Gracefully Handling Conflict in Relationships, Part 2

Conflict is natural whenever any two people try to get along. No one wants it, but running from it can lead to all sorts of negative consequences. In this 15-minute episode, author Joël Malm and his father, Rick, discuss how you can handle conflicts with grace by nailing down the issue, properly expressing emotions, and recognizing one another’s motivations.

This is Part 2 of their conversation. Watch the first part here.

Editor’s Note: The transcript that follows was automatically generated and lightly edited, so please be aware there could be typos or other small errors. The Stream is working toward a transcription service that does fast, accurate, and reliable work; thank you in advance for your patience!

00:00:07:15 – 00:00:11:08
Hey, welcome back to the Malm podcast. I’m Joel here with dad.

00:00:11:11 – 00:00:15:18
And I’m the dad of this Joel and dad podcast. Yes. So.

00:00:15:19 – 00:00:17:06
Rick Malm. Yeah.

00:00:17:09 – 00:00:18:11
So, what we going to talk about today?

00:00:18:18 – 00:00:28:09
Well, when we last episode, we were talking about conflict and relationships, and we’re 15 minutes in. I’m like, oh, my gosh, we haven’t even, like, touched the surface here. So I think this is part two.

00:00:28:09 – 00:00:28:29
Part two of.

00:00:28:29 – 00:00:39:10
Dealing with conflict in relationships. Okay. I actually forgot to turn off the mic at the end and I was like, we didn’t really get to much in this. In the close, the outro of the last I guess episode.

00:00:39:17 – 00:00:44:09
And all the listeners said, you’re right, you did. And hitting for something. You didn’t give me anything.

00:00:44:09 – 00:00:48:22
Not very professional. And if you haven’t figured it out, we don’t edit this show. There’s no editing.

00:00:48:26 – 00:00:54:05
Yeah, absolutely. So if the phone rings and my cell phone goes off as it is life.

00:00:54:09 – 00:01:16:08
You’re getting the real deal here. So last episode before we were so abruptly disrupted by time, by ourselves. Yeah, it’s by ourselves and our self-imposed limits. We were talking about how sometimes it’s the biggest challenge is figuring out what are we even arguing about? Yes. A lot of times the issue isn’t even the issue. And so the first thing you got to take some time to allow time to talk through that.

00:01:16:10 – 00:01:40:13
Then here’s what my question is. A lot of times we go, we finally figure out what the real issue is, and we really do have disagreements about the approach to how we should handle it. Right. So I undermine Emily in some way in how she deals with our daughter Elise. Right. And it comes up later. We realize she’s like, well, you wanted to be the hero in how you responded to her.

00:01:40:14 – 00:02:04:11
The very thing you say we shouldn’t do. You actually just did by rewarding her with that. And I’m like, well, I didn’t see it as that. And she’s like, well, I did see it as that. So when you come to a place where you literally do have fundamental, different perspectives on seeing things, which is you and mom very much, or that way, like mom’s very, she’s she’s a lot more.

00:02:04:14 – 00:02:11:18
Yes, she’s a lot, but she’s a lot less. I don’t know. You’re not that rigid either. What is the difference between how you’ll deal with the like.

00:02:11:20 – 00:02:13:07
With conflict or with issues?

00:02:13:09 – 00:02:27:15
Well, like my mom likes, We should have brought her in for this show. Yeah. Anyway. Yeah. Yeah. We’d, like, had you out with the primary difference in how you, like. What’s the biggest conflict you guys have in terms of relating to life?

00:02:27:15 – 00:02:56:22
Well, some of that goes back to giving them back, like the Enneagram thing, you know, and as a six, she the the major thing is a fear, which it’s not a fear like terrified and all that. But she’s she’s very vigilant is the great word we’ve we’ve found that really describes it. She’s very vigilant. Yeah. So that causes stress within her which she could be a little stress, more stress free if she felt I was very vigilant and kind of looking out for her.

00:02:56:25 – 00:02:57:10
Yes.

