Fall Forward and Fight Again

Fallen ministry leaders are all over the news today, with exposures of immoral and even criminal behavior from all parts of the Body coming to light at a dizzying pace. It’s not hard to find people wanting to point fingers at those people, demanding justice and retribution — and for good reason.

But what happens to those fallen leaders themselves? When the spotlight is off and the glare of the news camera light has moved on to someone else, how does God deal with them?

In this 40-minute video, Shane Idleman interviews Gary Hornsby, a pastor with past, about the issues that led him into a pit — and how God reached down and pulled him back out to rewrite his story. If you need hope and encouragement, this message is for you.

“When you go into a pit, there’s gonna be a group of people who will forever remember you as the guy who fell into a pit,” Hornsby says. 

“Or you weren’t saved to begin with,” Idleman interjects.

“But there’s gonna be another group of people who say, ‘Man — he came out of that pit,'” Hornsby says. “They’ll see the song. The enemy wants you to stay in the pit, but God wants to bring you out.”

Shane Idleman is the founder and lead pastor of Westside Christian Fellowship in Southern California and the creator of the WCF Radio Network. His program, Regaining Lost Ground, points us back to God and reminds us that although times change, truth does not. His books, blogs, and sermons can all be found at ShaneIdleman.com.

Editor’s Note: The transcript that follows was automatically generated and lightly edited, so please be aware there could be typos or other small errors. The Stream is working toward a transcription service that does fast, accurate, and reliable work; thank you in advance for your patience!

00:00:06:00 – 00:00:31:23
All right, everyone, welcome to this episode of Pastors Unplugged. It’ll go out to laity everyone as well, because I think this is such an important topic. I’ve got my special guest here and a friend of mine, new friend of mine, Gary Hornsby. If I pronounce that right, you can correct me. Hornsby. Okay. And, so many similarities in ministry and he’s going to kind of walk us through this redemptive work of Christ and falling forward and coming out of the pit.

00:00:32:00 – 00:00:50:04
And his story is, well, let me just tell you upfront, I’m when you when you told me about what happened, I was excited and actually proud of you because so many people fall and they don’t want to talk about it. And number one, number two is many people don’t realize that all of us have issues in our lives.

00:00:50:06 – 00:01:05:11
And if we don’t deal with them, at some point they will take us down. Pastors, leaders, Christians. You know, I’ve opened up in my past, you know, with, years ago before we even started the church, you know, alcohol. You know, if I open that door again, you know, it’ll it’ll take me down. And there’s always these areas.

00:01:05:13 – 00:01:22:17
And so I think when we don’t talk about it, when we don’t let people know we’re, you know, that we’re not real and transparent, that it doesn’t really help them to the degree it could. So anyway, I’ll let you take over for now, and then I’ll ask a few questions if you kind of want to give us a, snapshot of what happened.

00:01:22:17 – 00:01:29:19
I know you were a pastor, you know, maybe how many years ago. And then, you know, what happened with all that and and where you’re at now.

00:01:29:21 – 00:01:46:17
Yeah. So thanks for having me. First of all, I really appreciate this opportunity just to, really to give God the glory. Yes. And that’s that’s the great thing about it. If I was, you know, if we had a room of 100 people that were believers in Jesus, and I went around and asked for all their stories, all of us came out of different pits.

00:01:46:17 – 00:01:47:10
Right.

00:01:47:12 – 00:01:58:23
All of us have different stories of what we were in, but in how how stuck we were or how deep the pit was or all these things, you know, we have all these pits, but we all have the same hero.

00:01:59:00 – 00:01:59:08
Right.

00:01:59:14 – 00:02:03:23
We all have the same hand that reaches down into that pit when we cry out to him.

00:02:03:23 – 00:02:21:22
He’s the one that gets the glory for everything that we do. And you know, the the really. The reality is like Psalms 41 through three that I’m kind of making reference to right now is when I got saved in prison as a young man, when that that scripture jumped out of me because here I was in what I considered a pit.

00:02:22:04 – 00:02:46:09
I’m just getting saved. He is pulling me up out of this pit, seting me on a foundation establishing a new Goines, giving me a new perspective on life. And many will see my life and know they’ll, God will be glorified right in our lives to glorify him. What we don’t understand, though, when we think about David, who wrote that psalm that you want to ask the question, you know, wonder what he was talking about, you know what I mean?

00:02:46:09 – 00:02:54:16
Because he doesn’t really say which pit. You know, some of those pits were no fault of his own. Another those pits, if you went looked in the mirror, he had the shovel.

00:02:54:17 – 00:02:55:06
He created it.

00:02:55:06 – 00:03:02:17
Right? He created the pit. And you’re like, which one? Which was he talking about here? And sometimes we can in for each of our lives, right?

00:03:02:17 – 00:03:18:14
Not only when we get saved, but we realize there’s going to be times in our life that we’re going to be faced with different pits and different things. When we put in some tragedies that happen to us, when our kids might pass away before us or just financial calamity, there’s all kinds of different pits we might find yourself in.

00:03:18:16 – 00:03:31:14
But the beautiful part is, is that when we cry out to him but that grace, there’s never a pit that’s so deep that you know I love him. When the Lord says and ask that question in Scripture, is my arm too short? You know what I mean?

00:03:31:14 – 00:03:31:20
Yeah.

00:03:31:20 – 00:03:35:17
You said, do you think your pit, your pit, your situation, you think you’re too stuck?

