sacrifice” of any kind but esp human sacrifice cannot be any more satanic. New Age is the same BS invented by Satan’s Kids (jewz) to keep the goyim passive and NEUTERED. Now go MURDER an innocent animal, eat it and tell the rest of the FLESH-EATING ZOMBIES how wonderful you are.

    • Matthew N Renee

      Well said.

    • CharlestheHammer2

      I think it’s Both/And. Christ is at the right hand of God AND is on the Cross. As long as there are suffering victims on earth, Christ is still on that Cross with them, suffering with them and teaching them meaning and how to carry their Cross.

    • Phil Steinacker

      Although you may never read this because I am quite late in commenting, I think I may be able to bring an explanation to John Zmirak’s statement when he says, ” Jesus, Who eternally hangs on the Cross for our sins…”

      I’m sure you’d agree with the broad view held by most Christians that Jesus suffered and died for the redemption of all sins committed by all people over all time – before, during, and after His time on earth. If you don’t, then stop reading. I have no response to your position that you’d care to read.

      The Catholic faith is also agreed with most non-Catholic Christians that God is outside time. Of course, Jesus is also “true God and true man” so it follows that He was simultaneously in real time as well as a man Who actually suffered and died on the Cross. I hope we are agreed on that, or else we don’t agree that He is both God and man at the same time. It is a mystery, but true, nonetheless.

      Because God (including Jesus as the Second Person of the Trinity) is all-knowing, then I expect you’d share my belief that Jesus knew exactly each person for whom He suffered and died. I’m pretty sure you’ll agree with that, if for no other reason than I have so frequently encountered various Protestant statements that “Jesus died for my sins” and the insistence on “my personal relationship with Jesus.”

      So, then it is not a leap to say that as Jesus hung from His cross He was able to see those of us in the future not yet born in His day. Of course, He did, because He knows each of us by name and knows all our sins for which He gave up His Body. Because He actually knows our sin then He also knows our repentance – those who actually do repent in this life. It follows, then, that as He hung on the Cross Jesus was able to take consolation from those sinners not yet born who at some point in their lives, turn away from sin and to Him.

      Therefore, I submit that Jesus eternally hangs on the Cross for our sins in that what you or I do today is/was seen by Him at that time. This is a unique relationship of time and space, present and past, with a God simultaneously outside time, inside it as well, and because it is proactive precisely because we are living and changing, sinning and repenting, He, too, must be in a sort of interaction with us in His interior response.

      It is a traditional Catholic notion that Jesus’ suffering is not just corporal and in the past of linear time, but also continues in His Heart with great sadness and grieving over those who reject His sacrifice for us.

      Or do you reject the idea that a God Who can love and be angry can also grieve over our refusal to come home to Him? I think not.

      I hope this helps… someone.

      • Dean Bruckner

        Phil, thanks for your reply.

        You wrote, “Therefore, I submit that Jesus eternally hangs on the Cross for our sins in that what you or I do today is/was seen by Him at that time. This is a unique relationship of time and space, present and past, with a God simultaneously outside time, inside it as well, and because it is proactive precisely because we are living and changing, sinning and repenting, He, too, must be in a sort of interaction with us in His interior response.”

        I’m sorry, but substituting high-sounding ideas is explicitly rejected by the Apostles Peter and Paul, and the other writers of the New Testament.

        How can you square your doctrine with the simple and straightforward teaching of the book of Hebrews, chapters 6 and 9 (New International Version 2011):

        Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantor of a better covenant.

        Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

        Such a high priest truly meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.


        It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

        Whenever we encounter dissonance between scripture and our views, we need to repent for our unbelliev, and to believe and obey the word of God. Jesus does have an eternal and continuing activity: to intercede for us. It is not to die and keep dying for us.

  • porcupineman1454

    Congratulations – in one misguided article, you managed to compare one woman’s silly mistake (a woman only known for being a shock jock, by the way) to the Holocaust, to Christian victims of terrorism, to the Catholic abuse scandal AND to the “gay rights” fight. Now, I’m certainly no fan of Ms. Griffin or the ill-advised stupidity she’s been spewing all her life, but this article makes so many ridiculous reaches and comparisons that it blows Ms. Griffin’s sins out of the water. You ought to apologize to Holocaust survivors and victims of priests yourself for this dramatic nonsense. Honestly. Why does The Stream publish so many terrible articles along with the good?

  • Dena

    There is consequences for sin, even if you apologize. An apology won’t exempt you from punishment and mistrust, but time will if you were serious with your apology.

    • SophieA

      Nailed it! Wish other commenters understood this foundational truth.

  • Sarah Pierzchala

    The depth of Trump derangement syndrome, anti-Semitism and Christophobia is so strong with these folks that I doubt they see the victims of fake or actual beheadings as even fully human or anything other than props in a bizarre global theater of political posturing…hence the surprise at the outrage.

  • Elle-ements

    As John the Baptist told those coming to be baptised, “Bring forth fruit in keeping with repentance.” Repentance is not words, it’s a change of heart which produces a different fruit. The apostle Paul also acknowledges this in his defense to King Agrippa (Acts 26:20). There’s worldly sorrow and there’s godly sorrow. 2 Cor. 7:10 “For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow off the world produces death.”

  • texanfree

    Cheap grace, indeed. Jesus Christ called evil for what it is. He ran the money changers out of the temple. We need to run the evil out of our country.

