Why Homeschool in a Tiny House?

By Published on August 5, 2017

Oftentimes a friend will ask me, “Have you begun homeschooling yet?” Our kids turned five, three and nine months old this summer, so I know they’re mainly talking about our young son Rig, the oldest.

I think what they’re trying to ask is, am I starting to deliberately, methodically teach him any reading, writing or math? Have I chosen a curriculum? Do we have a routine? Does he have a desk?

But I usually stand there a little befuddled for a moment or two, finally responding with one of several mischievous responses:

Right now, and probably for a few more years (gasp!), the plan is to let them just be inquisitive kids.

“No, there’s really no start date in mind.”

Or: “You know what they say, better late than early!”

Or, if I’m feeling particularly cheeky, “Begin? In a way, we’ve always been homeschooling. Kids start learning at birth!”

But that doesn’t mean my husband and I are lax about our children’s education. We just have a different vision as to what’s beneficial and best.

Right now, and probably for a few more years (gasp!), the plan is to let them just be inquisitive kids. Playing, exploring nature, storytelling, singing, asking a million questions, and listening to music, adults conversing and the sounds of life. Along the way comes a natural learning of family expectations and a developing of self-discipline through our modeling and guidance.

Later on, there will be musical instruments to practice, Bible verses to memorize, math problems to solve, books to read and discuss and exploding Alka-Seltzer volcanoes to clean up. But I’m convinced that this will all unfold as each child needs in such a beautiful way that even the best curriculum planner couldn’t have orchestrated it more seamlessly.

Right now, we have the freedom to homeschool, and to keep our young preschoolers out of school, as we see fit.

Why would someone choose this, and what does it look like?

We live on a farm in a tiny house, so our lives are simple. Gathering eggs, counting them, sorting them. “An araucana laid this green one!” exclaims my daughter, Firebell.

Rig takes it upon himself to count by twos in 12-egg cartons, then by threes in 18-egg cartons. And with the bigger egg flats, “Four rows of five eggs makes 20!” He grins proudly.

Girl With Binoculars, Little Hiker, Kid Exploring, Wonder, God's Creation, Adventure

We read a couple pages from the richly illustrated book Dinotopia about the people of Treetown hoisting themselves up into the canopy with baskets and ropes. Tracing with our fingers where the ropes on the page go, we talk a little about what a pulley is. Emptying out a couple baskets holding lemons and avocados, the kids hoist stuffed animals into their high chairs with string for ropes, solving problems of balance, slack and weight as the baskets sway and tip.

“Mommy, what if you had no arms?” Firebell asks me one day during lunch. I smile. “Well, I’d use my feet!” I say, and attempt to show them how I’d put a spoon between my toes and lift my foot to feed myself. Then I find a video of an inspiring mom who really lives life to the fullest without arms, and the kids love it.

Watercolors, Play Doh, crayons, colored pencils. Showing Rig the successive steps to write the letters in his name. Rig showing me a drawing of his ten-legged honey spider and marveling how the oscillating fan with its concentric metal circles looks just like a web.

Rig dictating letters to me, thanking grandparents for gifts and signing his name. Showing him where the stamp goes, and walking it down to the mailbox with him. Reading The Seven Little Postmen and discussing the intriguing way the mail is gathered, sorted and delivered.

Reading our comic book-style Picture Bible together on the couch. Answering unending deep questions on life, death and how tall Goliath really was.

Girl Playing with Ladybug, Insect, Exploring, Adventure, Childhood, Kid, Wonder

Relating to nature as an extension of the home. Flitting around as ladybugs, building dens as foxes, or sitting on eggs as chickens after witnessing these things just outside.

Singing, humming, tapping, drumming. Our rendition of I’m a Little Teapot turns into Mammi’s Little Baby Loves Shortenin’ Bread, with the kids squealing and me stomping my foot as the bass drum and slapping my leg as the snare. Boom chick boom chick boom chick boom chick…

Listening to instrumental music echoing times of old: Praetorius’ peasant festivals, Vivaldi’s country seasons, the Budos Band’s chill palm tree nights.

These things don’t take a lot of money, and there are no lesson plans. What’s vital is caring for their bodies and minds with sleep and good food and creating an atmosphere that’s calm and conducive to a natural, free flow of activities.

Times of rest and books, times of creative play. Times of eating and chatting at the table. Times of outside work, laundry, cooking and chickens. Times of playing with each other while letting Mommy nurse the baby and write this post on her phone.

I truly believe that any parent who can talk with, spend time with, and seek out good people and opportunities for their children can successfully homeschool.

I also believe that the benefits of homeschooling are vast and far-reaching.

Our goals for the kids are just things that have been taught for thousands of years without any state-run education.

Our far-reaching goals are many and specific to us.

In essence, they boil down to a desire for our kids to have literacy in the realms of:

  • Spiritual life: through Bible study, prayer, sermons and church engagement with the aim of spiritual maturity and the fruits of the Spirit.
  • Nutrition: through practice in traditional, whole foods-cooking with the aim of lifelong health.
  • Finance: through study of economics and personal finance with the aim of wise stewardship of resources.
  • Love and understanding of people and creation through history, literature, science, music, art, travel, communication and the outdoors.
  • Problem solving and practical skill competency through math, technology, home and vehicle repair, caring for animals and plants, starting a business, and organizing outings and purchases.

This all may sound like a lofty mountain to summit, but honestly, I don’t lose any sleep over it. These things are the natural outcome of kids living in an engaged family and community and are things that have been taught for thousands of years without any state-run education.

So when someone inquires whether homeschool is in session here at the tiny house, perhaps I should respond, “Yes! Always. We all are learning, and the learning never stops.”

Because it’s true. My husband has a sermon playing in the garage while he figures out how to make a railing for the loft, which is probably the thousandth thing he has had to learn this year. And I have a motley stack of books on Jesus, macroeconomics and the Supreme Court on the wood stove by my chair.

My phone currently has tabs on how to make a barn quilt and what to do with chokecherries. Tomorrow I’m calling another tiny house friend to share, laugh and problem-solve our lives together.

The beauty is that life is the freest, truest classroom there is. It is ours to receive the gift and resist anything that would stifle this freedom.

 

 

This article was originally published on FEE.org.

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  • Evelyn Bennett

    I loved this article. I find it very honest as well as encouraging. Thank you

  • Mensa Member

    I’m a pubic school teacher and am also a supporter of home schooling.

    This surprises some people.

    But women like this author are one reason why. I suspect that her kids will get a very good education. It’s a great option, especially for younger kids.

    But some home schooler movement-types get inflexible about it and that can be a problem.

    It so much depends on the child. Some children would do better at a public school. I’ve seen this, especially, in older kids. Homeschooling was great when counting eggs was enough math. But then the child grew up and needed advanced calculus and organized sports. And some kids need the structure of a school and a some independence from mom (usually) and dad.

    Another problem I’ve seen is rare but serious — abusive parents using home school to avoid authorities. In no way am I saying that this is the author or most home school parents. But, it’s a real thing and very very bad. I strongly believe that home school families need to have home checks by social workers.

    But, with those two caveats, home schooling can be great!

  • lighthouseseeker

    I love what you’re saying here. Wow, if only I could begin with another bunch of little chicks. At times my classroom might have looked like this, I was influenced by a teacher in Australia, her book, that is. I have no idea anymore what her name was, that was back in 1962 when I began teaching in a tiny farming community in west Fresno County, CA. The give and take flow of the home setting, activities happening there and interactions with the community are the building blocks of a healthy civilization. And love is at it’s foundation. No state checkups please…

  • glenbo

    I think homeschooling is an excellent idea.
    No child will ever be taught the lie of evolution.