00:03:35:23 – 00:03:51:04
You think you’ve blown it too much? You think you’ve you’ve really done it now. Now there’s no hope for you. Do you think my my arm of grace can’t come down and reach down and grab Ahold of you and pull you out? And so the more mature, I’ve been serving the Lord for 34 years. I got saved in 1988.

00:03:51:04 – 00:03:52:18
And then pastored after prison.

00:03:52:23 – 00:04:19:23
Yes, and I, planted a church pastor church in Rancho Cucamonga called River the River’s Edge Church. Never wanted to be a pastor, of course, and also got that started a 20 Acre Men’s Ranch. You know, used to do all kinds of outreaches, all kinds of stuff for the kingdom of God, promoting the kingdom of God. So I look back, there’s been several pits, and sometimes we find ourselves in a pit that, can seem so overwhelming, and so deep and so.

00:04:19:23 – 00:04:22:09
Like, you know, the enemy really wants to take you out.

00:04:22:09 – 00:04:23:03
Absolutely. Yeah.

00:04:23:06 – 00:04:27:00
But what I found out and what I want to talk about today is that new song.

00:04:27:05 – 00:04:27:19
Yeah.

00:04:27:21 – 00:04:35:16
He says he’ll put a new song in our mouth and many shall see it and put their trust in the Lord. And, you know, we don’t always get to choose our stories.

00:04:35:16 – 00:04:45:16
And God will, as he says, he works all things to the good. But I’m understood. Like you said in the beginning, I learn when I am willing to just be authentic and real about my journey.

00:04:45:18 – 00:04:46:03
Right.

00:04:46:03 – 00:04:52:20
Right. It’s going to give hope is it’s the lyrics to a new song. And sometimes those new songs are only birthed out of another pit.

00:04:52:23 – 00:04:53:10
Right. Yeah. Absolutely.

00:04:53:13 – 00:04:59:11
Right? You know what I mean? You know, say why you want a new song. Well, you might have to get pulled out of a new pit in order to have the new song.

00:04:59:16 – 00:04:59:20
Yeah.

00:04:59:21 – 00:05:08:23
But it says many will see and fear and they’ll put their trust in the Lord. And so what I found is in my story is that I’ve,

00:05:09:01 – 00:05:28:22
Of course, I’ve always had a heart for leaders and pastors. I’ve just been wired the way a very kingdom minded guy. And what I realize is my story now has given many pastors, many leaders, hope that they can get their life right no matter what the consequences might come, because that was a big part, and then establish a new law.

00:05:28:22 – 00:05:38:19
And that’s why repentance is so important, because without that, you kind of stay in that pit. You know, if you don’t repent and and cry out to the Lord, you stay blaming excuses.

00:05:38:21 – 00:05:45:16
Well, when you’re in the pit, right. The devil wants to give you a shovel, right? You can dig your way out of this. Or or like you said,

00:05:45:16 – 00:05:46:10
Cover yourself.

00:05:46:11 – 00:05:47:08
Yeah, cover yourself. Right?

00:05:47:08 – 00:05:47:20
Go ahead and cover yourself.

00:05:47:21 – 00:06:06:15
So you’re just like, yeah, you’re done. That’s what. That’s what our flesh. Everybody wants to do it because that’s self-preservation is a powerful emotion, one to preserve self. So sometimes people would rather just just hide in that. Versus or just try to trudge through it without really being able to walk in the victory that is afforded them.

00:06:06:15 – 00:06:37:01
But but, you know, there’s, there’s, you know, it’s not easy to, to come clean. So, you know, my situation, for me, it was literally, we just kind of give you a little backdrop. So when I was, when I was a young man, there was a bit that happened to me that, my dad had had several wives. And one of his wives was younger at him one time, and and they went out drinking one night, she came back home.

00:06:37:01 – 00:06:56:15
I was 12, 13 years old. She climbed to bed with me, you know, so my very that my very first sexual experience was my dad. Stepmom broke me up with my stepmom. Right. Yeah. And so and just starting puberty, all that stuff. So you get all these emotions as a young man and like, you’re finding something really gratifying and all that sort of stuff.

00:06:56:15 – 00:07:18:20
But but literally, yeah, you’re just trying to process, which is this is I love my, my me and my dad. We’re close when I say close relationship close. So here I’m doing something against him that just boggles my mind. And I felt like I was the scum of the earth. Yeah, but yet when she would come on to me, I would feel like Superman, right?

00:07:18:21 – 00:07:39:15
Right. So as I’m like this merry go round from hell of of, I would feel so bad about what I was doing. He would literally drive me to want to do it to her because she made me feel good. She’s. I feel, you know, it’s all drinking, right? Shame, guilt. I want to drink because I feel so bad, and drinking makes me feel better.

00:07:39:15 – 00:07:57:12
Which in turn, it makes me feel so bad as right. Yeah. It’s a cycle or drug use addiction. Anything. So when I got saved, I thought, you know, I actually even kind of changed that story in my mind as I grew up, you know, I started saying, oh, yeah, I started off being trained by an older woman. You know, it kind of made it into a good story.

00:07:57:12 – 00:08:27:18
Right? Right. Let’s see. What I didn’t understand is I had made an agreement inside my heart as a very young, young, young man that I’m a horrible person. Horrible person. What kind of person does this? Right. And I didn’t understand what that had planted in me. I never addressed it right until I went through all this stuff. And then I went through, you know, after I failed in my marriage, I went through like 13, 14 months of, you know, discovery.