    • BC

      Evil will always be in any country where mankind lives.

      • Doesn’t mean you tolerate it.

      • CharlestheHammer2

        Tolerance is not a suicide pact.

        • BC

          I guess it depends on what your tolerating

  • Ken

    As a Christian in my journey of faith, I believe in forgiveness and repentance. I pray that the gross display of disrespect and hate that Kathy Gifford displayed and the ensuing backlash that caused her to beg for mercy and more bookings, will lead her to a more respectful and tolerant soul, and that God might reveal himself through her to all of us as to the damages of any hate, bigotry or ridicule. I pray mercy for her as well as recommend using your money as stewards, and not to support financially the communities that spread hate, evil, lies, deception or ridicule.

    • In_the_OC


      • Ken


    • PalaceGuard

      I think, perhaps, that her cries of victimhood may be the denial-writhings of a soul that, at heart, knows it was wrong. There may be hope for her yet (as there is for us all).

  • A Raleigh

    Funny thing – Evangelicals (I am not) were/are so easy and quick to dismiss/forgive all Trump’s atrocities. You lost credibility then and there. Trump has never even feigned apology. Never regretted a thing. He just dances with Saudis in a sword dance. People who behead infidels and critics. Good Day!

    • BC

      What are all his atrocities? Just as I do not have need to forgive Kathy Griffin (she did nothing to me personally that I should offer it, or that she should ask it of me). President Trump has done nothing to me personally that I need to forgive, nor that he need seek MY forgiveness.

  • RampartWatcher67

    Repentance repented of, is evil deceit. The truly penitent accept the verdict against them even as they search for godly paths of redemption and/or reconciliation. If this shrew is allowed to become the Madame Lafarge of the Trump #Resistance movement, then our American culture is ripe for a brimstone wash-down.
    #STFU #shutthefadderalup

  • Lou Bradshaw Girard

    Nice job, Eric. We need to remember lessons learned at great cost. Those who forgive and are re-attacked by their abusers are very often slandered by the abuser for not “forgiving like a Christian.” To have someone who has bullied you (all of us, in Griffin’s case) come back and say we are hypocritical unbelievers for not “forgiving and forgetting” is just adding to the original abuse. I pray that those abused souls who are cowed by that rhetoric are scooped up in Jesus’ forgiving and protecting arms.

  • xsnake

    Hmmmm…all of a sudden, one of them didn’t get away with it…….refreshing.

  • Roy_Munson

    Refresh my memory – Why was Gibson’s apology so much better? Kathy was crying

    • James

      Deviations deviations
      You are deviating
      He never compared which was better
      So stop deviating

      • Roy_Munson

        He didn’t? It’s literally EXACTLY what he did!
        “Not as sorry as Mel Gibson seemed after his drunken, anti-Semitic rant a decade ago. But sorry enough for some.” and that wasn’t the only time
        Did you even the article?

  • Roy_Munson

    Ugh – Mel Gibson trashed an entire group of people. Kathy Griffin trashed ONE guy

    • James

      You mean she wished death on that person

  • Roy_Munson

    I’m guessing you conveniently forgot the multiple recordings of Mel Gibson SCREAMING like a maniac at the mother of his child, wishing rape upon her and using the N-word.
    What he said the night got his DUI is the tip of the iceberg

    • James

      Yes Mr perfect play his sins over and over again
      That way you can deceive yourself into believing that you are a much better person than he is…
      …kinda like the Pharisee

      • Roy_Munson

        Would never call myself perfect but all I need to do is listen to those takes for 5 minutes to tell I’m a better person than Mel Gibson

        • Vortex viewer

          Is Gibson therefore condemned forever? As the article points out, you would be willing to forgive Griffin’d vile acts more so than Gibson’s.

          • Roy_Munson

            I don’t know about forever but do I think what he did – screaming threats to the mother of his child, wishing she would be raped and casually using the N-word – is worse than holding up a clearly fake head for a picture?

        • James

          Hello Pharisee

          • Roy_Munson

            Who’s that?

  • Roy_Munson

    Christians are under attack by the LGBT community??? Hahahhaha – Pretty sure it’s the other way around LOL

    • Yvonne Interval Frith

      Yes Roy! I am the mother of an amazing gay son. To lump my wonderful, loving son in with ISIS, is unconscionable. Peaceful protest to this type of ignorance is so needed in our “christian” communities.

      • Yvonne Interval Frith

        Hey Roy! My post is not being posted. I hope you don’t mind if I piggy-back on your post. If not, I understand. Here is part of my unpublished comment on this thread:

        If the love of Christ is what you seek in this life, I would suggest that you know and have relationships with non-heterosexual folks.

        I can ask this of you and your blog followers because I used to be “you”.

        My back ground is Southern Baptist. I am now proudly a Progressive Christian, with an amazing gay son, and two hetero children. So, if by the “dreaded” gay agenda you mean…….

        *wanting to live your life as God made you, (marriage, children and love included)*

        *wanting to attend church as an LGBTQ Christian*

        *wanting to “fear not” in the very groups of people who should be representing Jesus in a fully inclusive environment*

        Then the above quotes are the real “agenda” you are fearing.

        • Yvonne I’m sure your son is wonderful, but the gay lifestyle isn’t. You should be praying for his protection.