    • Boris

      Packing a child’s head with the lies of creationism is child abuse. But go ahead we’ll always need people for minimum wage jobs. Every Christian college and university in the world that teaches life sciences teaches evolution. So if or when a Christian child attends a Christian college they’re going to find out their parents not only lied to them about science, they’re uneducated sociopaths. This is why 3 out of 4 Christian college students reject their faith before they graduate. It’s not evolution, it’s the lies creationists tell about it that makes them realize all they’ve been told about Jesus is a bunch of nonsense as well. Because it is. No such person as Jesus Christ ever existed. Evolution is based on evidence. A belief in Jesus Christ is not.

      • Shaquille Harvey

        “No such person as Jesus Christ ever existed.” That’s not what credible historians say.

        • Boris

          You’re wrong. Historians know the Bible is not historically accurate.

          • Shaquille Harvey

            1. Which historians would that be ?
            2. That still does not change the fact that no credible historian would accept your statement that Jesus never existed.

          • Boris

            “1. Which historians would that be ?”
            I’ll name just the ones I have actually read make this claim but there are others I could name. Thomas Thompson, Bruno Bauer, Edward Carpenter, Albert Kaltoff, Arthur Drews, J.C. Stendal, Tom Harpur, Emil Felden, Charles Virolleaud, Ryner Couchoud, Theodor Gaster, Gerald Massey, Alvin Boyd Kuhn,Emilio Bossi, Georg Brandes, John M. Robertson, G.R.S Mead, W.B. Smith and Edward Gibbon who wrote “The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire” and wrote about the Josephus forgery done by Eusebius.
            “2. That still does not change the fact that no credible historian would accept your statement that Jesus never existed.”
            Uh, yes it does.

          • Shaquille Harvey

            1) Almost none of those people are historians and several like Kuhn, Massey and Harpur are academic frauds.

            2) No it doesn’t.

          • Boris

            Ad homenim. A logical fallacy. If Christians could recognize logical fallacies there would not be any Christians. It’s easy to make baseless assertions like that. You’ve never read a word any of these people wrote. You should know that assertions made without evidence will be dismissed without evidence. So either make you case with facts that prove it or crawl back under your rock you slimy, ignorant liar.

          • Shaquille Harvey

            How is it an ad hominem attack if questioning and addressing the validity of someone’s credibility on the subjective; for example you state someone like Gerald Massey who most well trusted ancient antiquity scholars don’t take seriously at all. I also spoke to someone who deals in this subject and with has dealt with many other historians. He states;
            “Truth is not an ad hominem. I have read the works of most of those people. Several are lunatics. I have detailed articles on Kuhn, Massey, and Harpur and have addressed more briefly Thompson, Drews, Bauer, Robsertson, and Mead. Your name dropping is unimpressive to the well read.”

          • Boris

            Your appeals to authority are another logical fallacy. You haven’t told us why any of these people are “not taken seriously.” What is it they reported that is inaccurate? Please tell us all Ms. Well Read. I’ll tell you what it is. These people have found no evidence to support the Christian superstitions of the supposed “scholars” who poor mouth them. Because they do not believe Jesus existed is the ONLY reason they are supposedly not taken seriously. However it is a lie that they are not taken seriously. In the last decade the Christian apologetic cottage industry has cranked out dozens of books like the Case for Christ which only goal throughout is to try to make the case that Jesus Christ actually did exist. The biggest hole in your case however is it doesn’t take a scholar or historian to know that outside of the Bible there is no evidence whatsoever that Jesus Christ or any of his merry men actually existed. Not one historian who was alive during the first part of the First Century (and I can list 50 of them) wrote a word about Jesus Christ, any apostles or any trace of the Christian superstition in Palestine. And it doesn’t take a historian to smell a rat and realize that Christianity is a hoax, a fraud especially when we see the level of intelligence and dishonesty among its adherents.

          • Shaquille Harvey

            Here is what my friend who deals in this area has to say to your statement;
            “I did say why: they’re lunatics. And I said I had articles on some of them. Can he read?

            Now he wants to appeal to that Remsbuerg’s List crap? Been there done that. Tell him you’re done and that he needs to show up on TheologyWeb for me to beat him senseless, unless he’s a coward. Enough of this intermediary stuff — you and I have better things to do.”

          • Boris

            That doesn’t cut it. Why are they lunatics? What exactly did they write that makes them lunatics? Answer: they reported that there is no evidence that Jesus Christ or any of the apostles ever existed. That’s the it. Now I’m going to go over to theology web and mock and make fun of their religious delusions just like I did to you. The fact that you couldn’t find the studies that prove atheists are a lot smarter Christians proves the studies are correct. What the hell do you want with this white man’s red neck religion anyway. Why don’t you just go pray to a rock like you ancestors did?

          • Shaquille Harvey

            Here is what he states to you;
            “Tell him to relate what his username there is so I can smack him and so we all know who to laugh at.”

            Also you didn’t cite the study that supposedly proves the/a point here. “White redneck religion” you do realise Christianity began in the Middle East don’t you ?!

          • Boris

            Christianity began right where it sits today. In Rome. My user name is Boris the Atheist. Tell that punk come on with it. I’m going to humiliate him and he’ll wish he never shot off his big mouth. I can see you weren’t up to the challenge. Boy.

          • Shaquille Harvey

            1. When credible sources do you have for this
            2. He’s been waiting, he wanted your name first so I can tell him.

          • Boris

            Your hero Frank Turkel sends his wife out to work to support his lazy uneducated and unemployable carcass while he sits home playing around on the computer all day. What kind of man does that? Mostly tranny chasers. He’s the most financially unsuccessful Christian apologist ever. He always needs money. Have you ever seen this clown? He’s hideous. When people find themselves unattractive to the opposite sex they very often turn to religion or to Jesus. Now we know the Church existed before the New Testimonies were redacted by Eusebius. And we know the Church is gay and it always has been. So it’s pretty clear that the perverts who wrote the New Testament portrayed Paul and Jesus as being quite obviously gay. A Jew who doesn’t marry in those days was gay. Rabbis were always married. We know that genitals are feet in the Bible and Jesus loved to wash his disciple’s feet. It’s pretty obvious what is going on there. And of course Jesus had one particular disciple that he loved in that oh so special way Christian men love each other. Turkel seems to have this sick twisted imaginary homoerotic relationship with this dominant male authority figure who has never ever soiled himself by sleeping with a woman. You can see Turkel, “I’ve been bad Jesus. punish me Jesus. I’ve been a bad boy Jesus. I need a spanking Jesus.” It’s just so sick. There’s plenty of literature, in fact at least two whole books that made the case Paul was gay as well. It’s just so obviously a gay religion as are most of its male adherents.

          • Boris

            Why are you cruising a gay white superamacist website anyway? That’s what that is you know.

          • Shaquille Harvey

            “Gay white supremacist website” are you on something?

          • Boris

            Are there white American Christians who are not white supremacists? Oh please who are trying to fool? Racism is dead except in religion. Look at the churches on Sunday morning.

          • Shaquille Harvey

            There is some who are racist but what is the basis and grounds for thier racism then ? You can also find non theists who are and have been racists. What about church on Sunday mornings?

          • Boris

            The only grounds for racism or xenophobia is that those things are built into our genes. Our hunter gatherer ancestors were naturally suspicious of humans who were different than they were. For example homo sapiens would have naturally suspicious of homo erectus or Neanderthals. Our ancestors probably helped these other hominids go extinct and we have pretty good evidence they did. However our capacity for altruism and to acquire learned behavior often cancels other natural inclinations. So really there’s no basis or grounds for racism in our civilization today. It’s stupid. Church on Sunday morning in America is pretty much racially segregated. The services are usually a lot different too.

          • Boris

            Well your hero Fascist Frank Turkel banned me from his blog. It’s kind of funny because every time I went there I was the only person on the site. Turkel is as popular as a malignant tumor and his site is a ghost town. I posted my challenge and not one person stepped up to the plate. Not Turkel, not anybody. Theology Web. Theology isn’t even a subject, it’s the study of nothing. Turkel doesn’t know the first thing about the Bible or Christianity. I’m pretty sure that you don’t either.

          • Shaquille Harvey

            Facist how ? He has every right to monitor his blog.