00:02:57:12 – 00:03:07:00
Different things. But as a nine I’m like, man, life’s good. It’s going to only get better. No problem. Now why would we think there’s going to be a problem in the future?

00:03:07:06 – 00:03:11:17
And even if there’s a problem and that’s not worth addressing, right? That’s your thing. Yeah.

00:03:11:19 – 00:03:15:16
There’s no problem so big that it won’t go away if you ignore it long enough.

00:03:15:18 – 00:03:18:13
The worst possible advice it’s.

00:03:18:20 – 00:03:23:10
And it’s kept me going for seven years. Okay. Ulcers. No stress.

00:03:23:10 – 00:03:43:17
It’s interesting because I was talking to a, counselor the other day, and he was talking about the idea that sometimes our parents, you know, the the imprint they leave on us and one of the imprints I left is I’m kind of vigilant myself and do the things I would oftentimes be like, that’s not going to take care of this.

00:03:43:19 – 00:03:45:21
I better take care of this.

00:03:45:24 – 00:03:50:23
Little does she know that I really am paying attention to what’s going on around us.

00:03:50:25 – 00:03:52:09
Or and then ignoring it.

00:03:52:09 – 00:03:55:03
Yeah. Well, yeah, that’s true. Or it need to be dealt.

00:03:55:03 – 00:04:00:01
So it’s not just mom, mom, I’m with you. I had the same impact on me. I’m ruined for life because of that.

00:04:00:03 – 00:04:20:07
Yeah, yeah. Well, so that is kind of one of the things that I realize, you know, she, she tends because again, like, if we’re with you or say traveling or something, you know, she feels very relaxed and very like things are in control. Whereas with me I am I really can get by on my own. I can make it to the next day at the airport.

00:04:20:07 – 00:04:31:28
I can figure it out when we’re supposed to be somewhere, but I don’t worry about it half an hour ahead of time, you know? I mean, okay, when we land as we’re coming off the plane, then I’ll figure out where the next gate is.

00:04:32:01 – 00:04:32:15
Right?

00:04:32:16 – 00:04:35:11
I don’t need to know. 45 minutes, it might change, you know.

00:04:35:11 – 00:04:40:22
So a lot of y’alls conflict has to do with her feeling like you’re not thinking ahead enough, right?

00:04:40:23 – 00:04:55:08
Exactly. In fact, the times when I realized that and I said, okay, I’m going to I just kind of tell you, look, I got this. Just relax. I’m gonna take care and I’ll tell her ahead of time, okay? I know the gate. Well, as far as I’m concerned, I don’t need to know the gate, but it makes her feel cared for.

00:04:55:10 – 00:05:03:00
That. So those those have been some of the conflicts, that kind of thing. Just. Just different personalities. Like there’s one right or wrong, you know, it’s just different.

00:05:03:02 – 00:05:09:12
Which I think that’s super important to understand that most of our conflicts, I think, have similar patterns around similar things.

00:05:09:14 – 00:05:31:02
Yeah. And I think that is a big one. Yeah. That shows itself in many different ways. She she just seems stressed over something. And if I didn’t realize, oh, I could really okay, I’m looking ahead. I’ve got the plan. I know what we’re going to do. But if I don’t tell her that. Yeah, that didn’t help. It’s kind of like unexpressed love.

00:05:31:05 – 00:05:49:29
You know, if you really love somebody but you’re not expressing it, then I didn’t help them. And if I’m planning ahead and I’m looking out for things like, well, we’re in a situation that’s a dangerous situation. I’m always on guard, I really am. I’m I’m paying attention to what’s going on. But if I don’t tell her that I’ve been times I said, look, I want you to know I’m paying attention.

00:05:49:29 – 00:05:53:08
There’s this, you can just see it. Really? Yeah.

00:05:53:11 – 00:05:54:11
She’s just fascinating.

00:05:54:11 – 00:06:03:02
It’s really interesting. But I am that way. That’s what I say. I really am not as clueless as I let. Let’s add that on. I am paying attention.