00:08:28:00 – 00:08:43:11
And I really would back to that agreement, of course, handle that agreement. Put the truth of what Jesus says in that and got it correctly. But what it did, when that happened to me, I realized I was susceptible to certain kind of women coming on to me a certain way that triggered that all the motion.

00:08:43:12 – 00:08:44:20
Was cracks in the armor.

00:08:44:22 – 00:09:05:02
Yes, yes. Yeah, yeah. You know, and I used to always know there are two things that I really wanted when I was a young man where after I got, saved, is I wanted to wait, to, intercourse till I was married. Yeah. And then I wanted to be that 75 year old guy that could say, hey, I was faithful to your mom.

00:09:05:04 – 00:09:23:06
Well, I mean, those are like, two. Would you call strong values that I wanted to do, but yet I would struggle with certain women that come on to me a certain way. I would get, like, foggy minded. I mean, it was like compromise. It’s almost like the something was getting released in my body that was like, man, I want to say why I’m so foggy.

00:09:23:06 – 00:09:26:14
You think game was demonic? You know, maybe a demonic stronghold within.

00:09:26:15 – 00:09:31:12
That, or it was pushing those buttons of the way that one woman would come on to be true. Yeah, I mean, it was doing that.

00:09:31:14 – 00:09:53:10
And what you told me that really, you know, was is going to be eye opening is you kept preaching during that season and leading the church because you can’t I can’t lose all this, you know, self-preservation. Yeah. You were preaching just as strong because you’re you’re so broke and going to the Lord. And then you know that that that that dichotomy of what’s happening.

00:09:53:11 – 00:10:25:00
It’s called desperation. Desperation. And there’s amazing thing about when you’re desperate for God to show up. Yeah, he is grace. Right. So yeah. So let me just kind of fast forward today. So we don’t have a lot of time to talk about this, but so and once I, once I, I failed in my marriage. Then of course, all of a sudden, I found myself, you know, it’s like I used to tell my men all the time, you know, you’ve heard have said that, you know, don’t ever get on the train because the train will take you farther than when you to go.

00:10:25:02 – 00:10:41:12
You keep you longer. You want to stay in college more, though, and you want to pay. I mean, I mean, I, I preach that. Yeah. Believed it. Yeah I, I discipled guys of that a sudden I realize I’m on the train. Yes I’m on the train how to get out. And another point is being I’m in a pit.

00:10:41:14 – 00:11:12:18
Right. And see, the problem is when we’re a leader and we fail in that way, that the pit is so, so overwhelming. Because because of our position, because of who we are and because of the the collateral damage that will happen of us coming clean. It is it’s it’s overwhelming. So the shame, the guilt. And then what happens is when you’re now all of a sudden you’re even more susceptible because now you’re on that, it’s almost like you’re back on that merry go round that.

00:11:12:19 – 00:11:26:11
Right. And so and but for me, I think we’ve talked a little bit about my story, what happened at the Rose Bowl. And I had that, a sudden cardiac death on 11, 11, 11 and, and so then.

00:11:26:13 – 00:11:29:06
We got to talk about that for a minute. You have a pacemaker that.

00:11:29:10 – 00:11:30:22
Some defibrillator.

00:11:30:22 – 00:11:31:19
That sometimes goes.

00:11:31:19 – 00:11:37:20
Off only when my heart stops. Well, that’s when it’s only supposed to go off the turn off a couple times accidentally.

00:11:37:22 – 00:11:43:00
Oh my goodness. But you didn’t have that at the Rose Bowl. No. That’s what caused you to.

00:11:43:01 – 00:12:03:21
Yeah. So it was a miracle. The story there’s a Christian guy was it was to work that day. Told his boss man I to some reason was to be there. He comes there. It’s a big event. And the Rose Bowl cold light in the sand. I was there was a bunch of people from my church went down to the bathroom, I came out, I looked at my guys who were doing security there to rotate for my men’s ranch.

00:12:03:23 – 00:12:23:22
And, my heart is shut up electronically. I mean, it’s called sudden cardiac death, because when you hit the ground, you’re gone. Yeah, right. So so when that, when that happened to me, this medic who wasn’t supposed to be at work that day and already drove the medical cart to that side of the Rose Bowl, stopped the car, got out and said, Lord, why am I at work today?

00:12:24:00 – 00:12:29:03
He hears something, turns around. I’m on the ground, where he had the jumpers on his cart with.

00:12:29:03 – 00:12:30:12
This little ad. It had been.

00:12:30:14 – 00:12:37:10
Done. Yeah. So people die in the hospital from this is really. Yeah. So? So God miraculously saved my life.

00:12:37:12 – 00:12:40:03
And were you right with him by then? Like, oh.

00:12:40:03 – 00:12:41:05
No, this is before. Before.

00:12:41:06 – 00:12:41:14
That’s right.

00:12:41:14 – 00:13:00:00
Yeah, yeah. So this is before. Yeah. And so then, and you think, man, after a miracle like that, you’d be set for the rest of your life to make sure you. You know what I mean? What’s the you think? Yeah. Right. But all of a sudden, I was I was the living, like, today might be my last day, you know, my last day.

00:13:00:02 – 00:13:21:00
And I ended up putting myself in a position of visiting a girl that I was a fiancee with, you know, years ago and all that stuff. And just the same dynamics there. And, so I had the feeling and then, then I at first I tried to just I thought I dug myself out of it. I thought I, you know, I covered up myself.

00:13:21:00 – 00:13:38:11
Well, whatever. I thought I was done with it. But then years later when in four years later, I had to go in for open heart surgery and, she had reached out to me again. We thought we had it, you know. You know. Yeah, yeah. So we thought, okay, I got through that. I’m on. You know who that was?