            “It’s kind of funny because every time I went there I was the only person on the site. Turkel is as popular as a malignant tumor and his site is a ghost town. I posted my challenge and not one person stepped up to the plate. Not Turkel, not anybody. Theology Web. ”
            Really ?! Because the last I checked you tried to refuse to debate Holding and posted very little in response. There were also others on there too.

            “Theology isn’t even a subject, it’s the study of nothing. Turkel doesn’t know the first thing about the Bible or Christianity. I’m pretty sure that you don’t either.”
            Yet you you claim this but you yourself don’t have a clue on the subject either. Even more to the point you don’t even refer to actual credible historians, who are not even taken seriously anymore and not too mention other statements that are rejected by modern day historical and biblical scholars, despite background.

          • Boris

            I was the only guest for an hour on Dr. Michael Brown’s radio program back on September 17th of 2008. If it’s not archived I can Email it to you. Before they booked me on the show I had to mail his assistant copies of my credentials which I admit are not very impressive but a least I have them. What can you tell me about neuter plural nouns in Koine Greek? I was invited to go on my good friend Steve Nobel’s radio program about a year ago. Gary DeMar did three I think it was two hour shows just reading my Emails. It was great because I was trying to get a book published back then. Turkel is an amateur and I debated him a long time ago. I asked for proof that any prophecy of his choice was actually written before the events it supposedly predicted took place and not afterwards as most of us know they were. He folded immediately and banned me from his site for life. Now I have been banned for life twice from Theocracy Web. Proof of life after death at least in the Internet. Actually the many scholars who have said that Jesus Christ never existed are taken very, VERY seriously by the Christian propaganda cottage industry. About 30 books have come out in the last 10 years such as the Case for Christ which set out to prove only that Jesus Christ actually existed. If this was such a slam dunk none of these books would have been written and you know it. The scholars on my side are much more trustworthy because unlike the fairy dust believing “scholars” on your side they do not have a religious agenda or personal religious beliefs that keep them from being unbiased. Of course lying believers are going to try to discredit real honest historical research because they’ve never done any themselves. Sorry Dude, your “scholars” believe in fairies, magic and all sorts of supernatural claptrap. The only people they’ve ever discredited are themselves. Jesus Christ never existed. And none of the apostles are mentioned by any secular writers at all. Not one by anyone. They represent the constellations in this solar myth just as the twelve tribes of Israel represent the constellations in the Torah which is also a solar myth. Please do not insult my intelligence by telling me that you know better. You don’t.

          • Boris

            I carpet bombed that Theology Web years ago. A few people thanked me for helping them see the light and now they are atheists. They call me Faith Crusher. In fact I planted a little tiny seed of doubt in your mind and it’s going to grow and grow and eventually you will be an atheist. Oh it’s true. Don’t fight it or your de-conversion will be a long and painful one.

          • Boris

            NewsScience
            Religious people are less intelligent than atheists, according to analysis of scores of scientific studies stretching back over decades
            Study found ‘a reliable negative relation between intelligence and religiosity’ in 53 out of 63 studies

          • Shaquille Harvey

            Can you site the study ?

          • Boris

            Google: Religious people are less intelligent than atheists
            You’ll find plenty of them

          • Shaquille Harvey

            Yes but what source, please cite if possible in PDF format!?

      • a.Christian.for.Ron.Paul

        @disqus_ElxVJPCjj8:disqus LOL, you have no clue what you’re talking about. You can’t even spout factually correct information, let alone come to a proper conclusion.

        1) Scripture is the Truth. Deal with it. Its account of creation is evidenced in our world today and is scientifically valid. It’s brainwashed fools like you that spoon feed on psuedo-science and can’t think for themselves.

        2) I don’t believe in evolution and work well above minimum wage. I’m able to support my family on one income. I’m also on a career path that has unlimited opportunities. But, please, do tell me how I’ll be working at minimum wage as an adult.

        Our church, which is of significant size, doesn’t believe in evolution and the members (and their offspring) are generally working well above minimum wage. But, please, do inform us of your ignorance.

        3) “Every Christian college and university in the world that teaches life sciences teaches evolution” is factually false.

        4) My whole life I attended schools that have taught evolution, all the way through college. I majored in biology, where my classes taught evolution non-stop. Did I fall away from the faith? No. Did I buy into evolution’s nonsense? No. Did I reject Jesus? On the contrary, I’ve grown closer to Him through it all!

        5) Do you realize that there’s more historical evidence for Jesus existing as a person than there is for any Roman emperor? Do you realize that virtually all historians on the subject, including unbelievers, state that the historicity of Jesus is effectively certain.

        But, please, do tell us about your imaginary world where Jesus didn’t exist. And, and while you’re at it, tell us how scientifically accurate your statement is. I love to be amused.

        6) Evolution is based on pseudo science and is riddled with absurdities.

        • Boris

          1) Scripture is the Truth. Deal with it. Its account of creation is evidenced in our world today and is scientifically valid. It’s brainwashed fools like you that spoon feed on psuedo-science and can’t think for themselves.
          First of calling religious claptrap and fairy tales “scripture” is a feeble attempt at distorting reality by distorting the language. But you don’t even realize you’re doing it. Changing the language is part of your brainwashing. Historical narratives never contain dialog, people all speaking to each other in complete sentences. Historical narratives do not contain tales of the supernatural. If the biblical account of creation were scientifically valid then how come scientists don’t buy it? Find me a legitimate scientist who thinks the first woman was made from a rib or that there even was a first woman. The study of genetics shows that there were never fewer than 12,000 homo sapiens on this planet. There’s no such thing as the first two of anything. The change from predecessor species to more modern ones is so gradual it is almost imperceptible.
          “2) I don’t believe in evolution and work well above minimum wage………
          Saying you don’t believe in evolution is no different than saying you don’t believe in Geometry. It’s ridiculous. You either understand evolution or you don’t. Evolution is the most useful, most productive, longest standing, best established science there is. Evolutionary Theory is considered to be the model scientific theory because it is better established than Cosmological Theory, Relativity, Atomic Theory or any other scientific theory. In science a theory is an explanation of the facts. Common descent is a fact. Look it up. The Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection explains the fact of common descent.
          3) “Every Christian college and university in the world that teaches life sciences teaches evolution” is factually false.
          Name it and claim it. Name a Christian college or university that teaches life sciences and does not teach evolution. Don’t ignore this challenge.
          “4) My whole life I attended schools that have taught evolution, all the way through college. I majored in biology, where my classes taught evolution non-stop. Did I fall away from the faith? No. Did I buy into evolution’s nonsense? No. Did I reject Jesus? On the contrary, I’ve grown closer to Him through it all!”
          I’m pretty sure I can prove that is a lie. What is the mechanism that keeps microevolution from becoming macroevolution? Don’t avoid the question.
          “5) Do you realize that there’s more historical evidence for Jesus existing as a person than there is for any Roman emperor?”
          Name it and claim it. What evidence exactly are you talking about?
          “Do you realize that virtually all historians on the subject, including unbelievers, state that the historicity of Jesus is effectively certain.”
          That isn’t true and it’s a logical fallacy known as an Appeal to Authority. If Christians could recognize logical fallacies they wouldn’t be Christians.
          “But, please, do tell us about your imaginary world where Jesus didn’t exist. And, and while you’re at it, tell us how scientifically accurate your statement is. I love to be amused.”
          We have no hard evidence at all, a tomb, a cross, anything like that, that could even hint that Jesus Christ or any of his merry men ever existed. At least we have Caesar on a coin and Alexander’s words etched on a rock with a date on it. We have multiple sources that attest to their existence as well as actions. We have no evidence like that for the existence of Jesus. No history writers alive during the first part of the First Century mention Jesus or any disciples or any Christians in Palestine. All we have are the gospel accounts and we have no witness to their existence until 170-180 CE. Mark served as the common element between Matthew and Luke and gave the main source for both of them. Of Mark’s 666 verses, some 600 appear in Matthew, some 300 in Luke. Mark is what is called in literary criticism an omniscient author. He tells about things and conversations that happened when no one is around. So none of these writers could have been eyewitnesses and no honest Bible scholar has ever claimed the gospel writers were eyewitnesses. We know the Church had already existed for a while before any of the NT texts were forged. The Church was competing with other cults and religions for converts, their money and their young boys. The Church produced texts that supposedly gave them a direct connection to God. The most obvious fraud, hoax, ruse whatever, ever pulled on the moronic masses and its own self. The Church today may not even realize what fraudsters the early church fathers really were. But a lot of us do know and now so do you.
          “6) Evolution is based on pseudo science and is riddled with absurdities.”
          When you start with a conclusion like there is a God or there is purposeful design and then set out to prove that conclusion accepting only evidence that supports your conclusion and throwing out everything else you’re doing pseudo science. This is what the Intelligent Design Magic movement is doing, pseudo science. Pseudo science produces no results unless confusing an already scientifically ignorant American public is your goal. Natural Selection was discovered and by several scientists simultaneously but working separately. Evolution is a discovery. Intelligent Design Magic is an invention, a human invention and on the scale of stupid human inventions in ranks right behind the Christianity trinity which is the dumbest human invention ever. You never studied biology. And like most Christians you probably haven’t read much of the Bible either.