00:06:03:02 – 00:06:05:25
I’m not as aloof as it seems. Just mildly aloof.

00:06:05:25 – 00:06:06:28
Yeah, that’s right, that’s right.

00:06:06:29 – 00:06:15:24
That’s that’s interesting because Emily and I’s conflict usually tends to be with with her feeling run over by me. Oh, yeah. Because I’m such a force.

00:06:15:27 – 00:06:16:11
Yeah.

00:06:16:14 – 00:06:25:20
Our conflict always tends to come down to either me making her look foolish, like she doesn’t know what she’s doing. Like it’s me. It’s the. It’s the exact.

00:06:25:20 – 00:06:26:20
Opposite, in a way.

00:06:26:20 – 00:06:31:24
It is. Yeah. Yeah, it is, because I had to overcompensate. Because I have a father that never looked out for me.

00:06:31:24 – 00:06:35:24
Yeah. Father issues. Let’s talk about that.

00:06:35:26 – 00:06:52:26
So with her, it’s always like, I like, she’s like, you just take up space. Like. So she’s yelling at me about taking up the whole aisle in the in the grocery store. She’s like, why are you always taking over? And I’m like, I have every right to be in this aisle as much as anybody else should. Just. But you don’t have to take the whole aisle.

00:06:52:28 – 00:06:53:19
That’s your you.

00:06:53:20 – 00:06:57:18
Emily. I wish we had been able to say those things.

00:06:57:20 – 00:07:10:06
Apparently, I take up a lot of space emotionally. Physically? Yes you do. So that’s our conflict is always like, she’s like, I just need a break from me. And we spend a lot of time together. Yeah, like, because I work.

00:07:10:06 – 00:07:11:02
At kind of home.

00:07:11:04 – 00:07:28:24
Working at home, we have the opposite problem a lot of people have is like this. They don’t have enough time together. We have too much time together ringing each other’s throats. I’ve heard that from a lot of people working from home. It’s just like, I just need you to leave. Just leave the house. Yes, but apparently my big personality takes up a lot of space.

00:07:28:26 – 00:07:46:13
And that’s our constant conflict. Or she feels like, not seen or over overwhelmed by, you know, well what you want. Always takes precedent because you always you’re always proactive about what you want, right? But when I want something, you’re not proactive and you don’t use the force of your will to go after that as much something I have been guilty of that.

00:07:46:17 – 00:07:54:04
Yeah. And oftentimes our conflicts come down to that, which I think is super important to understand, that usually it’s going to come back to a root of 1 or 2 things.

00:07:54:04 – 00:07:54:27
Yeah, that’s true.

00:07:54:27 – 00:07:56:03
What the conflict is.

00:07:56:09 – 00:08:06:03
Yeah. And and it seems to me like in both of our situations what we’re talking about here, it kind of comes back to our basic nature, our basic characteristic temperament, personality, whatever you want to call it.

00:08:06:03 – 00:08:06:20
Yeah.

00:08:06:22 – 00:08:16:24
You know that that is the that is the driving force, which is interesting because, the idea of usually you marry somebody that’s the opposite of you.

00:08:16:26 – 00:08:17:14
Right?

00:08:17:16 – 00:08:23:17
And so, that would be an interesting exploration sometimes. Why in the world.

00:08:23:20 – 00:08:32:09
Which it’s appealing to you when it’s appealing to you. Like, the thing is so appealing me about Emily at first is she’s super chill and she’s super stable. She’s super calm.

00:08:32:09 – 00:08:35:24
Enjoys life and brings, brings. Yeah. Sort of.

00:08:35:27 – 00:08:36:28
All about that. Yeah.

00:08:36:28 – 00:08:38:09
Outlook and perspective.

00:08:38:09 – 00:08:41:01
Life of the party, super extrovert, all that.

00:08:41:01 – 00:08:50:19
You’re kind of the downer of the party. You’re too realistic. That’s the problem. Yes. I like to think if I was going to go wrong at this party, I can see, you know.