00:13:38:13 – 00:13:39:03
My son.

00:13:39:05 – 00:13:40:06
My son will find me out.

00:13:40:06 – 00:14:01:21
Yeah, yeah. You know, he was like, really? That was really close. She reconnected with me when I had mobile surgery, and, then I went in for my surgery, and I sort of. Yeah, I told her. Yes, I call her back. And then, then when I got out of the hospital the day I got to the hospital, she started to text me because I hadn’t called her back yet, and I just.

00:14:01:23 – 00:14:12:04
And at that moment I realized I’m. I haven’t really resolved it, you know? I mean, I’m still on the train. Wow. Right. I thought I was off the train, but I’m still on the train.

00:14:12:04 – 00:14:14:01
Yeah. Because you’re still contacting or.

00:14:14:03 – 00:14:27:21
Yeah. You know, I mean, so so then I get this, then I get this text message, and this is when I get this text message from this prophetic guy that I’ve known for for years from up in San Francisco. A lot of times he’ll text me things that.

00:14:27:23 – 00:14:29:00
Sometimes are dead on.

00:14:29:00 – 00:14:44:16
Yeah, yeah, but sometimes it’s something I know. I’m, like, trying to understand what he’s even talking about. Right? It’s kind of crazy. And I’m like, you know, at this time he was talking about the Israelites coming out of Egypt and, and, and it’s all in regular letters. Right? Then it goes into capital letters and it says, don’t test God.

00:14:44:19 – 00:15:07:22
Don’t test God. Even if it cost you everything, it’s worth it to find the real you. And then he goes into the story about the Israelites, like regular, you know, mean. And I tell you those capital words because I’m contemplating my situation. Yeah. And those words jumped off that screen. You could you if God was sitting in a choir of angels to tell me that same thing, you couldn’t had any more impact.

00:15:07:22 – 00:15:09:04
Just how impactful was that?

00:15:09:08 – 00:15:10:03
That’s amazing.

00:15:10:03 – 00:15:37:17
And it says even if it cost you everything, he gives me a promise. It’s worth it to find the real you. Think about them believable. Is that crazy? And so I begin to think, well, what’s everything? What if I confess ministry was everything in marriage. So I concluded that, okay, if Jesus comes back next week, who do I want him to find?

00:15:37:22 – 00:15:58:02
The well, I wanted to find the guy is pastoring a church, got a ranch, got a satellite TV program, got I got businesses. All this other stuff that’s going on, you know, with my heart 80, 90%. Right, right. Or I rather I’m find a single guy living in an apartment working as a janitor with my heart 100%. Right?

00:15:58:04 – 00:16:21:10
Yeah. And all of a sudden, I was just like, I’d rather be the single guy. Live in an apartment, you know? And I just had this moment of. Of courage. Yeah. You know, to, to say, you know, and I really didn’t understand the promise to find the real you because I was one of those pastors live like people who say it to you as they probably like you because you feel like they feel like you’re the the real deal.

00:16:21:10 – 00:16:40:22
Right? Right. Because if you followed me around in my life, I didn’t act any different at home or at the store or wherever I went. I was consistent. And people always says, man, I just meant curious. Like, you’re like, you’re like the real deal. I thought you said the real me to me didn’t even really compute fully in my head because I’m like, what do you mean, Lord?

00:16:40:22 – 00:17:03:07
I yeah, you know, of course, I wasn’t completely clean on confessing because of the collateral damage, but other than that, I was you know, I’m pretty much an open book, right? And, so I didn’t really see it. And so I ended up, you know, confessing to that. And then I resigned. I was a Foursquare minister, and I went into immediately.

00:17:03:07 – 00:17:26:05
I just wanted to find out, because what I wanted to find out what it was when I says I just because sometimes when we struggle with something as leaders, we say, I just don’t understand. You very. Ever seen nothing like it. Just understand why that grabs me, why that pulls me down. I understand this, I was literally there.

00:17:26:07 – 00:17:44:20
I had one of those in my life. I don’t understand why. Because I did everything I told you. I do understand now. I didn’t understand this, right? Right. I had gone on that journey and so I just don’t understand. And so I wanted to like, you know, I told my, my supervisors and foursquare, listen, I don’t need any carrots.

00:17:44:20 – 00:18:00:13
I don’t want anybody, I want to I want to go through a process because I want to get to the root cause. I want to find out what’s what. I don’t understand. Yeah, right. I just wanted to do it. And, so I got associated with a ministry called Ted Roberts. Pure desire. And I’ve heard of that.

00:18:00:14 – 00:18:07:23
Yeah, Ted’s a great guy. He took me on himself, and, so I met with him every week for 13.

00:18:07:23 – 00:18:38:04
So that’s what that’s that’s a good just to transition over, then back to what you’re saying. But many pastors or leaders or anyone, they won’t do that accountability or even if they do it for a week, like, okay, you know, I’ll do it. I got caught, but very few. I mean, I can name some some of the bigger name pastors who have fallen over the years and, I’ve known 2 or 3 of their accountability groups, and in all cases, they withdrew from their accountability group within, you know, a couple of weeks or a month.

00:18:38:08 – 00:19:03:10
Well, the shame, true force forcing the guilt is overwhelming when you realize you’re hurting the people you love the most. Yeah. Your immediate family, my wife and we had just had one of our sons pass away, in so I, I had failed and then he had passed away, so I did it. He hadn’t passed away. And then I filled in that season where I was struggling and failing.