          • a.Christian.for.Ron.Paul

            1) Wrong, but nice try. “Historical narratives never contain dialog” is something that sounds nice in your imaginary world, but reality says otherwise. If you think you’re right, quote one authoritative source that agrees with you. You won’t be able to.

            You asked: “If the biblical account of creation were scientifically valid then how come scientists don’t buy it?”… many scientists do buy it. Most are indoctrinated like you, however.

            You requested: “Find me a legitimate scientist who thinks the first woman was made from a rib or that there even was a first woman.”

            Sure, here are 5 to get you started:
            Dr Raymond Damadian, inventor of the MRI machine
            Dr John Baumgardner, geophysicist and space physicist
            D James Allan, geneticist
            Dr Markus Blietz, astrophysicists
            Dr Ian Macreadie, microbiologist

            Care to try the “no true Scotsman” fallacy?

            2) OK, so you were refuted about the minimum wage. Now, you’re stating this silly nonsense:
            “Evolution is the most useful, most productive, longest standing, best established science there is.”

            Are you trolling? I can’t take you seriously here, especially from a self-claimed “scientist”.

            That’s a scientifically absurd statement, even for a secularist. Do you realize the concept of “evolution” is from only the mid-1800’s? Do you realize that there are centuries of HARD science discoveries prior to then?

            Take for example, Johannes Kepler’s laws of planetary motion in the 1600’s, Anton van Leeuwenhoek’s microscopy discovery in the 1600’s, Newton’s three laws of motion in the 1600’s, and Boyle’s law.

            In the 1700’s, Antoine Lavoisier’s law of conservation of mass

            In the pre-1850’s, Joule’s law of conservation of energy, Georg Ohm’s “Ohm’s law”, Alessandro Volta’s many important electrical discoveries (not including inventions).

            Wow, now you say:
            “Evolutionary Theory is considered to be the model scientific theory because it is better established than Cosmological Theory, Relativity, Atomic Theory or any other scientific theory.”

            It’s clear at this point that you have 0 clue what you’re talking about.

            3) Four to get you started:
            Liberty University
            Pensacola Christian College
            Bob Jones University
            Patrick Henry College

            Recant your statement 🙂

            4) You can’t prove my statement is a lie, because it’s not a lie 🙂

            As to your test, from an evolution point of view, there’s theoretically no mechanism that keeps microevolution from becoming macroevolution. Changes happen over time.

            If after the changes a decedent is a radically different “type”, for example the ancestor was a double celled organism and then millions of years later it’s a complex, multi-celled organism that has four legs, a beak, a voice, and vertebrae, that would be considered macroevolution that occurred.

            If 10 years goes by and some leopards go from having a black spotted pattern to green squares, that would be considered microevolution. If 1,000 years down the line, the decedents formed two distinct groups where members of one group couldn’t produce fertile offspring with the other, there would now be two separate species. This would still be considered microevolution, since there isn’t a radically different “type” of animal (in the same way a donkey isn’t radically different than a horse).

            But either way, whether I get your question right or wrong, my original statement about myself is indeed true.

            5) The Biblical manuscripts and non-Christians’ accounts, like Josephus’ account and Tacitus’s account.

            Umm, the statement is true. Just because you deny the facts, doesn’t make your statement “true”. As you say, “Name it and claim it”. Name several scholars in this area that agree with your statement.

            And, you’re wrong on Appeal to Authority. Not every appeal to authority is fallacious. Even if it were, your own arguments would be fallacious. For example, your original post appealed to “colleges” and your reply appealed to “scientists”.

            Oh man, there’s so much wrong with the rest of your comment in #5 that I don’t have the time to answer it all. I’ll focus on the main premise though.

            Do you realize that manuscripts with writing on it are as “hard” of evidence as a rock with writing on it and coins with writings on it?

            Based on “and we have no witness to their existence until 170-180 CE”, it sounds like you haven’t heard of Tacitus. He was a Roman historian (and Senator) born in the mid first Century and mentioned Jesus in his writings in the early second Century, more than 50 years prior to your “all we have are the gospels”.

            By the way, Jesus’ tomb is empty. I’m not sure what you’re expecting to find there. He is risen! 🙂

            6) Have you considered applying your reasoning to yourself?
            “When you start with a conclusion like there is NO God and then set out to prove that conclusion accepting only evidence that supports your conclusion and throwing out everything else you’re doing pseudo science.”

            For your statement of “You never studied biology.”… come on… prove it. As you like to say, claim it. You’ve made a statement, now prove it. LOL, I have bachelor’s degree in biology, but according to you I’ve never studied biology.

            As to:
            “And like most Christians you probably haven’t read much of the Bible either.”

            Most Christians (I’m not talking about nominal Christians), that have access to the Bible and can read, have read much of it. Also, I’ve read through the Bible, have some of it memorized, and read it daily 🙂 But, you’ve made so many false assumptions already, what’s one more on your list?

            Have a nice day.

        • Boris

          “1) Wrong, but nice try. “Historical narratives never contain dialog” is something that sounds nice in your imaginary world, but reality says otherwise. If you think you’re right, quote one authoritative source that agrees with you. You won’t be able to.”

          I don’t give a rip about your “authoritative sources.” That ain’t how it works, it’s a logical fallacy to appeal to authority. You people cannot open your yaps without exposing your lack of critical thinking skills. To refute my claim you need to produce an historical narrative that contains mostly dialog, people all speaking to each other in complete sentences and a few talking animals and spirit beings as well. Good luck with that.
          Scientists roll up their sleeves and do experiments and make demonstrations. They don’t rely on “authoritative sources” when they need to prove something. You have the burden of proof here, not me. Get to work Scientist. Let’s see what you can come up with. Or I call CHECKMATE.