        • James

          Fine my dear but no matter how you paint it you should realize that homosexuality is a sin
          This means your amazing gay son, if he keeps having sex with other men unrepentantly, he will go to hell
          And if you keep encouraging him to continue in this mortal sin, you would get also to hell, probably before him…

          • Might want to check out Matthew 25 before you are so quick to consign people to hell. Throughout his life Jesus spoke out against inequality, helped the oppressed, condemned the oppressor, and embraced the alienated…and he never talked about sexual orientation. How many Bible verses are there about helping the oppressed? Feeding the hungry? Hundreds … what do you think truly matters to God?

          • Vortex viewer

            Answer to your last question: Doing His will. Meaning not mine nor yours but HIS. Whether you like it or not. Our desire really isn’t important if you LOVE God, you will WANT to do His will.
            (Sorry for the caps, can’t italicize)
            His will? That we love Him above all else and we love each other as ourselves.

          • James

            You die in mortal sin, you condemn yourself to hell
            You can use all the nice sounding words you like but it will not change the truth
            Mine is to inform not to convince

          • James

            And by the way Sodomy is one of 4 sins that cry out to God for vengeance
            He who has ears let them hear

          • And what are the others? I trust you are equally vigilant about not oppressing the poor or defrauding workers of their wages? I trust you are buying fairly traded goods and working tirelessly to advocate for the poor?

          • CharlestheHammer2

            Jesus talked about hell more often than he talked about heaven. Here are some verses.

            The children of the kingdom will be driven out into the darkness where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth (Mt 8:12).
            Depart from me, you accursed, into that eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels (Mt 25:41).
            These will pay the penalty of eternal ruin, separated from the
            presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power (2 Thes 1:9).
            God did not spare the angels who fell into sin; he thrust them down
            to hell, chained them there in the abyss, to await their sentence in
            torment (2 Pt 2:4).
            The smoke of the fire that torments them will rise forever and ever,
            and there will be no relief day or night for those who worship the
            beast or its image or accept the mark of its name (Rv 14:11).

        • AcceptingReality

          It’s too bad that your children are described respective of their sexual preferences. Don’t they have other human characteristics that are more outstanding than that? I also find the suggestion that Christ’s love is like gay love pretty offensive. Christ’s love has nothing to do with sexuality. And it is fare beyond the capacity of human understanding.

    • AcceptingReality

      You know something? You’re not in touch with reality.

      • Roy_Munson

        I most certainly am. Please tell me how I’m wrong.

      • Roy_Munson

        I guess you can’t tell me who I’m wrong…

  • Roy_Munson

    Were any of you good christians this upset when Ted (google him and 14-year-old girls) Nugent made threats against Obama and Hillary? I doubt it.
    And what was his punishment? He got invited to the White House by our current president

    • Chris C.

      If you are referring to Nugent’s comments that Obama should “suck on my machine gun” and that HRC should be tried and hung for treason I don’t approve of such comments but they are not comparable to the actions of Ms. Griffin. The Obama comment was vulgar but doesn’t constitute a threat. He never threatened to pull the trigger. As for HRC it was commentary after the revelations about her conduct during the Benghazi episode. It wasn’t treason in my view, others believe it to be so considering that four Americans died and their deaths were preventable and the reasons for their deaths were the subject of lies by both Obama and Clinton. In any event I don’t look to Ted Nugent as one to be admired or emulated. I don’t think most “good Christians” do but I don’t speak for them.

    • AcceptingReality

      Griffin’s act was abhorrent because it mocked the very real victims of Isis be-headings. The families of victims like Daniel Pearl were disrespected unbelievably. So not the same as Ted Nugent’s remarks. And besides, Hillary should have been tried for treason. The punishment for which is execution.

      • Roy_Munson

        REAL stretch to say she was mocking Daniel Pearl and others. In that case, I could say Nugent “mocked the very real victim of gun violence” (which, come to think of it, I think he has none on occasion but that’s another debate)
        Also, in addition calling for her to be hanged, the night he said Obama should “svck” on his gun, he said Hillary should “ride on it.”

        • AcceptingReality

          Like I said in response to another of your comments. You are not in touch with reality. Your willful refusal to make distinctions is not less than endearing. Good bye.

          • Roy_Munson

            One of us believes a book that says a man was swallowed by a whale a lived to tell about it, a women who never had sex became pregnant and had a baby, a senior citizen built an ark and managed to get 2 of every animal on board, people got turned to stone, people lived for hundreds of years, etc.

            The other one IS in touch with reality. Goodbye

          • AcceptingReality

            Same book says, “The way of a fool seems right in his own eyes…” Bye again!

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            As if ANY of those things would be the least bit difficult for Almighty God! LOL

            Next you’ll be telling us how easy it was for Man to evolve from the slime of the ocean. LOL Even famous atheists are now admitting that all evidence points to a Divine Creator.

            No need to reply. I won’t be wasting my breath or casting pearls before those who reject the obvious.

  • Joe Kennedy

    I am willing as so well written, willing to leave this bitter and disturbed woman to God for He alone as well said can read the heart. One thing for sure her playing the victim is distgusting. I am thankful CNN said, “To much” and meant it. Also those who canceled her appointments. They read her right.