00:19:03:12 – 00:19:25:14
He passed away. Right. And so you imagine the emotions are going on in our family right? Beyond anything. Yeah. The also there was I had five years of just a lot of trials through my businesses that we experience a lot of the, setbacks, my business as well. So there was a lot of stuff, you know, just in our life was going on.

00:19:25:14 – 00:19:50:12
Yeah. And to think that I had to that pain and suffering to my wife, to my kids, and then to all the people who came faithfully and supported a ministry. And I was the visionary, and I was taking them on a journey and, and all of a sudden their their leader’s not there anymore. This year is overwhelming.

00:19:50:13 – 00:19:53:07
The regret I can’t even imagine.

00:19:53:09 – 00:20:11:21
Yeah. And so it’s so the enemy at that moment. I mean he really wants to take you out. He says, man, you’re in a suicidal thoughts. God, I’ve never I’ve, I’ve never been a person that because I’ve been through a lot an entire life. And so I always know you, you can get through it. But I could see a person because it seems overwhelming.

00:20:11:21 – 00:20:16:02
It seems like you’re way out. I’m done. Yeah. I’m done my whole reputation.

00:20:16:05 – 00:20:18:03
Or they run back to the sin.

00:20:18:05 – 00:20:38:18
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, the the desire for me was I wanted to not. I wanted to find out the root cause and I won to matter of fact, I even though when I confessed to my wife, I told her, I said, listen, I’m not telling you this because I want to end anything. I’m telling you this because I want our next 20 years to be the best that it can be, right?

00:20:38:21 – 00:20:56:17
Right. And when? Because the doctor said that time frame to me, they said this open heart surgery we did for you in 2015, we think we’ve given you another 20 years and before I was thinking I was going to die any day. Yeah. Right. Now, all of a sudden they’re telling me I’m going to live for 20 years.

00:20:56:18 – 00:21:11:16
I’m like, well, I don’t want to live with this secret. No, for 20 years and change the dynamic. So the good news, health wise, was bad news spiritual because I was like, what? I thought I was going to die. I’ll just. I’m just gonna die. Yeah, right. And so it’s not going to go much longer. You know, I drive.

00:21:11:16 – 00:21:31:11
No, I drive in the morning, see a sunrise. I say, I wonder if this is my last sunrise, but now they’re saying, hey, you got 20 more years. This, like, I want things to be right. And I know there’s leaders out there right now. You’re struggling with things you failed. And it seems like if you come clean, it’s going to it’s the devastation, the collateral damage, and everything is going to be so overwhelming.

00:21:31:11 – 00:21:53:21
There’s no hope. But here’s the thing is, there’s a new song. Yeah. And that’s this. The beautiful part of this message is that when he pulls us out of that pit chain and when it feels like it’s too deep, there’s no way, how is he ever going to, you know, reestablish, do anything. And I guess I’m just, you know, and I, you know, honestly, I was content with.

00:21:53:21 – 00:22:14:20
Okay. Lord, whatever. I don’t need no titles, I don’t need I was never a title guy anyhow, right? I didn’t need titles. And, you know, pats on the back ministry wise and stuff. So, I was content with just being, well, I just whatever I put her I need to do. Right. It was just like, I’m just want to serve you, Lord.

00:22:14:22 – 00:22:41:19
And but to see how he all of a sudden he uses our life and we cry out to him and he grabs hold of us. He pulls us out and he sets us on a rock again. And and God blessed me with a lot of the. The church I attend is called the Way World Outreach. And, Pastor Marco, it was just one of my most when I used to do a lot of Kingdom events, pulling a lot of pastors together in the Inland Empire, doing a lot of, unity stuff, and then, you know, impacting our region for Jesus.

00:22:41:19 – 00:23:08:22
There’s got a lot of cool stories. And what God did amongst that, there was one pastor that was always just he just he was very flexible. He had to turn on a dime, you know, take advantage of opportunities. And he just became like, I mean, I call my pastor all those, like, my favorite pastors and stuff. Little did I know that he would be the one to receive me in such a way that really just instilled hope.

00:23:09:00 – 00:23:23:16
Yes, into my life and a whole new level just from. Because here’s the thing. When you go in the pit, there’s going to be a group of people that are they’re going to forever remember you always as the guy who fell in the pit. Yep.

00:23:23:18 – 00:23:25:10
Right. Oh, you weren’t saved to begin with.

00:23:25:11 – 00:23:47:10
You’re the guy. We know what you did. You fell in the pit. You’re a pit guy, right? And then there’s going to be another group of people and say, man, you came out of that man. God is, you know, he’s wants to establish you there. They’ll see the solo. Yeah. Right. And the I mean, the reason we’re here today, right, because of our friendship.

00:23:47:12 – 00:24:02:08
And you think you didn’t see the pit guy you saw in the song guy, right? I the new lyrics that that can be sung now because I came out of the pit. Right. And the enemy wants us to stay in the pit. He wants to take us out, you know, make us done.

00:24:02:08 – 00:24:22:05
You know what I mean? For me, it’s realizing that all of us can fall in any area, you know, to think, you know, it will never happen to me. They actually interview 280 of the top Christian leaders who fell about 20 years ago. And at the top of the list was they said it would never happen to me.

00:24:22:06 – 00:24:23:04
It’ll never happen to me.

00:24:23:04 – 00:24:26:07
And I, I don’t know if I touched on that, but because that value will.