          You requested: “Find me a legitimate scientist who thinks the first woman was made from a rib or that there even was a first woman.”
          Sure, here are 5 to get you started:
          Dr Raymond Damadian, inventor of the MRI machine
          Dr John Baumgardner, geophysicist and space physicist
          D James Allan, geneticist
          Dr Markus Blietz, astrophysicists
          Dr Ian Macreadie, microbiologist
          I wish I had a dollar for every time I’ve seen those names posted by some creationist loon. I could counter with 500 scientists named Steve who disagree but what’s the point? You can have that one. The rib woman story was debunked a long time ago. My parents are Jewish, you’re misunderstanding the story. The snake is not Satan. There’s no Satan in the Torah.
          “Care to try the “no true Scotsman” fallacy?”
          No we let you Christians have that one when we remind you that Adolf Hitler was a devout Christian responsible for the deaths of 11 million non-Christians in the last Christian Crusade.
          “2) OK, so you were refuted about the minimum wage. Now, you’re stating this silly nonsense:”
          Not really I have tried to work with home schooled kids and it’s almost impossible in most cases. State colleges can’t admit students that don’t have any critical thinking skills and know absolutely nothing about science. Other than it debunks their parent’s religion.
          “Are you trolling? I can’t take you seriously here, especially from a self-claimed “scientist”.
          We’ll see if you’re a scientist. Keep blabbing.
          That’s a scientifically absurd statement, even for a secularist. Do you realize the concept
          of “evolution” is from only the mid-1800’s? Do you realize that there are centuries of….
          “Living creatures arose from the moist element as it was evaporated by the sun. Man was like another animal, namely a fish, in the beginning.” (c.610-546BCE), Greek philosopher, journalist, and media personality. Proto-Darwinian of the Year 561. We’ve known life evolves for a long time. It was the mechanism for this that Wallace and Darwin and a few others discovered all about the same time.
          HARD science discoveries prior to then?
          Yeah “HARD science.” Wow stop throwing those big terms around. You’ll only confuse yourself further.
          Wow, now you say:
          “Evolutionary Theory is considered to be the model scientific theory because it is better established than Cosmological Theory, Relativity, Atomic Theory or any other scientific theory.”
          Prove it isn’t. You’ll get a Nobel Prize. But that hasn’t happened yet and we both know it isn’t going to.
          “It’s clear at this point that you have 0 clue what you’re talking about.
          3) Four to get you started:
          Liberty University
          Pensacola Christian College
          Bob Jones University
          Patrick Henry College
          Recant your statement :)”
          Bob Jones! ROFL! These are Bible colleges and none of them are accredited to teach life sciences nor do any of them offer degrees in science. Thanks for proving my point. FAIL
          The fact is that all the other Christian schools do teach evolution and have for over a century. The donors at Wheaton College don’t like it. Too bad truth wins out.
          “But either way, whether I get your question right or wrong, my original statement about myself is indeed true.”
          Yep that’s how it works. Why deny something so obvious? Did your wife or her family ohip you into some fundamentalist frenzy or did you just give in to try to keep the peace? None of my business. Just curious.
          “5) The Biblical manuscripts and non-Christians’ accounts, like Josephus’ account an d Tacitus’s account.”
          The biblical manuscripts are religious texts not historical documents. You probably know that those entries in Joesephus are forgeries but I will grant them as your best extra-biblical evidence anyway because it’s all you have. These are still hearsay and not even second or third hand hearsay and 6-9 decades too late. It must be humiliating to try to foist those on me. The Tacitus fraud doesn’t even mention Jesus just that there were some people who believed in a Chrestus, a fairly common title back then. People in Salem believed in magical witches but that doesn’t mean they existed.
          “Umm, the statement is true. Just because you deny the facts, doesn’t make your statement “true”. As you say, “Name it and claim it”. Name several scholars in this area that agree with your statement.”
          I don’t care who agrees with me. I’m right. I paid my dues I know what I am talking about.
          “Do you realize that manuscripts with writing on it are as “hard” of evidence as a rock with writing on it and coins with writings on it?”
          Not necessarily. You’re talking about a time when almost all writing was mythological and written just like the Bible is. We have no historical manuscripts containing tales of the supernatural or dialog. You’re going to find this out when you go looking for it and come up dry. You should have learned this in the 5th grade when the teacher read from Homer.
          “Based on “and we have no witness to their existence until 170-180 CE”, it sounds like you haven’t heard of Tacitus. He was a Roman historian (and Senator) born in the mid first Century and mentioned Jesus in his writings in the early second Century, more than 50 years prior to your “all we have are the gospels”.
          I can tell you’ve never read Tacitus but got your misinformation from some apologetic website. These people are liars and they make fools out of you thumpers when you try to pass their lies off to people who know better. Tacitus never mentioned Jesus by name. Tacitus only reported on the existence of Christians who believed in a Chrestus and this is supposedly from the Second Century. However no one ever heard of or saw this entry until the 15th Century when it turned up in the hands of the Church the world’s largest fabrication factory. Google it and you can find proof that it is a forgery. Scientific proof.
          By the way, Jesus’ tomb is empty. I’m not sure what you’re expecting to find there. He is risen! 🙂
          Really? Where is this tomb with a sign that says “Jesus slept here” or “Jesus went into suspended animation for your sins here” or whatever? No tomb and no witnesses either. No reports of any resurrection from outside the Bible. So the central event for your superstition is an article of faith and not an historical event that could ever be verified. Can you please just admit that much? And if Jesus is alive as you claim then he is he actually didn’t pay that steep a price if you think about it. But alas, thinking isn’t allowed in Christianity. That’s the most destructive Christian teaching, that some things are above questioning and to do so is sinful. Brainwashing and you’re a great example of that.
          6) Have you considered applying your reasoning to yourself?
          Of course. I know what it would take to change my mind. Do you? What would that take?
          For your statement of “You never studied biology.”… come on… prove it. As you like to say, claim it. You’ve made a statement, now prove it. LOL, I have bachelor’s degree in biology, but according to you I’ve never studied biology.
          I went to college to. Only had a semester of biology at a Christian college. There the professor said human evolution is the best documented science we have. It’s the only thing we’re absolutely sure of. Nobody in the class raised their hands or wanted to argue about the rib woman story. I’ve never seen anything that would even hint the professor even might be wrong. I guess the Christians brainwashed me, the atheist, with their evolutionary theory. Huh?
          As to:
          “And like most Christians you probably haven’t read much of the Bible either.”
          Most Christians …what’s one more on your list?
          Have a nice day.
          I’ve read the Bible too. Finished the whole thing before my 6th birthday. It’s still as goofy and untrue today as it seemed when I was 5. Now don’t be a weasel. Produce the historical manuscripts containing mostly dialog between people all speaking in complete sentences. Or crawl back under your rock.

          • a.Christian.for.Ron.Paul

            1) By authoritative sources, I meant a definition or resource of some kind. I was not referring to a person. Appeal to authority is in reference to a PERSON and not things like definitions. I’m not appealing to an authoritative person, but rather I’m requesting an authoritative source.

            For example, if you said a bird has 8 legs and 14 eyes, I would request that you should me some evidence of that, whether by definition, a video, etc. This isn’t an appeal to an authoritative figure (like “My vet said they have 8 legs). It’s a request for evidence.

            You can’t make up stuff and expect people to believe you. You made up that a historical account can’t have dialogue in it. That’s nonsense, just like your reasoning.

            I don’t need to refute your nonsense. It’s up to you to state factually correct information and to back it up. The burden of proof is on YOU, not me. The person who makes a claim, like “Historical narratives never contain dialog”, is the person who has the burden of proof. The burden of proof is on YOU to back up YOUR claim. It’s not on me to refute it.

            And once AGAIN appealing to authority (an actual person that’s an authority) is not a fallacy in and of itself. Some appeals to authority are logical and some are fallacious. Go do some research on it before stating factually false information.

            And develop some consistency in your expectations and apply your standards to yourself. You’ve already appealed to authority several times (examples: colleges in your first reply, scientists in your second…and in your most recent reply you appealed to your biology
            professor).

            Hilter wasn’t a devout Christian. But from a person prone to making factually false statements, I’m not surprised you think that.

            2) Now you’re onto other factually false about homeschoolers. The truth is that statistically homeschoolers are better prepared for college (for example, they enter college with more college credits), enter with higher standardized scores on the SAT and ACT, and do better in college. But, Boris from the internet thinks he can make stuff up to sound smart.

            For the record, I was public schooled and still know that homeschoolers are better prepared on average than public schoolers on average.

            LOL, and the rest of your comment for #2 is complete nonsense. Your argument was clearly refuted, you have no defense, and you don’t have the humility to admit it.