  • Mabel Jacome

    This is by far, the best article I’ve read this year! I’ve never been able to understand how “easy” it could be for some people to “forgive” in the Name of Christ. Even when the perpetrator(s) of the horrific crime(s) against them have not repented. As far as God has revealed TO ME, through His Word (The Bible); He forgives ONLY REPENTED sinners! But ever AFTER He forgives them, it does not mean, He removes His Divine justice; or prevents man’s justice to be carried out.

    • PalaceGuard

      Just for the record, on the cross itself our Lord prayed his Father for the forgiveness of some phenomenally unrepentant sinners.

      • Yes, but I was qualified with ‘they know not what they do’. These were Romans, untaught in Judaism so really were ignorant.

        • PalaceGuard

          It wasn’t only the Romans.

          • And how do you know that?

          • PalaceGuard

            I read the book.

          • Chris C.

            I agree that the forgiveness of Christ was extended to all of his killers, not just his Roman executioners, but I know that because it’s what the Catholic Church, informed by the opinions of the Church Fathers, teaches. A reading of the gospel accounts does not, on its face, compel the interpretation that you put forth and which I support and agree with but only for the reasons I stated.

          • So do I, and it was the Romans that were hammering in the nails when He said it.

          • PalaceGuard

            Read your Catechism.

          • If it wa in the catechism why weren’t you quoting it.

          • PalaceGuard

            Now you’re just being argumentative for no good reason. Adieu.

          • Ok, so it’s not actually related to the catechism then. Thanks for clarifying.

      • 441019

        Jesus asked His Father to forgive them–but that does not mean they were automatically forgiven. According to “The Poem of the Man-God,” by Maria Valtorta (which was based on visions she had), there were three earthquakes and tornadoes right after Christ died. There were people, among those who were mocking Jesus as he hung on the cross, who fell into fissures in the earth. There was also lightning, and some were struck by lightning.

    • davidk

      And you, therefore, believe in salvation by works and not by faith?

      • AcceptingReality

        Sounds like you believe in salvation by faith alone?

        • davidk

          Yes. sola fide

          • AcceptingReality

            And Sola Scriptura probably, too?

          • davidk

            Of course. The inerrant, infallible Word of God.

          • davidk

            And I mean that in the classical sense not in the somewhat recent watered-down neo-liberal (my term) sense.

          • davidk

            Maybe to save some time (?): Sola Scriptura; Sola Gratia; Sola Fide; Solus Christus; Soli Deo Gloria.

          • AcceptingReality

            So, where in the Bible does it say Scripture alone? Surely it’s not John 21:25, right?

          • davidk

            Believing that the Bible is the Word of God is a presupposition; one that I hold with, I believe, ample warrant. The individual books were obviously written down.

            Regarding the biographical material in the Bible related to Jesus, much was written by eyewitness/firsthand authors. The most notable exception is Luke’s accounts, and probably some (most?) of Mark’s report.

            I’m not aware of body of credible oral witness to Jesus’ life outside of the Bible.

            I’m not sure of your point–unless you are into Gnosticism.

          • AcceptingReality

            My understanding is that Sola Scriptura is the belief that Scripture alone is the source for doctrine and practice. It holds that Scripture alone is sufficient; all that is necessary. But Scripture itself doesn’t say that. That doesn’t make sense to me. If Scripture was sufficient then what did Christians do prior to the year 389 A.D. Because 389 was the year the canon of Scripture was decided upon. Sola Scriptura doesn’t become a thing until the 1500’s. So, it can’t be true.

            No sir, I am not into Gnosticism. I am into Catholicism. You know, that Church Jesus founded. The Church that wrote the Bible and decided which books belong in the canon of Scripture.

          • davidk

            Jesus founded catholicism. The shifting opinions of Roman Catholicism do
            not define Christianity. To declare otherwise only reveals the hubris of fallen man.

            I had you pegged as a Catholic from the get-go. Salvation is soley by faith, not by works. You can do nothing to effect your salvation; otherwise, Christ died in vain.

          • AcceptingReality

            Ha, ha, talk about the pot calling the kettle black…..the Church’s shifting opinions? You wanna talk about shifting opinions? Since Luther invented Sola Fidei and Sola Scriptura, we have seen 40,000+ protestant denominations appear on the horizon. There are so many because of all the varying opinions about what scripture says. Sola Scriptura, or private interpretation, is nothing but each bible christian’s personal opinion.

            Scripture says, “Faith without works is dead.” For 1500 years all of Christendom was Catholic. It’s hard to miss the fact that Jesus founded an Institution when you read scripture. And the Church always taught that we are saved by grace, through faith and good works. That’s why it was written that way in James letter. The Church’s doctrines and dogma haven’t changed for 2000+ years.

          • davidk

            Plucking five words out of an extremely difficult and complex book is indeed poor exegesis. Too many, Protestant and Roman Catholic alike, have not understood the depth of James’ treatise.

            Assuming that when you say “Church” you narrowly mean Roman Catholicism:

            ” And the Church always taught that we are saved by grace, through faith and good works.” Then the “Church” has always taught heresy.

            “The Church’s doctrines and dogma haven’t changed for 2000+ years.” I cannot imagine someone would make such an absurd claim.

          • AcceptingReality

            By “Church”, capital “C”, I mean the Roman Catholic Church. Which existed before the Bible, which you claim is the sole source of doctrine and practice. The fact that the Canon of Scripture was decided upon by a council of Catholic Bishops in 389 a.d. is a widely accepted and historical fact. So, you are beholding to Her for the scriptures you hold dear. So, I did not pluck five words out of scripture. The Church taught that before James wrote it.