00:24:26:07 – 00:24:26:18
Say that.

00:24:26:18 – 00:24:27:00
You.

00:24:27:05 – 00:24:28:15
Well think that.

00:24:28:17 – 00:24:54:09
I. That’s why I put myself in that situation. Because my value was I would never cross that line. Right. And because I had so much surety that I wouldn’t cross that line, I put myself in a situation based on I think that I’ll never do that. Yeah. And I had I been more fearful. Right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And had a proper perspective of how vulnerable we all are.

00:24:54:10 – 00:25:13:10
Right? Right. Even though if you were to talk to me back then, I’m sure I could have just explained that I’m super careful all this sort of stuff. But the bottom line is, if we’re drawing, here’s this, here’s here’s what I’ve learned here, a real big nugget. If I’m drawn to do it and it’s a little off, it’s very powerful.

00:25:13:16 – 00:25:26:11
Yeah. It’s not that it’s not that big a deal. Right. Because what we think is, well, it’s not that big a deal. So if you’re thinking about, you know, I just counsel this girl or I’ll just do this or I’ll do that. And you kind of philosophically, you know, that’s sort of quite robust. Not that big a deal.

00:25:26:16 – 00:25:33:17
Yeah. The fact that you’re wrestling with it and you’re thinking about doing it, it’s a big deal. I mean, it’s it’s dangerous.

00:25:33:17 – 00:25:35:18
All conviction of the spirit is danger.

00:25:35:21 – 00:25:37:00
All right.

00:25:37:01 – 00:25:41:15
And so how do you did your devotional life with the Lord fade away a little bit too, or. That was good.

00:25:41:15 – 00:25:44:11
And no, I was amazing. Yeah. No, I.

00:25:44:11 – 00:25:47:03
Did what you want to stay close. That’s okay.

00:25:47:03 – 00:26:15:19
But the here’s the thing is, the Lord had me on a depth of identity and who I was. So he he really. And it revealed so much. I was I was honestly preaching good messages because I was getting in order for me to sustain. Yeah, right. And just not crumble everything, everything he was infusion me with important truths and principles and dynamics and and yeah, he’s just continue to do that in my, in my life.

00:26:15:19 – 00:26:28:23
So never did I feel a separation other than when I first started going after that happen and I went back into church, it was just a different environment because I started like I.

00:26:29:01 – 00:26:30:15
Tried to look people in the face.

00:26:30:17 – 00:26:48:00
Well, I didn’t go back to my church, of course, but I’m the same now. Going into church, I was just like, it felt different being in this house. So it was a little bit of a struggle of getting back on track where I felt like I was, I was on track again, but but no, I know where desperation I can be.

00:26:48:02 – 00:27:10:09
I just, you know, I, I’ve been a pursuer of Jesus my entire life and honestly, you know, through every single pit I’ve learned and like Paul says and to the Philippians, he says, here’s an old man. He’s in prison. Yeah. And he says these words, I just want to know Jesus more. Think about that here. He is that old, and that’s our Lord resurrection.

00:27:10:09 – 00:27:34:20
And he says, I just want to be found in him. That means when life squeezes, he wants Jesus to come out. Then he says, and I want to be conformed to his death and his resurrection. And what I’ve learned is the process of dying to self is what enacts the power of the resurrection life. Yeah, right. But some of us are pretty hard headed, and there’s things in our flesh that aren’t that easy to kill.

00:27:34:21 – 00:27:41:13
Yeah. And, but once we allow him to kill those things, what’s amazing is the manifest power of this.

00:27:41:13 – 00:28:02:12
A little off topic. I just thought of it, but I’m sure it’s a question on the minds of many, and I’ve I’ve tackled it before in other in my books, I think. But when would a leader who falls like that would they ever be restored to a position of a lead pastor? Or are they, you know, kind of I mean, my thought is a significant the time needs to to go by.

00:28:02:13 – 00:28:23:02
But if God, you know, begins to rebuild that person also depends on the age of the person, I guess. How long, you know, I, I know of pastors who have fallen at 24 out of seminary and God gives them a church at 40 or, you know, after they’ve been broken, humbled. There’s some stances that say, you know, never, ever again or if you’ve ever been divorced, never.

00:28:23:03 – 00:28:24:18
You know, there’s a lot of that out there, too.

00:28:24:19 – 00:28:42:00
The whole thing about disqualifying people for certain things versus the call of God on their life, Jesus, he broke it down. He said, well, if you look on a woman, you commit adultery. So Jesus made it clear it’s a matter of the heart. Yeah. And that’s the beautiful thing, is that God does search off hearts. And second Corinthians chapter three, where he talks about that.

00:28:42:00 – 00:28:54:12
We’re a, an epistle written upon our hearts. So when we unveil our heart and whatever that journey is, I think God knows. The heart knows that if you’re genuine and in what your motives are, why you want to do things.

00:28:54:15 – 00:28:59:13
Did you submit to accountability? Has it been a significant amount of time? And, you know, there’s a lot of things. Yeah.

00:28:59:13 – 00:29:00:20
So so you know, yeah.

00:29:00:20 – 00:29:07:02
For but like these guys not too rough. But these guys it like they fall. And then a year later they’re planning a church like

00:29:07:04 – 00:29:26:04
You know you know that in my story then I would see no way to do that. You know what I mean? Because there’s a lot to there’s a do you get down to the root cause. Yeah, I want to. When you’re a leader and you fail in such a way that that causes that kind of collateral damage, it’s a deep root.