            3) The FAIL is on your end, as usual. All of the colleges I mentioned are accredited and offer degrees in science. For example, Liberty is SACSCOC accredited and offers the following degrees:

            Biochemistry and Molecular Biology
            Biology
            General Biology
            General Biology with Teacher Licensure
            Biomedical Sciences (Pre-Med)
            Biomedical Sciences (Global Studies cognate)
            Biopsychology
            Cell & Molecular Biology
            Chemistry
            Environmental Biology
            Environmental Biology with Teacher Licensure
            Forensic Science
            Zoo & Wildlife Biology
            Zoology (including Pre-Vet)

            But, hey, Boris on the internet can make up whatever he wants in his imaginary world. He can’t even spend a few minutes to fact-check his own claims.

            4) I like how you completely ignored that I answered your test question correctly. But, hey, that’s typical of someone that ignores the facts and only tries to find things that support one’s position.

            5) Sorry, I can’t argue against such irrational nonsense.

            6) I’m not interested whether you went to college. You said I never studied biology. Prove it. You can’t, because you don’t know me. And if you knew me, you’d know I graduated with a major in biology at a college that taught evolution.

            You consistently make up stuff that you can’t back up.

            I have no more interest in discussing anything with you unless you acknowledge where you clearly were incorrect (for example, stating that every Christian college teaches evolution and that I never studied biology). You don’t have to agree with me on everything, but for stuff that’s clear, you should have the humility to acknowledge it and have a constructive discussion. Otherwise, it’s a waste of time.

            Hope you have another nice day.

          • Boris

            .Christian.for.Ron.Paul Boris • 4 minutes ago
            I liked it when Ron Paul told the truth about why the rest of the world hates us and why were attacked on 9/11 during the Republican debates. We should close most of our military bases. They’re way too expensive and only make us more of a target. Cut the offense budget in half and we can have free healthcare for everyone like every other civilized nation in the world. But Christians are more interested in killing people than helping them.

            “1) By authoritative sources…. The person who makes a claim, like “Historical narratives never contain dialog”, is the person who has the burden of proof. The burden of proof is on YOU to back up YOUR claim. It’s not on me to refute it.”

            Of course the fallacy in your demand is that I prove a negative. A critical thinker you are not but then if Christians could recognize logical fallacies there wouldn’t be any Christians. No dice. I’m stating a fact that you should have learned in the 5th grade and is common knowledge, at least among non-Christians who can read. I cannot find one historical narrative from antiquity that contains dialog, people, animals and demons all speaking to each other in complete sentences. I can’t find a single historical narrative that contains tales of the supernatural either. I’ve read a ton of stuff from this period so I know what history writing looks like. It looks like Philo, Herodotus, not a talking donkey story. The Bible is more like Homer a mindlessly violent and bloodthirsty myth. So if you say I am wrong prove it. Give me an example of an historical narrative that is mostly dialog, people all speaking to each other in complete sentences. You say they exist. Prove it. Of course we both know you already tried to find such a manuscript and have come up dry just like I said you would. So all the bluster and fallacious arguments will not hide the fact that you cannot produce what you claim exists, an historical narrative from antiquity that contains dialog, people, animals and demons all speaking to each other in complete sentences. Forget the supernatural claptrap. Just produce one with recorded conversations. Bunches of them all through the manuscript. Get to work, science boy. Where’s that demonstration? This is last chance before I call CHECKMATE. I don’t even know why I should give you another chance. We both know you’re wrong.

            “Hilter wasn’t a devout Christian. But from a person prone to making factually false statements, I’m not surprised you think that.”
            Hilter? Got spellcheck? Have someone show you how it works. Hitler’s own words prove you just made a false statement.
            “We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.” -Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933 [This statement clearly refutes modern Christians who claim Hitler as favoring atheism. Hitler wanted to form a society in which ALL people worshiped Jesus and considered any questioning of such to be heresy. The Holocaust was like a modern inquisition, killing all who did not accept Jesus. Though more Jews were killed then any other it should be noted that MANY ARYAN pagans and atheists were murdered for their non-belief in Christ.]Here Hitler uses the Bible and his Christianity in order to attack the Jews and uphold his anti-Semitism: “My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.” –Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942) – EvilbibleYou’re a liar for Jesus. Just like your brother Adolf.

            2) Now you’re onto other factually false about homeschoolers. The truth is that statistically homeschoolers are better prepared for college (for example, they enter college with more college credits), enter with higher standardized scores on the SAT and ACT, and do better in college. But, Boris from the internet thinks he can make stuff up to sound smart.

            References please. You just made THAT up and you know it.

            For the record, I was public schooled and still know that homeschoolers are better prepared on average than public schoolers on average.

            Another baseless claim. Just like all the claims the Bible makes.

            3) The FAIL is on your end, as usual. All of the colleges I mentioned are accredited and offer degrees in science. For example, Liberty is SACSCOC accredited and offers the following degrees:

            One Christian school. Jerry Falwell U! It just doesn’t get any funnier than that! A tier 4 school by the way, the lowest ranking possible. Just like Regent or Pat Robertson U is. Oh yeah, big fail for me. You thought all the Christian schools were teaching magic as science so the fact that you got a shock finding out you were wrong is good enough for me.

            4) I like how you completely ignored that I answered your test question correctly. But, hey, that’s typical of someone that ignores the facts and only tries to find things that support one’s position.

            I did not. I said that’s how it works. Then I asked if your wife whipped you into a fundy frenzy. Comprehension is not your thing. I know.

            5) Sorry, I can’t argue against such irrational nonsense.
            No but you sure can believe it, man from dirt, rib woman science boy.

            “6) I’m not interested whether you went to college. You said I never studied biology. Prove it. You can’t, because you don’t know me. And if you knew me, you’d know I graduated with a major in biology at a college that taught evolution.”
            And now you most likely ask people if they want fries to go with their meal while wearing a paper hat. I tracked down the last Internet “scientist” I talked to working at Best Buy. I have no reason to think you’re doing any better.

            “You consistently make up stuff that you can’t back up.”
            Give me an example. You make excuses for believing crap that can’t be backed up.

            I have no more interest in discussing anything with you unless you acknowledge where you clearly were incorrect (for example, stating that every Christian college teaches evolution and that I never studied biology). You don’t have to agree with me on everything, but for stuff that’s clear, you should have the humility to acknowledge it and have a constructive discussion. Otherwise, it’s a waste of time.

            Yeah you were right on two non-issues. Nit-pick, that’s what you creationists do when you lose on the major points like you just did. Yes 4 Bible colleges don’t teach evolution. Why would they? I don’t know if you studied biology or got your answer off Index to Creationist claims. How would I?
            “Hope you have another nice d”
            Every day is an atheist holiday. And don’t forget to produce those historical narratives you seem to think exist. Even though no one has ever seen one. Just like the Satans, Jebuses, angels, demons, devils you believe in that no one has ever seen either.

          • a.Christian.for.Ron.Paul

            1) I don’t have to prove anything. The burden of proof is on YOU to back up
            YOUR claim. You’re being intellectually lazy when you expect people to
            disprove your claim, rather than you providing proof for yours.

            It’s not common knowledge, because you made it up. I even tried doing some research on your claim and could find 0 support for it. There is no fallacy in demanding proof for an unsubstantiated claim. The reason why you can’t provide any proof is because you don’t have any. If it were common knowledge, you’d be able to point to an authoritative source (again, I’m not asking for an authoritative person).

            Proving a negative using definitions and authoritative sources is VERY easy for those that have true claims. But, you make up complete rubbish, so that’s why you can’t back it up.

            I’m done on this point. There’s no point in arguing with someone who makes up stuff and then expects me to disprove them every time.

            As to your Hitler brain-washed nonsense, you can throw that in the trash too.

            2) I don’t make up stuff like you.

            If you took 2 seconds to google “homeschoolers SAT scores” for example, you’ll see MANY sources. But, since you’re lazy, I’ll spoon feed you some examples. Keep in mind that the comment policy here at Stream doesn’t allow posting of links.