            Furthermore, the Catholic Church, herself, says that her doctrines and dogmas haven’t changed in 2000 years. Thousands upon thousands of Popes, Cardinals, Bishops and Saints have held that to be true. Not only that, the Catholic Church is not capable of officially teaching heresy as truth. She is prevented by the Holy Spirit from doing that…..which is also in the Bible.

            Your way, Sola Scriptura is devoid of all authority and sound teaching. With it, each individual is his own authority and prone to misinterpretation. Thus, 40,000 + different organized churches.

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            I hope you don’t mind, and will pardon me if you do, that I jump in here for one brief comment. Your understanding of Sola Scriptura is correct. That is true. Your understanding that Scripture doesn’t say that is false. Scripture does in fact say that.

            2nd Tim. 3:16. Look at the first word. Should be self-explanatory. Secondly, your supposition that Scripture was not decided upon until 389 AD if also false. Jesus said so Himself. “Have you not read?” So to deny Sola Scriptura is to call God, and specifically the Person of Jesus Christ, a Liar.

            Lastly, the “Church” that Jesus founded is NOT the RCC and the RCC did NOT write the Bible. Again, I’d refer you back to 2nd Tim. 3:16 and this time for a clear understanding of where the Bible came from I’d recommend you study the words “given by inspiration of God” or “God-breathed”.

          • AcceptingReality

            Royce, thanks for jumping in. That’s great…..so, your proof text here doesn’t say what you are using it to prove. It simply says that all Scripture is useful….etc. It doesn’t say anything about Scripture being the sole source of doctrine and practice.

            And let me caution you about taking Jesus’ words out of context. How could Jesus have said that the canon of Scripture was complete when the New Testament wasn’t written yet. Check history, the Canon of Scripture was decided at the council of Hippo in 389 a.d. Did you know that prior to that time there were upwards of 95 versions of the Gospel of John. The Church sorted that all out. That is an easily verifiable fact.

            Also, did you know that, when Jesus quoted Scripture he always quoted from the version of the Jewish Scriptures called the Septuagint. That’s significant because it proves Jesus read and knew the Septuagint. The Septuagint includes the 7 Apocryphal Books which are missing from your Bible. That’s right, protestant bibles are missing 7 books. That’s because Luther threw them out right about the same time he invented Sola Scriptura….another easily verifiable fact.

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            Thank you for the grace in allowing me to do so. I would emphatically disagree with your supposition. This is the same argument the Liberals use to try and support Homosexuality and SSM saying that Jesus never said anything in Matt. 19 about either. It’s a false assumption. The word “All” defines it all and it is further qualified by the remainder of the verse.

            When one combines the word “all” with the qualifier that it is “profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, so that the man of God may be perfected, being fully furnished for every good work” one simply can NOT get around the fact that it is sufficient for “doctrine” (as well as the others) SO THAT one may be “perfected” and FULLY furnished for EVERY good work.

            So NO, it doesn’t just say Scripture is “useful”. MUCH MORE than that.

            I didn’t say that Jesus said Scripture was complete. I refuted your statement “If Scripture was sufficient then what did Christians do prior to the year 389 A.D. Because 389 was the year the canon of Scripture was decided upon. Sola Scriptura doesn’t become a thing until the 1500’s. ”

            Jesus repeatedly referred to the Scriptures as Authority. 2nd Tim. 3:16 is true. And what “Scripture” do you think is being referred to there?? Jesus never belittled, undermined, dismissed, or made light of Scripture in any way whatsoever. He never downplayed the significance of Scripture for His own personal guidance. Nor did He ever doubt the authority of God’s Word in any way. He never questioned the veracity of the Old Testament stories or remotely insinuated in any way whatsoever that they were anything but true. Quite to the contrary and just the opposite. Jesus held the Bible in the highest regard. 80x in the Gospels Jesus quotes from more than 70 chapters from 24 different Old Testament books. When the Pharisees would challenge Christ or try to trick Him, what was His response? “Have you not read…”

            So what’s the point? Just this, when you hear someone say that Jesus never addressed this or that, remind them of just that. That and that Jesus is God. The Book of John starts out with “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” In John 10:30 Jesus says, “I and the Father are one.” So if the Father said something, so did Jesus and so does the Holy Spirit. There is NEVER any contradiction between them. How serious does Jesus make obedience to the Word of God? Matt. 5:17-19 gives us a pretty good idea: “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” So there is NO contradiction or conflict between the OT & NT.

            One would do well to recall and remember that God chose to write His commandments in stone and that the last Book of God’s Word starts with Christ ordering John to “write down” the things he was about to receive. And John was to send those things to the 7 churches. NOT just tell them what he had heard.

            The bottom line is that if you do not submit to the authority of God’s Word – The Bible – then you are your own god to hear what you wanna hear and do what you wanna do because you have nothing to filter it thru but your own authority.

            “Also, did you know that, when Jesus quoted Scripture he always quoted from the version of the Jewish Scriptures called the Septuagint.”

            No, I didn’t know that because it’s not true. This subject is something that many others have written on extensively and I’m not gonna try to here. Suffice it to say that Jesus’ quotations and references to scripture agree with the proto-Masoretic text, the LXX, and even the Targums and that we have NO proof/evidence to make any kind of definitive claim such as you did. My own personal opinion is that when Jesus read from the Scriptures in the Temple, because of the hatred that Jews had for Gentiles at the time, it’s pretty unlikely they would have had scrolls written in Greek in the Temple.