00:29:26:06 – 00:29:44:13
And it’s something that. God, I don’t know, like, oh, man, I came up there and we had a deliverance service. I got delivered from it. Praise the Lord. I’m good to go. I it I’m not saying God can do anything like that. And of course we know that. But in my case, there was there was some, you know, I had to deal with this.

00:29:44:19 – 00:29:59:07
I had to deal with a lot of stuff in my life to really where I feel, you know, healthy and also, you know, the, there’s a lot US leaders can do. We don’t necessarily have to be the guy behind the pills. Right? Yeah.

00:29:59:08 – 00:30:03:00
Is that what you’re doing now? You’re very active in ministry.

00:30:03:02 – 00:30:21:08
And and it’s a lot trying to help other leaders. Right. You learn from my point. Yeah. Right. So the, you know, the best way to to stay out of the situation, don’t get in the pit to begin with. Right. But if you do, you know just know that don’t let it destroy you. And just know that you’re going to get a new song, you know.

00:30:21:10 – 00:30:41:21
And so, you know, I don’t know how much time, how. But to sum up, what I heard from you is first and foremost, confession, repentance. Getting right with the Lord needs to be the priority no matter what the cost. And that was so true because, that relationship restored will be better than trying to hold this position.

00:30:42:00 – 00:30:52:12
And it’s hard. I’m difficult. I’m sure. I mean, I couldn’t even process that. Really? But that is better. Avoid the compromise even from the get go. Even if you’re if you feel conviction and drawn towards something.

00:30:52:14 – 00:31:04:07
Yeah. If you’re thinking it’s not that big of a deal, but you know that you’re you’re going to sign. Yeah. That’s your warning sign. It is a big deal because you’re you’re telling yourself it’s not that big a deal. So that’s you’re like, let your alarm.

00:31:04:09 – 00:31:23:21
And the enemy doesn’t push you off the cliff. He sometimes takes you down one step at a time. And now you’re at the bottom going, how’d I get here? Because you weren’t going to jump off. And that’s what those little compromises are. You know, I think in that list of 280 Christians, and the other thing was 80% counseled women of the opposite sex.

00:31:23:23 – 00:31:28:03
You know, that’s just up. I mean, that’s, I think, standard protocol for for pastors, you know.

00:31:28:05 – 00:31:48:21
Yeah. I didn’t do that. Yeah, I did it. So but the ones that do, you know that I think that’s really dangerous because then it’s hard for the women too, because you become this great guy that listens to. No. Yeah. You need to just think everything is twisted up easy. But the the outcome for all of us really is to glorify God.

00:31:48:21 – 00:32:07:20
That means that we’re a tangible expression of his presence race. And so what I’ve learned, Shane, is that life is more about how we respond to it than what happens to us. And when we learned how to respond and to you’re talking about was I accountable to when I, when I, when I, when I failed when I confessed.

00:32:07:20 – 00:32:13:22
But that was a major, major thing for us. I, you know, I’m an ex-convict, right? Yeah.

00:32:13:22 – 00:32:14:22
Yeah.

00:32:15:00 – 00:32:38:00
There was nothing in me in my natural man that ever says to myself, I think I want to tell myself, you know, just know I know I’m wired opposite completely. And I’m also wired in the way that you can tell me something. And you say, you could tell me something and and, you know, I can put it in a vault inside my brain, in a box.

00:32:38:02 – 00:32:46:04
You don’t have to worry about it. It’s locked up as good. So. Yeah, but I just as a person never, ever telling myself. Yeah, I mean, just.

00:32:46:07 – 00:32:47:08
Don’t telling others. Yeah.

00:32:47:09 – 00:33:03:15
And also I can, I can compartment. I had to be an expert at Kmart compartment or Parliament. Elysium. Yes. Right. Because how to survive in a household when I love my dad and I was sleeping with his wife, you can imagine, you know, become an expert as compartmentalizing.

00:33:03:18 – 00:33:13:18
Yeah. It’s called I forget what it’s called. It’s it’s that term or. Yeah. Disengage or just you almost like split personality even though you’re not. It’s. This is this side of me.

00:33:14:00 – 00:33:23:07
Yes. And it I mean and that probably helped me a lot in my ability to be able to seek the Lord through it. Yeah. Because I just, I was like, you put that in.

00:33:23:08 – 00:33:43:20
You know what? Just it just dawned on me a couple of weeks ago, Wednesday night, we had, a friend of mine, Ex-Felon, gave a testimony. Russell then Rick Ex-Felon gave testimony, and then you’re giving it here. And then tonight Richard’s going to be here, and it it’s like four in a row. Well, I mean, what a blessing as far as God using the least likely.

00:33:43:20 – 00:34:09:04
And I’m drawn towards those who are humble and broke. It’s really hard for me to be around arrogant people that haven’t really experienced that desperation, that they’ve dug themselves out of the pit with God’s help. And because of that, they are gracious, gentle, to be loving, understanding, you know. So that does something to you. It really it’s almost like I don’t want encourage sin, God forbid.

00:34:09:06 – 00:34:18:02
But it’s it’s it’s when we fall. God often uses those times to really, really fine tune and shape our character.

00:34:18:06 – 00:34:35:08
Well, two things I want to comment on is one is all of a sudden I, as I identify with King David, I, I fell absolutely what it says. I said, oh man, says King David, filled with adultery, but yet he was known as a man after God’s own heart. It’s amazing. And he goes all the way through the New Testament.