00:08:50:21 – 00:08:57:11
Okay, that’s a huge thing. Is she this line? I say it all the time, and she, like, loses it. When I say this. I’m like, there’s holes in that plan.

00:08:57:11 – 00:08:58:00
Yeah, I can hear.

00:08:58:00 – 00:08:58:27
And she’s like.

00:08:58:29 – 00:09:00:02
Right.

00:09:00:04 – 00:09:07:15
Like I thought this through and I’m like, I know. But there’s holes in it. A lot could go wrong here. And she hates it when I point that out.

00:09:07:15 – 00:09:21:17
Yeah, well, I can understand that because I’m the same way. You know, I just kind of figured it’ll all work out. If not, we’ll deal with it at the time, you know, like, plan ahead. You deal with it at the moment, because who knows? It may go well. Yeah. And then you’ve wasted all that time worrying about it.

00:09:21:19 – 00:09:32:14
That goes back to the idea of, too, of how you approach anything is how you approach everything. And when you start to kind of understand that fundamental temperament of your your spouse, if their thing is safety, right? That’s where the Enneagram is so helpful.

00:09:32:14 – 00:09:32:29
It is it.

00:09:32:29 – 00:09:36:27
Really apart from it being completely demonic and from Satan? Yeah, it’s very helpful.

00:09:36:27 – 00:09:42:20
Well, Satan every now and then comes up with something good to oh, wouldn’t it be. We can’t we can’t delete that. Right. This is live and we don’t do anything.

00:09:42:20 – 00:10:01:07
The devil is do that they call. But the Enneagram talks about these motivations, right? Supposedly it was Enneagram was created by, Saint Anthony in the desert. People would come to him expressing their frustrations in relationship to God. And he came up with these nine ways, right? So the one is like rightness. We want things to be right, and the duty is important and doing the right thing.

00:10:01:09 – 00:10:19:15
And maybe that’s your conflict with your spouse. Your spouse thinks there’s only one right way to do things right. The Enneagram two is all about help and caring and and, wanting to be needed. And if you’re not ever with somebody that needs their help, it can be they can feel very unfulfilled. Right. And number three is about achieving, that’s the drive, right.

00:10:19:15 – 00:10:36:25
So I’ve learned in dealing with people with Enneagram threes is you want to affirm them that you’re doing you’re you’re successful. You’re doing things well. Right. In the four it’s all about, uniqueness, right? You don’t value my uniqueness. Right. And the conflict and the artistic. Yeah, yeah.

00:10:36:27 – 00:10:39:11
We had something new pierced this week, right? Yeah.

00:10:39:11 – 00:10:57:28
The Enneagram five is about information and knowledge. Like they value what they bring to the table. And if you don’t give them time to talk out what they’ve researched and looked into, it can be very frustrating. The six is all about the safety and safety. That’s why they’re great parents, the safety and the nurturing. And we have a backup plan for the backup plan.

00:10:58:00 – 00:11:00:17
And most people like majority.

00:11:00:20 – 00:11:20:15
Yeah, they say up to 60% of the population is numbers. Enneagram sixes. Yeah. So that’s high, but up to 6% possible, right? Yeah. Number seven is about, kind of fun. This is Emily. It’s about the fun and the joy and the like. Just let’s let’s. If it ain’t fun, it ain’t worth doing, right.

00:11:20:15 – 00:11:22:20
Yeah. And it’s the real problem, child.

00:11:22:22 – 00:11:42:03
The eights are. They told everything together. And I’m just kidding. I’m an eight. The eights are all about, fun. They thrive on conflict and stirring things up and just kind of create. Donald Trump is an eight. Just like, let’s just let’s tariff everybody and see what happens.

00:11:42:06 – 00:11:43:25
Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah.

00:11:43:28 – 00:11:45:06
So, the.

00:11:45:07 – 00:11:48:21
And when you achieve your highest point, you become a.

00:11:48:21 – 00:11:50:04
An Enneagram nine, right?

00:11:50:04 – 00:11:50:14
Yes.