            – The Correlational Relationship Between
            Homeschooling Demographics and High Test Scores by Johnna Burns at Northeastern State University. The PDF is published at the US Department of Education’s website.

            – Progress Report 2009: Homeschool Academic Achievement and Demographics by Dr. Brian Ray published at HSLDA

            – Cogan, Michael F. (2010, Summer). Exploring academic outcomes of homeschooled students. Journal of College Admission, Summer 2010

            3) You originally stated “Every Christian college and university in the world that teaches life sciences teaches evolution”. You were adamant about it! And you asked me to give you one college that didn’t (thus shifting the burden of proof on me). I did that and proved you were wrong. I’m glad you realize now that you’re wrong, but it’s unfortunately you’re so prideful that you instead turn to mocking.

            There are many more Christian colleges that teach Creationism for their science curriculum. I listed 3 more that you can research. There are more beyond those.

            4) Check out your “Yep that’s how it works.” in the context that you wrote. You wrote it immediately after quoting my comment:
            “But either way, whether I get your question right or wrong, my original statement about myself is indeed true.”

            So it’s not my comprehension skills that are the issue, but rather your written skills. It would have been more clear if you wrote “Yep, you got the answer right”.

            But, thanks for the new clarification! It’s appreciated.

            6) LOL, so you can’t prove what you initially claimed and now you decide to make another comment that you can’t prove. Go read my first reply in this discussion, since you have such a bad memory. You’re wrong about where I’m likely to be working, but, hey, what else would I expect from Boris from the internet?

            Thanks for at least admitting those two! There’s some level of progress and honesty to continue discussing some things with you, although you do tire me out with your constant nonsense and red herrings 🙂

            As to two non-issues? Your initial comment was how children that learn about creationism are going to be working at minimum wage and fall away from the faith once they learn about evolution because every Christian college teaches evolution. Earth to Boris: that was your main point and that’s basically been refuted.

            You haven’t won on any points. It’s only in your imagination you’ve won. If you read through our discussion and honestly examine them, you’ll see that you consistently make up stuff and then demand that I disprove you. Intellectual laziness at its finest.

          • Boris

            CHECKMATE. You lost ANOTHER debate with an atheist. We atheist’s remain undefeated. Atheism is inevitable. We will be the majority in 5 years or less. You Bible thumpers had better hope we don’t treat you the way you treated us for the last 2000 years.

          • a.Christian.for.Ron.Paul

            1) I don’t have to prove anything. The burden of proof is on YOU to back up YOUR claim. You’re being intellectually lazy when you expect people to disprove your claim, rather than you providing proof for yours.

            It’s not common knowledge, because you made it up. I even tried doing some research on your claim and could find 0 support for it. There is no fallacy in demanding proof for an unsubstantiated claim. The reason why you can’t provide any proof is because you don’t have any. If it were common knowledge, you’d be able to point to an authoritative source (again, I’m not asking for an authoritative person).

            Proving a negative using definitions and authoritative sources is VERY easy for those that have true claims. But, you make up complete rubbish, so that’s why you can’t back it up.

            I’m done on this point. There’s no point in arguing with someone who makes up stuff and then expects me to disprove them every time.

            As to your Hitler brain-washed nonsense, you can throw that in the trash too.

            2) I don’t make up stuff like you.

            If you took 2 seconds to google “homeschoolers SAT scores” for example, you’ll see MANY sources. But, since you’re lazy, I’ll spoon feed you some examples. Keep in mind that the comment policy here at Stream doesn’t allow posting of links.

            – The Correlational Relationship Between
            Homeschooling Demographics and High Test Scores by Johnna Burns at Northeastern State University. The PDF is published at the US Department of Education’s website.

            – Progress Report 2009: Homeschool Academic Achievement and Demographics by Dr. Brian Ray published at HSLDA

            – Cogan, Michael F. (2010, Summer). Exploring academic outcomes of homeschooled students. Journal of College Admission, Summer 2010

            3) You originally stated “Every Christian college and university in the world that teaches life sciences teaches evolution”. You were adamant about it! And you asked me to give you one college that didn’t (thus shifting the burden of proof on me). I did that and proved you were wrong. I’m glad you realize now that you’re wrong, but it’s unfortunately you’re so prideful that you instead turn to mocking.

            There are many more Christian colleges that teach Creationism for their science curriculum. I listed 3 more that you can research. There are more beyond those.

            4) Check out your “Yep that’s how it works.” in the context that you wrote. You wrote it immediately after quoting my comment:
            “But either way, whether I get your question right or wrong, my original statement about myself is indeed true.”

            So it’s not my comprehension skills that are the issue, but rather your written skills. It would have been more clear if you wrote “Yep, you got the answer right”.

            But, thanks for the new clarification! It’s appreciated.

            6) LOL, so you can’t prove what you initially claimed and now you decide to make another comment that you can’t prove. Go read my first reply in this discussion, since you have such a bad memory. You’re wrong about where I’m likely to be working, but, hey, what else would I expect from Boris from the internet?

            Thanks for admitting those two! There’s some level of progress and honesty to continue discussing some things with you, although you do tire me out with your nonsense and red herrings 🙂

            As to two non-issues? Your initial comment was how children that learn about creationism are going to be working at minimum wage and fall away from the faith once they learn about evolution because every Christian college teaches evolution. Earth to Boris: that was your main point and that’s basically been refuted.

            You haven’t won on any points. It’s only in your imagination you’ve won. If you read through our discussion and honestly examine them, you’ll see that you consistently make up stuff and then demand that I disprove you. Intellectual laziness at its finest.

          • Boris

            You failed to produce one single historical narrative that contains dialog, people all speaking to each other and talking animals and demons as well. You failed to produce a single historical narrative that contains tales of the supernatural. If any existed you could produce them and surely would have. That right there is the ultimate authoritative source the fact that you cannot provide these manuscripts. The Bible is written exactly like the other ancient Near Eastern mythology from that period. Using your standards for historicity which seem to be “If someone wrote it we must all believe it to be true” the Koran is an historical document and we have no reason to doubt any of it. This holds true for the Bhagavad Gita, the Indian scriptures as well. Both these books claim to be true another thing that no one should doubt. Right? So how did you decide which religion to pick since all of them are true according to your own standards for historical method? You seem to be in a bit of a pickle here as you’re in as much danger of winding up in the Muslim hell as anyone else is in winding up in the Christian hell. Perhaps you should study God’s Word, the Final Edition, the Koran. And when you figure out why you’re not going to bother reading the Koran carefully and why you reject these other holy books as historical narratives you will understand why I reject yours. Get a copy of ANET Ancient Near Eastern Texts and you can see for yourself where these stories actually came from, not to mention the style which is very different from Gaelic Wars and just like the Bible. Tales of the supernatural and word for word conversations galore. You don’t believe they’re historical narratives do you? Why not? For the same reason almost no one thinks the Bible contains historical narratives. They’re just like the Bible. All of the stories were borrowed from other older neighboring countries, NONE of them are original to the Hebrews they are all drawn from other sources. Archaeology and the study of Comparative Religion has already proved that. You are a fact denier living in a creationist bubble. A great resource that illustrates this is Myth, Legend, Custom and Folklore in the Old Testament by Theodor Gaster. About 200 stories that are in the Bible are traced back to their original sources. 101 Myths of the Bible is also a great resource because it comes from archaeological research, mostly with the Egyptian Coffin texts and shows the Egyptian influence on Hebrew and Christian mythology. Horus was “the truth and the life” 2000 years before any stories about Jesus appeared. You are an example of intellectual dishonesty at is most disgusting.

          • a.Christian.for.Ron.Paul

            You apparently have difficulty understanding. Let me make it shorter for you. The burden of proof is on YOU to support YOUR claim.

            You’re being intellectually lazy when you expect people to disprove your claim, rather than you providing proof for yours.

            Proving a negative using definitions and authoritative sources is VERY easy for those that have true claims. But, you make up complete rubbish, so that’s why you can’t back it up.