00:34:35:13 – 00:35:00:04
So that story gave me. Yeah, gave me hope. And, and the other thought that I wanted to share was the, we were talking about, and I just forgot about what the other topic we were talking about, but there the the, Oh, loving much so when I. Oh, so when I got saved, when I got saved at Tracy Penitentiary and I’ll, I’ll kind of maybe use this as kind of a shorter closing thing.

00:35:00:06 – 00:35:21:06
The problem that I had with thinking about my life and Jesus was if there was a God, I was convinced that there was. He would never want anything to do with me. Yeah, right. And I remember when I went to that prison chapel and I was like in the middle halfway through, right in the middle there, and they started singing this little kids song.

00:35:21:08 – 00:35:41:09
And it was, yes, Jesus Loves me. Yeah. Yes. And this I just started my prisons. I’m 21, 20 years old, something like that. Right. And I’m like trying to process what it takes to be in prison and convict guy. I’m in this chapel and all these convicts around, and somehow I knew that was a little kid song. Yeah.

00:35:41:09 – 00:35:50:22
And the first thing that comes to my mind is these guys are singing a little kid song, right? But then I started singing it. Yes, Jesus loves.

00:35:51:00 – 00:35:52:09
Yeah, the love of God.

00:35:52:09 – 00:36:21:23
Right. And it just like it poked my heart a little bit, right? Like he loves me. And then I sang it again. Yes. Jesus loves me here. Yes. Yeah. And all of a sudden, this heart, for the first time ever, Billy started believe in Jesus, loved me. Yes. You know. And the power of that love that will reach down and grab Ahold of you.

00:36:21:23 – 00:36:42:19
And that was a day in July of 1988 that I went forward, and I received Christ in my life. And but it was that realization that Jesus love me and it’s that great love that I think keeps you so desperate. Yeah. And so no matter was, you know, all the stuff I’ve done as a young man up to that point.

00:36:42:19 – 00:36:50:12
And I used to man, when I my crimes at that time, I used to manufacture speed, I was crystal clean, all that sort of stuff. So I might sell.

00:36:50:14 – 00:36:51:17
A balls.

00:36:51:19 – 00:37:17:12
No pounds for me. Oh, God. But that whole lifestyle and all the crazy other stuff associated with that lifestyle, that was me. That was my identity. So there is nothing about my life that I thought there was a God in heaven that he would want anything to do with me. Right. And so but, you know, when you fail as a leader and, and you and you hurt people that you really care about, you really love, right?

00:37:17:12 – 00:37:36:13
And you just your feel so low. Riders like, man and you feel like you’re not, you’re just stuck. And then you realize that, yeah, he’s not done with me yet. His love and his grace, he’ll pull me out now and pulls me out of that muck and mire his arms. Not too short to pull me out. He’ll set my feet on a rock.

00:37:36:15 – 00:37:39:09
It’s my ears, not too heavy, I can hear.

00:37:39:11 – 00:37:48:03
He establishes my goings. He’s given me and he’s blessed me where I’m at. Like I said, the World Outreach is an amazing church.

00:37:48:05 – 00:37:50:18
Where can people find you if they Gary Hornsby.

00:37:50:18 – 00:37:58:12
Oh, easy. Just just type the names out. Real popular. So you just type on Instagram, Facebook or whatever. Okay. But I attend the World Outreach.

00:37:58:14 – 00:38:03:17
And I would encourage, you know, even speaking at men’s events, you know, we’ve got people here are leaders that watch.

00:38:03:17 – 00:38:06:03
This like, yeah, the main things I do. Yeah, we.

00:38:06:03 – 00:38:25:09
Want to get you out here soon to as well. So all right Gary, I want to, you know, just end with a thought as I’m thinking about all this is we can still hold to the truth of God’s word. We can still pursue holiness, hate, sin, but we can also still love people and show mercy and grace and find that balance.

00:38:25:13 – 00:38:42:23
You know, that balance does exist because you see some people, it’s all about grace and mercy. It it doesn’t even matter if you fall, no big deal. But then you have the other side that that’s so rigid. And, if you fall, you’re never allowed back in the doors of the church. You know that neither extreme is is good.

00:38:43:04 – 00:39:00:19
Here’s a principle that I hope everybody gets when you pursue Jesus, you find the real you. Yes. Remember that promise? This absolutely may cost you everything. Yeah, but you’re going to find the real you. And what I love about my life right now.

00:39:00:21 – 00:39:02:15
I’m so real, Gary.

00:39:02:17 – 00:39:18:18
During not I’m not modifying. Lord blessed me with another wife. I don’t modify me at all in any circumstance other than saying Holy Spirit. What’s my responsibility? Yes, I try to follow that as my guideline. That’s a line. That’s my that’s my daily calibration.

00:39:18:20 – 00:39:37:09
Because what happens is you’re pursuing him. All the dross is removed. The refiner’s fire. Right. And the real you comes out because you’re open, you’re honest, you’re transparent. You’re not trying to hide things. And because of that, here’s the real me. Jesus loves me. Just no matter how I am, he he restores and he holds me all together.

00:39:37:09 – 00:39:56:07
So, anyway, appreciate you coming out here to do this. And, again, this is Pastor’s Unplugged. Make sure to subscribe. I had all the different platforms iTunes, pod, beam, YouTube, Rumble. I think there’s 16 or so different platforms. And then obviously contact Gary if you need someone to come speak at a men’s event, I can tell it would be a great message.

00:39:56:07 – 00:40:00:08
Very encouraging for the man. So signing off. Thank you for watching this episode.