00:11:50:14 – 00:12:03:09
Exactly. Yeah. But nines their thing is peace. What nines want is peace. And so what gets in the way for nines is when something disrupts their peace, when they’re in charge of a large organization, and there’s all these things that are happening and you’re like, I just made peace.

00:12:03:09 – 00:12:06:11
Yeah, yeah. So that’s not a it’s not a hierarchy, by the way.

00:12:06:12 – 00:12:17:18
It’s not a hierarchy. No. They all have their own. If anything’s it. Yeah. If anything that it would be reverse nine and eight. Think some eight nines. I like to think I’m second to the highest. Right.

00:12:17:20 – 00:12:19:00
I’m just kidding.

00:12:19:02 – 00:12:27:00
It’s. But it’s not a hierarchy. No it’s not, but the bottom line is it’s motivations. And I think a lot of times our what comes into conflict is our motivations.

00:12:27:00 – 00:12:40:29
Yeah, exactly. Because it is, you know, it’s that internal thing that affects it. It’s the way we view the world and everything, really. It’s the desires we have and the drives we have. And so it’s it’s like it’s like you put on a pair of sunglasses and if they’re red, everything looks red. If they’re green, everything looks green.

00:12:41:02 – 00:12:56:10
And it’s kind of the way we view the world. You want everything in my case. Come on. It’s going to be okay. We just want peace. Just sort of I think one guy said it’s just wish the world would just sort of leave me alone and we can just flow along and, and just have peace and get along, you know?

00:12:56:10 – 00:12:58:08
Yeah. Can we all just get along?

00:12:58:11 – 00:13:08:21
Yeah. So you just look through these glasses, like, what’s what’s the matter here? Why are we not all getting along and, you know, and, and so anyway. Yeah, it’s different. And that’s going to drive everything you see in the way you see everything too.

00:13:08:23 – 00:13:29:11
Yeah. So that’s where I think one of the most important things we can do is, first of all, recognizing what are the general motivations that are constantly in conflict. Recognize those things so that the next time you’re in a conflict, you go, this is probably in some way going to go back to this, right? And that’s where you say, oh, it’s your daddy issue, or it’s your mommy issue, right.

00:13:29:13 – 00:13:48:05
But ultimately, what that mommy issue translates as is some sort of motivation or desire you feel isn’t being met. And that’s where we have these conflicts and you, but you’re not going to I don’t believe you’re going to come to peace. Just looking at the surface level, I really do think you have to be somebody. You’re like, well, I’m not one that’s super introspective.

00:13:48:05 – 00:14:09:00
Well, I don’t think that’s an excuse. I think if you’re going to thrive in relationships, you have to do that a little bit. Thomas at campus, he said A humble knowledge of thyself is a sure way to God than a search after deep learning, like there’s this element of for us to get along, we have to recognize the value, but also the shortfalls of our personality.

00:14:09:00 – 00:14:24:18
You have to recognize the values of the person you’re married to, but also the shortfalls of it. And, you don’t need to bring the shortfalls to the surface, but you need to recognize that’s going to be with every positive. There’s a opposite kind of thing that comes with it, a negative side of that trait.

00:14:24:23 – 00:14:48:00
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you know, I just think of what James as a question, he goes and I hope this isn’t. But he says what causes the quarrels and the fights among you. He says the evil desires warring within. And so again what’s causing the external. It’s from the internal. Right. And he’s, he’s saying that those internal things, it’s not the godliness and the righteousness.

00:14:48:00 – 00:15:09:06
You know this righteous indignation. Nice. Is there some sort of evil desires. Maybe it’s pride. Maybe it’s you feel you need something I need you to have. And so yeah, even James says you need to look inside if you want to figure out what the what the source of this disagreement and quarrel is.

00:15:09:09 – 00:15:26:07
Thanks for listening. Please consider sharing this with your friends on the platform of your choice. For more from Joel Malm, visit Joel Malm.com. For more from Rick mom visit Rick Malm.com. Our podcast music was produced by Alex Ferguson.