            You do bring up an interesting thought though with your “The Septuagint includes the 7 Apocryphal Books which are missing from your Bible. That’s right, protestant bibles are missing 7 books.” And that is the thought that, once again, there is evidence of a very clear and distinct line between Catholics and Protestants. If one takes 2nd Tim. 3:16 literally as I do, and holds to Sola Scriptura as I do, or don’t as you do, then it raises the question as to which is in obedience to God. Both can’t be. Either one is using the whole counsel of God or one isn’t. Either one is adding to God’s Word or one is taking away from it.

            I am quite comfortable that God has preserved His Word as intended in the Bibles we have today thru the canonization process and that the Apocryphal Books do not belong in Scripture and are not God-breathed. Since you do not believe in Sola Scriptura then it really doesn’t matter. And in that I think is a significant message itself as to which is correct and true.

            While Jesus’ warning in Rev. 22:18-19 was specifically to the Book of Revelation, I submit that grave warning should be seriously considered whenever anyone chooses to put words in God’s mouth or shut His mouth by taking them away.

          • AcceptingReality

            God bless you Royce. Thank you for the time and effort you spent here. The only thing I am going to contend against is that Jesus used Scripture for his own guidance. Don’t think so….I think as the Second Person of The Blessed Trinity, he didn’t need guidance. Oh, yeah, Jesus founded an institutional Church. Scripture and history attest to that. If it’s not the RCC then which is it?

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            God bless you too AR. I’d encourage you to study 3 passages. First, Phi. 2:7 and what does that mean, then Luke 2:46-62 (and I would submit that Verse 46 must be taken in context with Verse 52), and then finally Heb. 5:8. I’d also suggest a study entitled “Walking As Jesus Walked”. You may find it edifying as well. Lots of things are rushing into my mind right now but I won’t belabor the point except to say – of course Jesus needed guidance. Why do you think He went off to pray so much? Jesus is our example, and a perfect one at that, of our walking in total dependence upon the Holy Spirit.

            Jesus founded the Invisible Church. The Church Universal that is the Bride of Christ made of The Body of Believers. No, Scripture or History attest to anything other than that and, in fact, Scripture and History both tell us that there were many “institutional churches” such as the church in Rome, Ephesus, Philippi, Corinth, etc.

            AND, perhaps most significantly when Jesus spoke His last words to us it was NOT to any Pope in Roman but rather the pastors of seven churches. Each of those pastors having headship over those individual churches. That just came to me and that right there completely destroys the whole idea of there being One Church (the RCC or any other) and One Head (the Pope or any other).

            So your final question is based on a false assumption to begin with. God bless…

          • AcceptingReality

            Jesus last words were absolutely spoken to a Pope. His name is Peter, the first Bishop of Rome. Please don’t tell me you’re gonna deny that Peter was in Rome, too!!! “Thou art rock and upon this rock I will build my Church.”

            Here’s the difference between Catholics and Protestants. You get your church from scripture. I get scripture from my Church.

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            Nope. Wouldn’t begin to deny that Peter was in Rome but you better get a real Bible because Jesus’ last word were to John and he recorded what Jesus said to the pastors of Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamon, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea. NOT the Pope and the RCC.

            As to your last observation, I couldn’t agree with you more. And THAT is EXACTLY the crux of the problem. I get my ekklesia from the theopneustos graphē. I get my “church” from God’s Word. You admittedly get your graphē from the ekklesia and theopneustos is missing.

            I hope you’ll ponder that for awhile.

          • AcceptingReality

            When you said Jesus’ last words I misunderstood. You were apparently speaking of his last words on the cross? Spoken to John. I was speaking of the Ascension. Jesus was speaking to the Apostles when he ascended. Peter was there. Lest you also misunderstand. I get my Church from the Word of God too. Jesus is the Word of God Incarnate and he founded the Church. The New Testament writers were members of that Church.

            Here’s the real crux of the matter: Jesus said, John 6:53, “If you do not eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood you shall have no life within you.” You can only get the Body and Blood of Christ from His Holy Catholic Church. No other has that.

            This has been enjoyable. Thanks for your passion. I’ll give you the last word.

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            No AR, I’m speaking of Revelation 2 & 3. Ergo the reference to the Pastors of the Seven Churches.

            So, only Catholics can be saved. Got it. I do appreciate your forthrightness and honesty. You’re dead wrong on your reading of that and while it would, again, take WAY too much time, effort, and space to unravel all that, I can utterly destroy your supposition, poor exegesis, and faulty theology with one simple but grand example.

            The thief on the cross did neither.

            Yes, it has been and I commend you likewise and for being able to discuss this in such a Biblical manner. God bless…

          • CharlestheHammer2

            Uh…Peter and the Keys to the Kingdom Dude?

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            Uh Dude, so? What’s your point? What’s that got anything to do with the topic at hand, Dude?