          • Boris

            You said. “You made up that a historical account can’t have dialogue in it.” See if this can penetrate your “armor of God” your defenses against critical thinking and free inquiry. All you have to do now to prove me wrong is produce one single historical manuscript that contains dialog, people all speaking to each other, to demons, to angels, to talking animals in complete sentences. You should be able to find lots and lots of talking animals in real historically accurate narratives right? The Bible is written just like all the other Near Eastern mythology from that period. You lost the debate. My real name is not Boris. You people have another name for me. You call me Satan. You were unable to convince yourself of your own argument and now the doubt you got on this site to try to assuage only grows larger. You know what the penalty for doubt is don’t you? You don’t want to be stuck in a place like Church worshiping Dear Leader for billions of years. They told you it was a lake of fire but they lied. We’re going to party for all eternity. I’ll see you at your next destination. Welcome to Hell, your last address. Oh ha another soul is MINE!

          • a.Christian.for.Ron.Paul

            Yo Boris, look up “burden of proof”. YOU made a claim and it’s your responsibility to support YOUR claim. The burden of proof is on YOU. The burden of proof is not on me to disprove your claim.

            NEWS FLASH: You can’t support your crappy claim, because it’s unsupportable.

            You made it up and can’t find ANY authoritative source (again, not a person but source) that supports your claim.

          • a.Christian.for.Ron.Paul

            Let me give you a hint. If someone were to take take this webpage, take a snapshot of it (including all its comments) and 300 years later it were used in a history book, what eight letter word that starts with “dia” and ends with “gue” would be featured in the history book?

          • Boris

            I can of course supply plenty of authoritative sources to prove my point. Such as these:

            “If the evidence supports the historical accuracy of the gospels, where is the need for faith? And if the historical reliability of the gospels is so obvious, why have so many scholars failed to appreciate the incontestable nature of the evidence?” – Robert W. Funk (1926-2005) Bible scholar, Chairman of the graduate department of religion, Vanderbilt University Founder in 1985 of the Jesus Seminar

            “From the hoary civilization [Egypt] comes the literature that ends all debate by offering incontrovertible evidence that the Gospels are not and never were histories. They are now proven to have been cryptic dramas of spiritual evolution of humanity and of the history of the human soul in its earthly tabernacle of flesh.” – Alvin Boyd Kuhn, Who Is This King of Glory?

            “The evidence suggests that the New Testament is not a history of actual events, but a history of the evolution of Christian mythology.” – Timothy Freke

            “the best historian the Hebrews produced [Josephus], said nothing about the life or death of Christ; nothing about the massacre of the infants by Herod; not one word about the wonderful star that visited the sky at the birth of Christ; nothing about the darkness that fell upon the world for several hours in the midst of day; and failed entirely to mention that hundreds of graves were opened, and that multitudes of Jews rose from the dead, and visited the Holy City? Is it not wonderful that no historian ever mentioned any of these prodigies?”-Robert Ingersoll

            “Religions are, of course, not not merely impostures… not even mere legends and myths… The resurrection of Adonis or Jesus serves not merely to celebrate the coming of spring [but to revive] morale in the celebrants.” – Edmund Wilson (1895-1972), preeminent American literary critic of the 20th Century

            “We cannot use electric lights and radios and, in the event of illness, avail ourselves of modern medical and clinical means and at the same time believe in the spirit and wonder world of the New Testament.” Rudolf Bultmann

            “Many things are narrated in Scripture as real, and were believed to be real, which were in fact only symbolical and imaginary.” – Spinoza

            “The archaeological evidence of the Bible is scarce. In fact, it is non-existent. After 200 years of Christian archaeologists digging up the whole Middle East, they haven’t found any proof of the Exodus of the Jews from Egypt, Hebrew Slaves or the Ten Plagues. NONE!!! And this from a nation of people who wrote EVERYTHING down in stone!!” – James F. Williams – founder and past president of Probe Ministries International. Holds degrees from Southern Methodist University (B.A.) and Dallas Theological Seminary (Th.M.).

            “Moreover, the Sermon on the Mount – supposedly the original monologue straight out of the mouth of the Son of God Himself – can be shown to be a series of Old Testament scriptures strung together, along with, apparently, such texts from Qumran. No “historical” founder was necessary at all to speak these words, as they are a rehash of extant sayings. (Even in this patent literary device the gospels cannot agree, as Luke 6:17-49 depicts the Sermon as having taken place on a plain.) – D.M. Murdock

            “After analyzing the Gospels under the historiographical criteria that I discuss above, however, they must be placed in a different literary genre than the actual historical works of antiquity.”
            Ancient Historical Writing Compared to the Gospels of the New Testament (2016) – Matthew Wade Ferguson

            However you will just wave your Christian magic wand and tell me that none of these people know better than you even though they all have the credentials to prove they do. I gave you what you asked for. Now it’s time for you to prove them all wrong first by reading the entire book by Matthew Wade Ferguson and refuting every word of it with solid evidence. Then stepping up to the plate like a man for the first time in your lonely miserable life and provide me with an historical narrative that contains tales of the supernatural and dialog, people all speaking to each other and talking animals and talking demons in complete sentences. If such narratives exist as your counter claim implies then prove it. You lose Dude. CHECKMATE. Go away Loser.

          • a.Christian.for.Ron.Paul

            Reasoning isn’t your strong suit, is it? Those don’t support your claim of “Historical narratives never contain dialog”.

            You’ve provided 0 support for that claim.

            Are you giving up on that claim and going on to something new, just like you’ve given up on several other claims (example: that I never studied biology, that all Christian colleges teach evolution, that homeschoolers don’t have better SAT / ACT scores than public schoolers”)?

          • Boris

            Okay I’ll rephrase my claim so you can understand it and also to illustrate just how much of a jam you are in. I have never seen one single historical narrative that contains tales of the supernatural and dialog, people all speaking to each other and talking animals and spirit beings in complete sentences. Neither have you or anyone else or you could have disproved that by now. I’ve read hundreds of them. I have no reason to believe such manuscripts exist and in fact neither do you. If I don’t see any milk in a bowl it’s safe to assume there isn’t any milk in the bowl. Where’s the milk? Where’s the narrative, the historical manuscript sprinkled with fairy stories and word for word conversations between people and people and fairies? How come you can’t prove me wrong? It would be so easy? Why haven’t you done it? We both know why. Jebus isn’t going to like that you could not defend the faith any better and I have a message from him for you: “I never knew you.” Now neither one of us wants anything to do with you. Produce the proof I am wrong or admit you cannot like a real man would do you sniveling whiny coward. You have the mind, manners and morals of a small, spoiled, ill-tempered child just like the God you grovel to. “No I don’t have to if I don’t want to. Nanny nanny boo boo.” That’s YOU. ROFL. Thanks for the laughs.

          • a.Christian.for.Ron.Paul

            That’s not a rephrasing of your claim, but OK, let’s go with your new one.

            You have seen such a historical narrative and so have I. The Bible is such a narrative.

          • Boris

            That is circular reasoning Fallacy Man. Absolutely no critical thinking skills whatsoever. ROFL. Unbelievable! Only other mythology is written like the Bible, not any historical narratives. Now I cannot waste anymore time with a babbling idiot like you. You’re even stupider than the other creatards whose faith I crushed like I just did yours. Bug off.

          • a.Christian.for.Ron.Paul

            OK, so I have no critical thinking skills, but yet I’ve disproven several of your statements so far in our conversation and you’ve disproven 0 of mine so far. Yep, in your imaginary world, I’m the one without the critical thinking skills.

            It’s not circular reasoning. It’s axiomatic.

  • a.Christian.for.Ron.Paul

    @Rachel Guyer , keep it up! You and your husband are doing an excellent job. It’ll pay off for eternity!

  • Boris

    15 Answers to Creationist Nonsense
    Opponents of evolution want to make a place for creationism by tearing down real science, but their arguments don’t hold up
    By John Rennie on July 1, 2002

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