          • ImAHeterotroph

            We don’t say heterosexuality a lot like straights say our sexuality a lot. I am about to offend your baby word right now! Heterosexualityheterosexualityheterosexualityheterosexualityheterosexualityheterosexualiyheterosexualityheterosexualityheterosexualityheterosexualityheterosexualityheterosexualityheterosexualityheterosexualityheterosexualityheterosexualityheterosexualityheterosexualityheterosexualityheterosexualityheterosexualityheterosexualityheterosexualityheterosexualityheterosexualityheterosexualityheterosexualityheterosexualityheterosexualityheterosexuality

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            Trolling me now? What does that have to do with this article or my comments? NOTHING! Like I told you on the other article – Man, you are one messed up Dude!! I hope you get the help you need.

            Now, you’re Lake of Fire awaits you…

          • ImAHeterotroph

            How am I messed up?

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            What am I, your Shrink? I don’t think so. Send me a couple hundred bucks and I’ll think about it though. That aside, for one thing you a nutjob AND a spiritually-dead son of disobedience and child of wrath. And that’s just for starters.

          • ImAHeterotroph

            That’s you lol.

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            Yuck it up laughingboy. Your laughing will come to an abrupt end and will only be a memory to haunt you for all Eternity.

            “They mock and wickedly speak of oppression; They speak from on high.” (Psa 73:8)

            “They pour forth words, they speak arrogantly; All who do wickedness vaunt themselves.” (Psa 94:4)

            “knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires.” (2Pe 3:3)

            “You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. (John 8:44)

            A fool does not delight in understanding, But only in revealing his own mind. (Prov. 18:2)

            “Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.” (Prov. 23:9)

            Ya gotta love it when folks put on a public display of their pure evil wickedness.

            And they’re so stupid as to think it is actually pointed toward another when in fact it is a reflection of themselves.

            I have little doubt that these very things will be before their eyes and ring in their ears so as to NEVER be forgot for ALL Eternity.  

            Like a dog that returns to its vomit is a fool who repeats his folly. (Prov. 26:11)

            Do you see a man wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him. (Prov. 26:12)

            Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall. (Pro 16:18)

          • ImAHeterotroph

            Satan isn’t my father. I believe in God and follow gods ways I follow nothing else.

          • Royce E. Van Blaricome

            “I’m not messed up you are. Also God didn’t just create heterosexuality God created me and I love men and it’s not bad. Also there are THREE orientations not just heterosexuality”

            And you are dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you walk according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them you live in the lusts of your flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and are by nature children of wrath (Eph. 2:1-3)

            “You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. (John 8:44)
            “But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and sexually immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” (Rev. 21:8)

          • russ hook

            DK, jou said, “BeLIEving that the Bible is the Word of God is a presupposition.” THAT is where most sheeple go WRONG! It is also a LUDICROUS statement. ‘Man’ obviously wrote the Bible, and who knows how many times it has been edited by Satan’s Seed??? Look at the part where Jesus supposedly kills God’s fish and eats them. That is ridiculous, IT MAKE NO SENSE. JC HAD to be VEGETARIAN. The best reason for that is “Thou shalt not kill.” but there are many others. The Bible has too many contraDICKtions in it. A 5 yr old can see that.

    • Roy_Munson

      You must not read a lot

      • russ hook

        JOU got edJEWcation? The khazars CONtrol ALL of it so ‘reading’ does more harm than good. One needs to be very selective in what one reads.ASK Creator for guidance and he will give it. CONNECT to the Holy Spirit. 99.9% literature is BS that leads to the same outcome. OUR SLAVERY.

        • Roy_Munson

          Um …what?

          • URNuts


    • russ hook

      EXACTLY! Jews have subverted the Christian religion to NEUTER the gullible goyim. THey also invented ‘New Age’ for the same reason. BOTH are MIND CONtrols. I was a member of the SDA Church for a short time. Jews CONtrol it 100%. Ellen White, the ‘founder’ was NOT white, but looks mullato or jewish. Jews adopted ‘color’ surnames (White, Black, Brown, etc) to hide their jewishness. They are very cunning. (like snakes)

  • Margaret

    I only ever see Griffin’s disturbing meme because the people who claim it was inappropriate keep posting pictures of it in order to say how horrible it was for her to post it in the first place. Irony at its height. I personally found her meme to be distasteful and no more appropriate than I found the memes depicting President Obama burning while hanging from a noose to be. Sadly, the perpetrators of these kinds of images aren’t thinking about children, families, productive discussions, or finding solutions to problems when they post such images. At best they are trying to be provocative. Most of the time, however, they are just angry and hateful. Your outrage, any more than mine, is not going to bring these kinds of posts to an end; supposedly we will need to get to heaven for that to happen. But let’s move on to the actual topic of your article, shall we?! Of course, I will probably get into trouble for making this assertion since you “only” made a comparison, but it seems to me what you really want to do is find a way to blast the LGBT communities and are doing your best to achieve this goal by calling their legitimate struggles for equal rights under US law whining and comparing them to Griffin and ISIS.
    Perhaps, the language about repentance and sin with regard to LGBT individuals has been “dropped” because Christians, like myself, have actually studied Scripture and find NO evidence to support the religious right’s claim that being a lesbian, bi-sexual, gay, or transgender person is sinful. NONE. Scripture describes very specific behavior as sinful. Prostitution, for example, is called sinful, as is adultery. But the fact that these acts can be committed by heterosexual men and women does not make being heterosexual sinful. Furthermore, the words homosexual and homosexuality were not even part of scripture prior to 1946. We have superimposed our social prejudices over the top of scripture and constructed arguments to back up our bias. Not long ago being left handed was just as “sinful” as being gay and the “proof” just as convoluted.
    You are correct about one thing–we don’t get to judge the sincerity of one’s repentance; only God can do that. We are called to forgive those who sin against us which should not be confused with those who we deem sinners. If we are individually harmed by someone else’s sin, we are called to forgive. Sometimes that will mean the “sinner” suffers no consequences but that isn’t why we are called to forgive. We are called to forgive so that we can drop the stones of offense we have picked up and move on. Our forgiveness of others sets US free, not the other. The other must forgive him or herself. That’s how forgiveness works.

  • Jennifer

    The clarity in this writing is precious. “I have seen these activists pull this off again and again in Catholic circles.” Anyone care to elaborate specifics? Thank you Mr. Zmirak!!!

  • GodnCountry

    I think this was a wonderful article. Well written. You have, of course, some trolls here. They would say the same thing they’re saying here on a thousand other articles. Instead of thoughtfully reading, they dismiss you based on their repetitious brainwashed ideology. I appreciate your thoughts. Forgive them, they can’t think on their own.


    Who cares what she says!
    It means nothing.!
    Her God and life is about money.
    Her best punishment now is her losing lots and lots of money and the ruination of her career, if that’s what she calls it.
    Although she could get a job doing dog food commercials.

  • bbb

    I must agree with Byzantine Catholic.
    Griffin is a prime example of an organized international media [there are six major cartels that own all the main media sites around the world] that are daily attacking America’s sensibilities.
    Melania Trump immediately recognized the real motive is to make beheading a “normalized” practice to vindicate oneself.
    The recent Masaad report that directly connected at least four recent cartel media organizations’ news stories to American mainstream media news that lasted at least ten days tells us that we are actually being propagandized heavily every time the TV set goes on to a mainstream station.
    It has been rumored Griffin was indeed paid quite a large sum of money by middle-eastern contacts if she would do this and get a week’s worth of coverage.
    She does not ever have to work again. But we are buying into the propaganda to pay this one bit of attention.

  • Royce E. Van Blaricome

    Overall a pretty good article. I’d just add one thing and questions another. First, I’d like to have seen the “blame the victim in the apology” brought out a bit more. That is disgusting and pathetic and should be denounced every time it surfaces.

    Secondly, I’d have to question the author’s comment about Jesus eternally hanging on the cross. Hopefully he was trying to say something there other than convey his actual theology. Jesus is NOT on the Cross. Having said, “It is FINISHED!!”; He was then taken down, buried, resurrected, and now sits at the Right Hand of the Father as our hope for eternal life.

    The ramifications of Jesus NOT being on the Cross still carries some theological problems with a few other things the author said but this isn’t really the forum to get into that discussion. So suffice it to say that Jesus makes it clear in the Gospels that when a debt is forgiven it is forgiven.

  • azsxdcfv12

    It’s “funny” how true colors are shown by words – sometimes when we least expect it. I am referring to Jerry Seinfeld’s defense of Kathy G’s most despicable act. I used to respect Seinfeld. No more.

    • russ hook

      I find it unbelievable that JOU can be that ST000PIFIED.

  • Laura Ann Register

    First off, I forgive her. That is the first step to take as a Christian and I know that President Trump and his family has forgiven her as well, the second thing, she is going to have to stand in front of Jesus on Judgment Day and answer for her actions. She may think that she has gotten away with it now, but she really hasn’t. The only true way for her to really think she can get away with all of this is to truely and sincerely repent and ask God for forgiveness and to sincerely apologize to President Trump and his family and to all of us that did not think that for one minuet that it was funny, and to those people who are now putting on plays in New York about President Trump and First Lady Melana as Cesar and the assacination of them? I truely will pray for them all, they are being used as puppets by the devil and his demonic forces and don’t even know it. I’m sure that i will get a rude comment or two about all of this, bu that’s alright. I won’t get offended, I forgive you all. And the one thing that I will continue to do is to pray about all of this and keep on forgiving!

    • Tim Pan

      Why should we forgive a woman who has not asked to be forgiven?

  • russ hook

    Griffin (apt name) is a SATANIST, and Mel Gibson was 100% right about the SATANIC JEWZ!

    • Tim Pan

      Is Griffin Jewish?

  • MBAchin

    I have never seen any televised broadcast which included Kathy Griffin, and I’m not a young man. I never paid attention to her or mention of her. I saw the appalling photograph of her holding the facsimile of the president’s head and knew I was right to have ignored her all these years. Should we all great her with indifference, she disappears. Her survival depends on our attention.

    I have no need to forgive her because she has not wronged me. I’m not in to group transgressions or identities. I do agree that she owes an apology to President Trump and his family and should seek their forgiveness with contrition. One thing I’ve not read about: the photographer who staged the whole sordid affair. He is not without blame.

    I don’t care what she does because she’s a coarse, vulgar, mindless ape, doing what coarse, vulgar, mindless apes do for coarse, mindless, vulgar apes. It’s her schtick and she plays to her audience. I’m confident her fans are more pleased with her retraction of her apology, than they were with her apology.

  • philnmdg

    To say “Sorry” from the lips and not from a penitent heat is meaningless. The Lord said to forgive your brother “Seventy times Seven” but he was referring to those who are really trying to stop their words or actions, not those who discreetly look up at your face to see if you are buying their act or not.

  • UnyieldingFollower davidk

    Sola Fide.

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